K Chute Slide

its interesting to me to here the hostilities towards S&R. Up in Jackson I dont know anyone who holds them in such contempt. I also dont know anyone who would count on them to actually rescue a buried person. If patrol is closest to the scene they respond, stabalize, and try to simplfy the extraction. I've never heard reports of "dick-waving" and the S&R guys I know are the humblest family men around.
In these parts S&R & especially the Park rangers do AMAZING things, and they do everyday, especially in summer.
As far as this incident goes: these 3 created this scene and didnt want to sack up to it which made it worse. The fault is all theirs.

"Gotta respect SAR for sure, but when it's essentially a miscommunication/mix-up scenario, they shouldn't be looking to blame the skiers, who took care of themselves, ultimately needing no help. A false alarm is just that, and it's ugly when SAR/media can't just leave it at that."

But what about a false alarm caused by illegal actions and the lack of sack in owning up to it? It deserves to be ugly. Money was spent and wasted b/c these 3 didnt sack up and exit the scene, instead they hid.

http://www.coloradoml.com/mlsphotos/S343419_101_73.jpg

There's plenty of better shots of the sky chutes, but this pic shows how visible those chutes are from just about anywhere at Copper Mountain.

As in most clusterfucks, bad communication was the cause of the big scene at Copper. I'm sure we all prefer this series of events as opposed to the worse case SAR and the emergency crews were preparing for: that there was another group in there that triggered a different slide and got buried..

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Originally Posted by Summit

Should bodies be left to melt out in the spring as coyote food?

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If the alternative is putting members of search and rescue at a level of unacceptable risk, absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Stanley

"But what about a false alarm caused by illegal actions and the lack of sack in owning up to it? It deserves to be ugly. Money was spent and wasted b/c these 3 didnt sack up and exit the scene, instead they hid.

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First of all, its not illegal to ski that area. I understand they ducked a rope, but thats really irrelevant in the whole rescue scenario that ensued.

Second, money was wasted because they responded to an incident after the party in question requested to be left alone.

Third, What do you want them to own up to? Starting avalanches and hanging out in the woods are not illegal.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

I'm familiar with the path in question and I have seen all the photos/video of the slide. I don't care how visible it is. It is not the job of the Copper Patrol to monitor the bc. S&R should only be dispatched at the request of the party in question. Obviously that was not the case here. As a backcountry skier, I take 100% responsibilty for myself and partners and expect nothing else but to be left alone. Assuming that everybody needs to be helped is a crock-o-shit.

LSB,
Not sure about Summit County, but most S&R teams in CO are mostly volunteer. Unfortunately in my area (Routt County), the gung ho attitude that we've mentioned keeps many of the most experienced and skilled people from participating. Particularly the backcountry skiers.

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I agree almost totally, even if I don't know who you are. ? for anyone that knows, are patrols in anyway oblicated to respond?

I guess I don't agree that SAR should respond only when called. Sometimes that's not realistic.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Buy a SAR card! Support SAR and guarantee that you won't be charged

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Please clarify Summit. A COSAR card is not rescue insurance. It might be professional courtesy not to charge an individual with a COSAR card, but it does not offer immunity from restitution.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

but it's NOT illegal to duck a rope as long as you don't use the ski resorts chairs to get where you're going. IE-"we skinned up the mountain, go fuck yourself."

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I thought that the Forest Service permit actually allows the ski area to control access to surrounding out of bounds areas for everyone-even if you don't use the lift. Once you are within the ski area boundary, even if you skin up, you must obey the rules.


For what it is worth, I feel for you cmsummit. While I wasn't there, I do know the attitude of Copper Patrol. It's not a stretch of the imagination to see them jump over this situation.

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Originally Posted by phUnk

If they got arrested, it would have been for accessing the BC by ducking a Breck boundary rope, not just "for skiing."

:p

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So that's actually in violation of some statute? This seems really weird to me. Does anyone know the actual legalese that allows a cop to actually arrest you for ducking a rope? Is this just in CO?

