Bringing Back The Best: Lotii And Other Assorted Love Songs

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Originally Posted by meter-man

That's rad.

Wondering how to choose a BC110 v. a C113 for day-in, day-out, bigger touring days in the mountains seeking soft snow, ski. But sometimes, you encounter not soft snow. Kinda like a BMT 113 (halfway to a BMT 122?).

BC110 seems more like a shape I recognize (just wish it had a squared-off tail for easier skin-clip stay-on power). The C113 throws me for a loop though - is that a more versatile shape, at least in terms of when the snow firms up or you encounter weird BC crusts? I don't know what I think about the rearward mount point...been on lots of Moments lately, which are all much more center-mounted.

Which would surf and handle the powders better?

Looking for something that would do better in pow, be less cambered, and have a flatter (but not flat) tail than my current Wildcat Tour 108. Both seem to much closer to that idea, with the BC110 with 2mm of camber and the C113 with flat camber.

I have Praxis Yeti at 95 underfoot for post-consolidation/spring/summer skiing.

ETA: this is for a maritime snowpack - California Sierra Nevada. Definitely different from the Wasatch!

TIA, MO!!

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ok! Rapid fire:

(1) all carbon HL skis have a flat spot on the tail for skin retention. No rounded ends here.

(2) the 113 is much more directional … ski waist at -11 and a bit stiffer flex. The 110 is more progressive, ski waist at -6 and will be a notch softer than the 113. 113 is more a big mountain ski. 110 is more slarvy, pivoty, and surfy.

Coming off the WC tour, the C110 checks the boxes better IMO, just to be honest.

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Originally Posted by waveshello

The old 184 Devastator is my current DD and this resonates. In the NW I can ski it 75% of days and have a great time, but if it's very deep or firm there are other skis that become more fun. However... in the NW, you might find all of those conditions in one top to bottom lap, so even if you have a quiver, having a ski that is so versatile is a big plus.

Based on the shape, I think the FR110 could be a 90% ski for the NW, because it looks like there are some refinements that should make it behave better in conditions at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. So maybe that doesn't mean you ski it 90% of days, maybe that means it's really fun on 90% of the conditions you encountered on your run. The additional tip splay and taper at both ends should make it more fun/maneuverable in deep snow conditions. What appears to be a longer flat spot underfoot and full length rubber should make it more manageable/fun in firm conditions? Wondering how possible it is to improve a ski like the Dev in both directions without a compromise. If that's what the FL110 does, well that sounds pretty great.

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good observations on the design intent… which was (a) reduce the radius of the reverse camber slightly so that the edge engages a bit better in caved turns, but don’t loose the surfy/pivoty goodness of those skis and (b) because we can engage edge a bit more, add a bit more taper so the ski slices into light crust better, to compliment one of the strengths inharent to reverse.

and of course make them substantial enough to be super smooth, while keeping a nice round flex pattern that doesn’t beat you up. I am actually testing the stiffness and flex on a pair of FL113 now, while the 110 v molds are cut, and very excited to get the samples of the 110 in April for the end of the season.

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Originally Posted by m5d5cb

Is the idea for the subsequent round to be a Winter 24 delivery? (With the first round being Winter 23 delivery?)

I should probably just chat with you offline to see if a 186cm works for me. That's only ~2.3" and it already sounds like this may ski shorter given the reverse rocker.

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I am awaiting confirmed delivery timing from the factory, but the current estimate is Dec 1 2023 shipping for the open preorder.

regarding questions, of course email me any time, but it’s always great to talk em through publicly too, as many folks have similar q’s, so helpful as well!

on sizing, the ski is progressively mounted, and pretty rockered, so not that different from a traditional 180 ski, but I don’t exactly remember what you are on and if it makes sense for the 186. But always keen to talk it through!

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

ok! Rapid fire:

(1) all carbon HL skis have a flat spot on the tail for skin retention. No rounded ends here.

(2) the 113 is much more directional … ski waist at -11 and a bit stiffer flex. The 110 is more progressive, ski waist at -6 and will be a notch softer than the 113. 113 is more a big mountain ski. 110 is more slarvy, pivoty, and surfy.

Coming off the WC tour, the C110 checks the boxes better IMO, just to be honest.

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Thanks Marsh, very useful. That's what I had gleaned too. Planning to go BC110.

