Riding Giants - are you paying attention TGR?

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Originally Posted by gramps

Hopefully this Peter Jennings Productions thing will live up to it's potential - getting across the stories and complexity of ski-mountaineering along with some really good skiing footage... human powered and gnarly super-aggressive heli skiing.

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They've got the budget, they've done the homework, they've put in the time, they've covered all the bases. I think it will be good, perhaps better than anything we've seen to date. And the timing seems spot on. As we've reached a point in both sports where we are seeing incredible athleticism and progression of both activities.

Both Lou Dawson and McLean seemed quite impressed at their knowledge base on the subject, and the work they've put into obtaining it.

I think a cool part of their docu will be Coombs. As they will likely be covering everything this thread is talking about. His heli skiing and ski mountaineering. Both at incredibly high skill levels. Doug did it all, and we'll get to see it all in one place.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

They've got the budget, they've done the homework, they've put in the time, they've covered all the bases. I think it will be good, perhaps better than anything we've seen to date. And the timing seems spot on. As we've reached a point in both sports where we are seeing incredible athleticism and progression of both activities.

Both Lou Dawson and McLean seemed quite impressed at their knowledge base on the subject, and the work they've put into obtaining it.

I think a cool part of their docu will be Coombs. As they will likely be covering everything this thread is talking about. His heli skiing and ski mountaineering. Both at incredibly high skill levels. Doug did it all, and we'll get to see it all in one place.

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is this the same group that DC was filming with in a few locations this year? i thought it was for the big-mtn history....but the fact that it's in post-prod (as of...?) has me questioning that.

can never get enough footie of the man skiing.

he taught us so much, and it's great that the footage will live on to supplemental the memories of what our eyes saw the first time around.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Amen!

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i just need to take a moment as it's altogether rare for cj001f and i to be in total agreement.

can i get an 'amen'??

oh, er...wait...i've got one right above.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

is this the same group that DC was filming with in a few locations this year? i thought it was for the big-mtn history....but the fact that it's in post-prod (as of...?) has me questioning that.

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Thinks so.

They've emailed me a couple times looking for footage of this or that, and I think they are in post now.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Thinks so.

They've emailed me a couple times looking for footage of this or that, and I think they are in post now.

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then it should be pretty good. doug was pretty pumped on the filming last he spoke of it.

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Originally Posted by Twoplanker

If you haven't seen it, then for god's sake go see it. Fucking fantastic. :eek:

TGR, if you're not currently planning to make a documentary about the history of big mountain skiing, then you're missing out on a great opportunity to bring attention to the sport and your other films. Seriously. If nothing else, just hire Stacy Peralta and just hand over the footage to him.

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dude, "are you paying attention", that movie was like 2 years ago.

TH...pretty psyched to see that piton productions film!

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Heli descents negate 99% of the decision making process.

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How would you know?

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Originally Posted by Archie

How would you know?

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i think a more accurate statement would be that going with any guide (or most significantly more-experienced partners who do not share the decision-making process) negates 99% of the decision-making process.

i don't think TH's statement applies only to heli-accessed skiing...and, if it does, i disagree having been lucky enough to travel extensively in a heli & on foot.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

i don't think TH's statement applies only to heli-accessed skiing...and, if it does, i disagree having been lucky enough to travel extensively in a heli & on foot.

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It seems like it did, but whatever. I agree with you.

another side note: i saw some guy in a truck w/ "heli-free wasatch" & "backcountry.com" stickers heading up teton pass yesterday...

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Originally Posted by Archie

How would you know?

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Lets consider, for example, a ski descent of Teewinot in the GTNP. A 5,800 foot east facing 45-50 degree line. Pretty easy access.

Assumptions are: Stable snow, good spring weather, good flying weather.

By heli, you simply fly to the summit and land. Get out and ski when the snow softens up. Concerns.....
1. Will the conditions be skiable top to bottom?
2. Will I need to downclimb/rappel?


When you climb it first, you have to think about the following.
1. How long will it take to summit?
2. Will my summit time allow me to ski it safely, as the sun hits it first thing.
3. Will I be too fatigued to ski it safely?
4. Will the extra weight of crampons, harness, potentially rope and axes affect the speed of my ascent?
5. During the four hour ascent, will I get pegged by rockfall or avalanche?
6. Teewinot is non-technical, but if you had to belay a pitch or two, how much would that slow you down?


I the heli scenario, you are exposed for 30 minutes to objective hazard. In the climbing/skiing scenario you are exposed for 4.5 hours. Hence my comment about the decisions and logistics.

Now, if you were to go ski the Grand via heli or hike, those same factors get even more important.

Look, I'm not trying to degrade the experience of either activity. I'm just stating my opinion of what holds my interest.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I the heli scenario, you are exposed for 30 minutes to objective hazard. In the climbing/skiing scenario you are exposed for 4.5 hours. Hence my comment about the decisions and logistics.