How SAR is coming out of this looking bad is beyond me. The group did something really stupid by deciding to ski the chute that late in the day. I was skiing park at Breck that day and it was hot as shit out there at ALL elevations. CMSummit it's obvious you feel terrible about the situation and I'm glad you made it out alive, but you should have known better. After the slide the group did something very smart by calling Copper to let the patrollers know everything was ok and rescue was not needed. They did not know about the second slide, but when Copper saw it they overreacted and should have simply called the party back and asked if everything was ok. Why phone numbers were not exchanged is beyond me, or did the Copper patroller not even think to ask? The group then got worried about jobs, money and arrests (very realistic fears) and stayed in the woods for an hour trying to decide what to do. In the meantime SAR folks are pulled away from their lives to respond to the situation which is becoming more of a production every second the skiers stayed in the woods. Can you really blame them for being annoyed when the skiers finally came out of the woods? Bad decisions were made on all sides, but I don't see how SAR being a little pissed off is really the problem here.

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Originally Posted by seatosky

So that's actually in violation of some statute? This seems really weird to me. Does anyone know the actual legalese that allows a cop to actually arrest you for ducking a rope? Is this just in CO?

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If it's a FS closure, then yes it is illegal. I had the federales after me once, but the banditos got away. But that's another story.

And yes, as Junkie describes, COSAR cards are not insurance. As I've been told, no one in CO has ever been charaged for SAR. The lady on the phone at COSAR simply said you are paying to train,equip etc. SAR organizations. You could be charged for SAR either with or without the card, but having the card weighs the decision in your favor.

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Originally Posted by robokill1981

How SAR is coming out of this looking bad is beyond me. The group did something really stupid by deciding to ski the chute that late in the day. .

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Who gives a shit how stupid it was or was not to ski the chute? It was their choice and one they had a right to make.

As for sitting in the woods, please point me to the statute that says upon triggering an avalanche a party must immediately report in to S&R for debriefing. Thats just bullshit. A nice long safety meeting in the woods is probably just what those guys needed after the whole ordeal.

P.S. Robokill, just curious if you are a backcountry skier?

It is illegal in Colorado to cross a closed boundary. Maybe if CMsummit clarified how they went about exiting the Breck ski area boundary that would help. If they skied from the 8 summit down the penguins to whales tail and then over the Summit of Seven, then they violated a closed area inbounds. I'm not sure if Brecks permit boundaries are closed by Forest Supervisors order and ducking the ropes at the boundary is illegal or not, but there are closed signs all over the place at the summits and along the rope lines on peak 7 & 8.
It sounds like there could have been better communication all around here. When the tracks on the ground didn't match what the party in question was saying and there was a report of a second slide with tracks in and no tracks out, that led to a lot of confusion on the part of the SARS group. According to the reports, Copper got a (second? third?) call from the party sayingthat they where down and driving home when in fact they where still on the mountain. If this is true, then CMs party deserves a lot of the blame.
As has been mentioned, SCRG and the Sheriffs office where a little pissed when they found out CMsummits group had not been totally honest about where they where. If Copper patrol fueled the fire by exaggerating the report, then they should also review how they handled the situation and take steps to do a better job next time.
I know the folks at SCRG and flight for life do not want to be pulled away from their jobs, homes, etc for a comedy of errors like this. It seems to me that CMs party, because they knew they had done something illegal at Breck was a bit more evasive in their communication than they should have been and maybe Copper could have done a better job at getting good information. Over all, I think it will always be better to err on the side of deploying the rescue mission than not. If someone (maybe you) where wrapped around a tree with a broken femur, I'd imagine you'd feel the same way too.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Who gives a shit how stupid it was or was not to ski the chute? It was their choice and one they had a right to make.

As for sitting in the woods, please point me to the statute that says upon triggering an avalanche a party must immediately report in to S&R for debriefing. Thats just bullshit. A nice long safety meeting in the woods is probably just what those guys needed after the whole ordeal.

P.S. Robokill, just curious if you are a backcountry skier?

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You are right it was their decision, but I can understand why the SAR guys were a little annoyed. I don't blame it all on the skiers though, the patrollers at Copper should have some protocal for a situation like this. Getting cmsummit's phone number would have been the easiest thing to do and probably solved all these problems. I don't know anyone from Copper's partol but it sounds like they really messed this situation up. I agree that a safety meeting would have helped, but during that hour SAR was mobilizing which led to them being even more annoyed when the skiers came out. In the end who cares if their was some dick waving going on anyway, everyone is alive and no one is getting in serious trouble.

I would say I've spent half of my days this season in the backcountry.

