Tired of inserts...

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

oh comeon. yes, it's stronger. so many more factors more likely than the actual strength of the glue itself. fucking bunch of engineers getting all nerdy than using 5 year old shit.
http://www.devcon.com/prodfiles/pdfs/fam_tds_175.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/typical...al-properties/

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There are a couple of significant differences in the data cited, not just strength. How much depends on which of the West Systems you pick, but it looks like the toughness (energy absorbed before failure) of the WS runs 10-100x higher than the 5 minute stuff. (I'll spare you the math.) Fatigue failure is strongly related. All but the G-flex have much lower viscosity, too, which plays into how well they'll bond to small features. Does it outweigh keeping something on the shelf for 5 years? I don't know...not on my shelf. But the differences add up, and using 5-minute epoxy doesn't seem worth it.

This thread got hijacked early and ever since it's been about what might have gone wrong: lots. That doesn't mean any of these has to be perfect to avoid this failure, but the better you do at any of these things the worse you can screw up one of them and still have a working bond. Better epoxy=more margin.

Back to the degreasing question: any reason not to use citrus degreaser like I use on bike parts?

None at all as long as you don't leave orange residue behind. I'd rinse with alcohol after the citrus and let them dry.

im thinking of throwing inserts on a pair od skis that already have the bindings mounted with a few of the plastic expansion inserts due to stripped holes. does anybody know if the little plastic inserts are snaller than the steel inserts? Im guessing if so, the can just be drilled out easily, if theyre a larger diameter am i fucked?

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Originally Posted by cliffhucker

im thinking of throwing inserts on a pair od skis that already have the bindings mounted with a few of the plastic expansion inserts due to stripped holes. does anybody know if the little plastic inserts are snaller than the steel inserts? Im guessing if so, the can just be drilled out easily, if theyre a larger diameter am i fucked?

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BF and QK inserts are SMALLER than plastic/brass/helicoils. So you are outta luck unfortunately.
You are in T-nut territory now...

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Originally Posted by jono

Does it outweigh keeping something on the shelf for 5 years? I don't know...not on my shelf.

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my shelf (well, reasonably temperate garage) has performance issues in stored epoxy after 1-2 years. YMCV. And I posted that because the choice made in this thread was West G-Flex - not the other west products (which, I'd think, are preferrable not just in strength but you can get them in individual packets like this: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.Uoz5PJI9xAE - the refill 6-pack for $25 isn't a horrible price on a per mount basis) the biggest problem, ime, with the 5-minute crap is the plunge dispenser makes for shit mix ratios.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

my shelf (well, reasonably temperate garage) has performance issues in stored epoxy after 1-2 years. YMCV. [...] the biggest problem, ime, with the 5-minute crap is the plunge dispenser makes for shit mix ratios.

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Good to know. I didn't realize it could degrade that quickly. Thanks, Hugh.

I been nursing some 2 part G1 slowset for >5 yrs, it comes in 4oz bottles so it takes awhile to use up, when the bottle of epoxy resin solidifyed a bit I put it in a pot of hot water to reliquify and its stayed like that , maybe the stuff has degraded but so far in a number of apps not necessarily ski related repairs ... its never "not worked"

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Originally Posted by bern43

So I thought the newest version of Jon's inserts came "de-greased"?

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That's what I understood, but I can't seem to find the reference.

As a single data point, I somehow managed to blank that I was supposed to degrease inserts when I first started using them. I would say I have put in about 100 inserts and never degreased any of them. I had one do what the OP is experiencing.

Buy yer epoxy when you order inserts from jondrums.

I've installed over 1,000 BF inserts over the past two years. Did not de-grease any before installation. Used Loctite marine epoxy. Each ski has seen dozens of swaps. I've only had insert one come out, and it appeared that I just didn't use enough epoxy when I installed it.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

I didn't realize it could degrade that quickly

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It's temperature dependent. Keep it at (a relatively constant) room temperature, and it will last a long time. Temps at or below its freezing point -whatever that might be- makes it thick/lumpy, which will impair mixing. XXXer's heat trick should work for that, but I've never tried it myself.

The only issue I've ever had with 'old' epoxy is that it isn't suitable for cosmetic repairs eg. boats, because it turns yellow/brown.

Sucks that your two grand+ ski setup has bindings pull out because of twenty cent pieces of stainless steel.

I used the 24hr stuff that Jon sells with the inserts. Its not a brand name, but I don't think quality of epoxy is the issue. Getting it to bond to a drilled wood hole is the hard part. Maybe some compressed air would help clean out the dust. I just turned them over and whacked them.

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Originally Posted by BeardedClam

Sucks that your two grand+ ski setup has bindings pull out because of twenty cent pieces of stainless steel.

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Only $200 waybacks and $300 bindings, and all is easily fixable with a few more new inserts. I won't do it in the future though, not worth the pain in the ass.

I haven't been on nearly as much as usual this fall - sorry I'm late to the party. I agree - inserts aren't for everyone! All the inserts we've shipped over the last year are passivated and don't need to be cleaned, but it definitely doesn't hurt anything to do it.

Super-interesting thought about the bead-blasting helping adhesion - of course it would. Believe it or not, I've specifically tweaked the thread-rolling process to cause a rougher surface finish in the latest batch. They look like hell, but the epoxy grabs so much better.

I'm guessing either or both of two things went on here:
*it is kind of important to get enough epoxy in the threads before screwing in the insert - I use a toothpick to swirl it around in the hole and get it fully coated.
*too much crusty old loc-tite. I now recommend only vibra-tite and don't sell the loctite anymore.