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Not if you're heli skiing in Alaska for 4.5 hours in a private ship with your buds.
No decision making involved there.
99%? Right.

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Originally Posted by Archie

Not if you're heli skiing in Alaska for 4.5 hours in a private ship with your buds.
No decision making involved there.
99%? Right.

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No, 46.98% in that scenario.

Care to enlighten me? Or just continue to post replies with no useful information to give us insight on your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Superstar Punani

The big difference between surfing and skiing is that the surf world has generally embraced tow-surfing as the next evolution of surfing, unlike in skiing which seems to have more than its share of anti-heli, anti-snowmobile, anti-technological curmudgeonly luddites.

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Right. In surfing it's all about the ride, not about the wicked rip current you had to wrestle with to get in the line-up. Only the ride matters.

On a side note.........is it winter yet?
http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/215246.jpg

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

No, 46.98% in that scenario.

Care to enlighten me? Or just continue to post replies with no useful information to give us insight on your opinion?

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i think what archie is saying is that heli-skiing can involve digging pits; observing activity on similar aspects; carefully selecting what to ski and when based on aspect, elevation, etc.; accumulated knowledge from getting to hop on and off many slopes in a comparatively short period of time; using general discretion.

or it can mean blindly following a "guide" (which is also true for plenty of folks venturing out into the BC with their more experienced buddy who is still clueless).

either activity can involve serious decision-making and careful observation -- or can be performed with one's head up one's ass.

all things equal, time spent on the climb *should* cause someone to reflect more on the risks, but it's absolutely not always true.

sounds like you're comparing "serious mountaineers" vs. "rich guys who know nothing but can afford a heli". perhaps the more accurate comparison would be either:
"wide-eyed BC newbie" vs. "know-nothing heli skier"
-or-
"serious ski mountaineer" vs. "ski mountaineer who is using a heli for access on that day"

i think you'll find more similarities than differences in doing an apples-to-apples comparison, but it doesn't suit the argument as well.

(for what it's worth, 99% of my BC skiing is under my own power, because i enjoy the ascent and sense of accomplishment...but i've never turned down a free heli ride. well...i have turned that down but the timing wasn't all that great. :))

I love backcountry skiing but i do not want to watch people skinning. Nor do I want to watch people climbing sub WI3 ice w/skis on pack.

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Originally Posted by Orange Julius

Nor do I want to watch people climbing sub WI3 ice w/skis on pack.

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How about WI4?
http://fritzrips.com/Gallery1/albums...on/3_G_005.jpg

Maybe we can get Will Gadd to dry tool some M9+ to some heinous 60+ degree icy couloir. Then we'll all be happy.

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Originally Posted by Orange Julius

I love backcountry skiing but i do not want to watch people skinning. Nor do I want to watch people climbing sub WI3 ice w/skis on pack.

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just because i had fun at my friend's wedding doesn't mean i want to watch his wedding video.

i wouldn't want to see skinning for hours, but maybe a shot or two -- or done in the right way -- it could be palatable.

to be fair, if we're talking about watching top-level skiers descending huge faces, we need to compare that to some dicey/exposed/technical AScents, not merely skinning up a broad meadow or doing a few moves w/ crampons.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

sounds like you're comparing "serious mountaineers" vs. "rich guys who know nothing but can afford a heli".

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No, just simply the logistics encountered if one were to fly vs. climb Peak "A" under the exact same weather and snowpack. Not multiple peaks, just one.

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just because i had fun at my friend's wedding doesn't mean i want to watch his wedding video.

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What part of the wedding? The consummation? That might be worth watching. As long as no foreplay was shown, just the nitty gritty.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

No, just simply the logistics encountered if one were to fly vs. climb Peak "A" under the exact same weather and snowpack. Not multiple peaks, just one.

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instead of comparing an ascent of only "peak A", why not compare what goes on in a comparable time period.

one could argue the heli-assisted ski mountaineer got much more info in the 30 minutes than the ski mountaineer just starting his approach from the trailhead.

the "mountaineer" in your example is using all the tools available to him throughout his 8-, 16-, 24-hour day/ascent.

let's be fair: that same person would use all the tools/information available to him in the same time period, which might include flying to many similar locations and digging pits. (unless they're an idiot)

non-mike-wiegele heli-skiing can be a pretty serious endeavor. it ain't all about lobster bisque in the mountains.

too many variables are changing...the time period, the ability of the skier/mountaineer, the number of peaks ascended, what i ate for dinner.

let's all go skiing. anyone want a ride in my a-star?

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Originally Posted by upallnight

anyone want to ride my a-star?

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Thanks, but I'll pass on your A-star. ;)

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Thanks, but I'll pass on your A-star. ;)

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don't worry...i'll let you know where we're heading so you can ski our heli terrain first. :D

i believe motors have their place...just that if you are going to use 'em, use 'em to get further away.

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Originally Posted by HotTate

dude, "are you paying attention", that movie was like 2 years ago.

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I started this thread in January, about 8 months ago.