Is there any snow left in the K chute? I'm thinking about hiiting it up this weekend and building a kicker at the bottom to road gap 91.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

(...)
And yes, as Junkie describes, COSAR cards are not insurance. As I've been told, no one in CO has ever been charaged for SAR. The lady on the phone at COSAR simply said you are paying to train,equip etc. SAR organizations. You could be charged for SAR either with or without the card, but having the card weighs the decision in your favor.

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Foggy, you are correct wrt COSAR card (lifted from Alpine SAR webpage):

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What good is a COSAR Card, a sportsmen's license or vehicle registration?

They protect your safety by ensuring, through grants, that a trained and equipped search and rescue team exists and is standing by, should you ever need it. And it gives each county sheriff a pool of reimbursement money if an and infrequent large, long or expensive mission occurs.

It does not "insure" you against a bill for a helicopter (you should expect a bill for a medical helicopter, just as a n ambulance), or for rescue operations, or for a multiple day search: there is no bill for search and rescue team's services in Colorado.

It is Colorado's financial safety net that protects rescuers and sheriffs, by ensuring a sheriff's department can afford occasional expensive mission costs; and by equipping and training Colorado's SAR volunteers.

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(snip)

Most SAR teams in CO are MRA accreddited and they obide by MRA stance on charging for rescue, i.e. "volunteer teams of MRA are proud to be able to provide search and rescue at NO cost and have NO plans to charge in the future"

http://www.mra.org/pay_resq.html

It should be noted, however, that SAR activities are responsibility of local sheriff who, in some cases, may want to recoup the cost of rescue as it was the case about 2 years ago when a climber in Clear Creek got rescued by fire department and per news report was given a bill for rescue.

Zobbe Jong, The boundary violation is irrelevant to the rescue. Had the skiers called S&R and requested help, then people would have reason to be pissed. Because these guys did the exact opposite and said they were fine, those guys owe nothing nor expected anything from the rescue party.

If I had a broken leg like you say, and actually needed help(have not needed so in the past when dealing with broken/compound fractured bones in the bc), I would call and request it. Until then, they should stand down.

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

i don't know what you saw yesterday but my experience probably differed vastly from yours. i do know however that their job is a tough one and they often have to cut up and make light of the situation sometimes just to keep sane and do the job. it is probably a great relief for the SAR members when they arrive and realize that they won't have to pull a body out of the snow. at that point they will probably cut up a little and get a little ticked because they were pulled away from their lives for a miscommunication. they just have to make the best of a bad situation and we should recognize that.

i'm not speaking to how patrol may or may not have acted. i don't know how those guys are there. this was in reference to the guys pulled away from their non-snow jobs etc.

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Very true. This is how most emergency workers deal with the stress. Morbid humor is almost a prerequiment. EMS, SAR, whoever, all make morbid jokes to keep their spirits high. They try to do it when sensitive ears are not present. It's a way to deal with things and given that one person who is ragging on SAR has told me he wouldn't want to have to do the tough stuff that SAR deals with...

Think about it from their point of view. You were at work, with family, skiing, whatever. BEEEEEEEEEEEP! You got called away to save someone. 3 people buried? You mentally steele yourself to deploy to a potentially dangerous debris field where you may be all evening and the next few days looking for dead bodies. Your training clicks in. Then you are relieved to find out that everybody is safe, you don't need to go into harms way, there are no bodies to dig up. Smiles all around. The relief turns to a bit of annoyance when you find out that it was all for not and the people were hiding in the trees.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

S&R should only be dispatched at the request of the party in question.

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Especially if they are buried. Don't forget to request SAR when you are 3 feet under. :rolleyes2

DD, do YOU ski the backcountry at all? Because if you do you are well aware that the victims may not be in a situation to call for help due to injury, incapacitation (burial), or lack of communication devices! This is why SAR will respond to a call of tracks in, no tracks out. Nobody may be unburied to call for help.

DD, you need to understand the confusion of this situation, the conflicting and false reports that didn't add up, this all lead to SAR being unsure whether there were perhaps other people on the mountain, perhaps another party that was buried. Once CMsummit's group made the decision to call Copper Patrol, they had an obligation to be truthfull and thorough (though they could still remain anonyomous). They were not, and clearly miscommunication ensued and led to the situation that occurred. Blaming SAR is BS.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

LSB,
Not sure about Summit County, but most S&R teams in CO are mostly volunteer. Unfortunately in my area (Routt County), the gung ho attitude that we've mentioned keeps many of the most experienced and skilled people from participating. Particularly the backcountry skiers.

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I've only met some people from the Routt dog team and they were easy going and very professional.
Summit County is 100% volunteer.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

As for sitting in the woods, please point me to the statute that says upon triggering an avalanche a party must immediately report in to S&R for debriefing. Thats just bullshit. A nice long safety meeting in the woods is probably just what those guys needed after the whole ordeal.

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And what about calling and lying to SAR about your location, then hiding when they were dispatched.
:rolleyes2

Was SAR able to see the people on the mountain, it would be clear an additional possible party was safe. Otherwise SAR could only see a second slide with no tracks and the reporting party saying they were clear... that necessitates a search of the second field.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Third, What do you want them to own up to? Starting avalanches and hanging out in the woods are not illegal.

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They made a stupid skiing decision, called Copper Patrol (good move), lied to Copper Patrol about their location (bad move), this probably contributed to Copper Patrols miscommunication problems, refused further information (per CAIC), then made themselves not visible (had they been visible the rescue could have been called off much earlier), SAR could only go "things do not add up here, perhaps there were separate groups or something, we have to investigate and treat it as a full on mission. SOP" especially with the unreported second slide!

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Originally Posted by Stanley

its interesting to me to here the hostilities towards S&R. Up in Jackson I dont know anyone who holds them in such contempt.

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The person who holds the most contempt bases it on an incident which he has chosen not to mention because of how it would cast him. :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by stanley

As far as this incident goes: these 3 created this scene and didnt want to sack up to it which made it worse. The fault is all theirs.

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I would say miscommunication contributed to the situation as well, but otherwise, yes.

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Originally Posted by Lone Star

If the alternative is putting members of search and rescue at a level of unacceptable risk, absolutely.

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I agree 100%. However, this is not what Blurred was addressing at all.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

And yes, as Junkie describes, COSAR cards are not insurance. As I've been told, no one in CO has ever been charaged for SAR. The lady on the phone at COSAR simply said you are paying to train,equip etc. SAR organizations. You could be charged for SAR either with or without the card, but having the card weighs the decision in your favor.

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As I understand it:

Some people have in fact been charged for SAR. It depends where you are and the policy of the local group.

The way the COSAR card insures you is that if you are helped by SAR and hold the COSAR card (or equivelent such as boating registration, snowmobile registration, fishing license, hunting license, etc) the SAR organization and others involved are eligable to recoup part or all of the cost of the rescue from the Colorado State fund. If you don't have this card, the SAR group has no way to recoup funds from the state SAR fund. A helicopter taking off costs $500 alone.

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Clearly there was a miscommunication and the groups decision lie about their location combined with not making themselves visible made it impossible for the rescue to be cancelled (as they often are in other situation). I think the people hating on SAR need to take some perspective on the issue.

Robokill1981 put it best.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

The boundary violation is irrelevant to the rescue.

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that may be the case in colorado but i believe utah might be different. aside from that, your insurance company will take your illegal actions into account when deciding to pay off on both the life flight and subsequent fees or injuries you may have received by accessing terrain illegally. that is why the accident report is needed before insurance pays anything.

Summit I'll sure rest easier now knowing you guys have my back. :rolleyes:

If I buried three feet under, then my partners will save me or I will die. I'm comfortable with that. If they make the decision about whether or not your assistance will be of any help, then they will ask for it. If you do not receive a request from them, then stand the fuck down and mind your own business.

Slightly OT,
This reminds me of a couple of summers ago when my buddies and I were up on the upper elk box(roadside class 5+ burl), when my buddy gets his ass knocked off and swims out of the big falls. Meanwhile all the tourists are freaking out calling on cellphones for help and trying to get the guys that set safety to talk to whoever they called instead of effecting the rescue ourselves. We shortly got the situation under control with no problems other than a lost drain plug, booties and a few bruises. To us, it was not a big deal. To think that we would have depended on a S&R team that was based 30 miles away is freaking laughable. Unfortunately the 15 gapers assumed we needed outside help, after we told them to chill out. All we wanted was for them to get out of the way and let us do what we've spent our entire lives learning to do. I'd put that group of boaters rescue skills up against any swift water rescue team in the state. Hands down. People are responsible for there on actions and should be left alone unless help is requested..

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

that may be the case in colorado but i believe utah might be different. aside from that, your insurance company will take your illegal actions into account when deciding to pay off on both the life flight and subsequent fees or injuries you may have received by accessing terrain illegally. that is why the accident report is needed before insurance pays anything.

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APD,
Since the skiers did not request a helicoptor or any rescue, why should they or their insurance company pay anything?

Ha! Most swift water teams make winter SAR missions look like a well choreographed ballet. Wanna see something scary, put a fireman in a river.

Dirk, let me know when you've got all the wood outta Fish so the Front Rangers can get there creekin' on. Been down Cross yet? I'm itchin.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Summit I'll sure rest easier now knowing you guys have my back. :rolleyes:

If I buried three feet under, then my partners will save me or I will die. I'm comfortable with that. If they make the decision about whether or not your assistance will be of any help, then they will ask for it. If you do not receive a request from them, then stand the fuck down and mind your own business.

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And if your whole group is caugt? Incapacitated? Unable to communicate out?
I guess you know for certain that will never happen. You won't ever make a mistake. :wink:

Other groups have had their group completely buried and were reported by others. I guess we just shouldn't respond.

Say... if you are in a car accident, the ambulance will be sure not to respond unless someone from your vehicle calls 911, nevermind if you are slumped over the steering wheel. :nonono2: :confused:

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I can't comment about most water rescue teams, but Summit County Water Rescue (100% volunteer, no FF or LEO) has an outstanding swiftwater contingent of avid river rats. The other half of the team are divers and the team is who 90% of the counties in CO will call first for mutual aid on a dive mission.

I agree with Foggy Goggles... FF in bunker gear + swiftwater = baaaaad shit waiting to happen (you see that on the news all the time)

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

APD,
Since the skiers did not request a helicoptor or any rescue, why should they or their insurance company pay anything?

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i'm not speaking directily to this incident but the general "rescue" situation. if there is an injury of some sort or if you have to take a ride from SAR then someone foots the bill. that's typically what insurance is for but they aren't always willing to open their pockets if they feel you did something illegal. that is why they wait for an accident report when one is available.

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Originally Posted by Summit

And if your whole group is caught? Incapacitated? Unable to communicate out?

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Keep trying cause I'm not buying. Whole group caught? Surely you can give me more credit than that.

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Keep trying cause I'm not buying. Whole group caught? Surely you can give me more credit than that.

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Since I don't know anything about you other than the less than mature attitude you've displayed and your pointless attacks on SAR and other public safety groups... nah... I'm not giving you much credit.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Since I don't know anything about you other than the less than mature attitude you've displayed and your pointless attacks on SAR and other public safety groups... nah... I'm not giving you much credit.

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I take offense at assholes like yourself, that think they need to help when help is unwanted. Mind your own business and I'll mind mine. You guys fucked up, jumped the gun, and expect somebody to be thankful of your efforts? Keep up the good work wannabe hero man. I'm sure it makes you feel cool. Just realize that there are people out there that have spent a lifetime developing skills and don't expect or need the help from people who have infinitely less experience and skill. There is not one person on our local S&R that could ski 1 day in the areas we frequent so I'm 100% reliant on the people in my party. I'm sorry you are offended by my attitude, but I just want to be left the fuck alone.

As far as I'm concerned SAR did the right thing giving the information they received from Copper Mtn. Ski Patrol.

Looked at my phone records last night:

2:47PM: Phone call put into Copper Mtn. ski patrol about an avalanche in the K chute. Triggered by one skier in a group of three, all parties involved are okay. Caller wishes to remain anonymous and is told to call ski patrol back when they are down.

3:30PM Phone call placed back to Copper Mtn. ski patrol, saying the group is down, out of danger, and okay.

Keep in mind that this second phone call was placed aprrox. 30mins after both avalanches occured. If we were in trouble, then why did we place a phone call 30 mins after all slides had occured to tell them we were ok? Big fucking deal that there were no tracks leading out. What if we had gotten out with no visible tracks? What then? Is it still protocol to waste resources when you have VERBAL CONFIRMATION of the safety of all parties involved. I should have called Summit Dispatch. I just thought that with the K chute so visible from Copper Mtn., that they would be the first ones to call it in anyways.

4:15pm: Another anonymous phone call placed by my brothers roommate to Copper Mtn. ski patrol to let them know that he had just spoken to the involved parties and all three were safe. Are we still in danger? What the fuck?