Sorry to be a pain, but at least to my eyeballs, the image of the BC110 sure looks like it has a rounded tail, at least as compared to the obviously squared-off tail of the C113.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

I am awaiting confirmed delivery timing from the factory, but the current estimate is Dec 1 2023 shipping for the open preorder.

regarding questions, of course email me any time, but it’s always great to talk em through publicly too, as many folks have similar q’s, so helpful as well!

on sizing, the ski is progressively mounted, and pretty rockered, so not that different from a traditional 180 ski, but I don’t exactly remember what you are on and if it makes sense for the 186. But always keen to talk it through!

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Sorry for the lack of clarity in my question... I was asking in response to your comment about more length options being produced in subsequent rounds.
Will the subsequent round with additional sizes (such as a FR110 180cm) be ~Dec 2024 (the following season after this round)?

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Originally Posted by m5d5cb

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my question... I was asking in response to your comment about more length options being produced in subsequent rounds.
Will the subsequent round with additional sizes (such as a FR110 180cm) be ~Dec 2024 (the following season after this round)?

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Aha! Yes sorry. I am not 100% sure, understanably, but somewhere between Spring and fall 2024 is the target for the 18x lengths.

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Originally Posted by meter-man

Thanks Marsh, very useful. That's what I had gleaned too. Planning to go BC110.

Sorry to be a pain, but at least to my eyeballs, the image of the BC110 sure looks like it has a rounded tail, at least as compared to the obviously squared-off tail of the C113.

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All good! The end has a bit smaller flat spot than the 113, so harder to see. Glad to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

ok! Rapid fire:

(1) all carbon HL skis have a flat spot on the tail for skin retention. No rounded ends here.

(2) the 113 is much more directional … ski waist at -11 and a bit stiffer flex. The 110 is more progressive, ski waist at -6 and will be a notch softer than the 113. 113 is more a big mountain ski. 110 is more slarvy, pivoty, and surfy.

Coming off the WC tour, the C110 checks the boxes better IMO, just to be honest.

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I was going to ask a similar question to MM, so thanks for the question and answer. What does the "ski waist at -11" mean? I only saw that come up with the BC - at -6 - but unfamiliar with what it means.

And since I haven't been on the BMT or a lot of other skis mentioned, would the C113 be closer to the DPS 112RPCs while the C110 would be closer to the 112RPs? I know it may be a gross oversimplification but I'm just going with the skis I've been on. Like MM, I'm looking for a ski for the bigger snow day in the Sierra; I have a DPS Wailer 99 as my daily touring ski. TIA.

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Originally Posted by fool

I was going to ask a similar question to MM, so thanks for the question and answer. What does the "ski waist at -11" mean? I only saw that come up with the BC - at -6 - but unfamiliar with what it means.

And since I haven't been on the BMT or a lot of other skis mentioned, would the C113 be closer to the DPS 112RPCs while the C110 would be closer to the 112RPs? I know it may be a gross oversimplification but I'm just going with the skis I've been on. Like MM, I'm looking for a ski for the bigger snow day in the Sierra; I have a DPS Wailer 99 as my daily touring ski. TIA.

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You got it man!
So the C113 is more like a skinnier 120mm pintail. Big turn radius, directional ride. Very versatile, surfy, can pivot, but more biased toward the fall line, skiing big turns on open terrain, and probably need to be a pretty strong skier to rip through trees.

The C110 is going to be dramatically surfier and pivoty-er as compared to the 113. Amazing in trees and way more playful. Pop and slash turns. So, the analogy to the 112 isn't wrong per-se, but it will for sure have more backbone and be a higher performance ski for a technically proficient skier.

Both skis (for different reasons) will be exceptional in windskin and solar affected, and recrystallized type snows.

I'd think of the 110 as a "modern" freeride shape and the 113 as a "classic/traditional" freeride shape. The RP vs RPC analogy isnt wrong per-se, but even more so. The 110 is even more modern than either of those, and the 113 is even more traditional.

Regarding the "ski waist" thing, that is essentially the engineered mid sole line's setback versus the mid-point of the ski.

Well, I suppose a FR110 is in my future. Trying to catch up here…are those available for delivery now? Or as a preorder? It isn’t time to buy skis, really. I need to buy a bike. BUT if I need to get in line…..

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Well, I suppose a FR110 is in my future. Trying to catch up here…are those available for delivery now? Or as a preorder? It isn’t time to buy skis, really. I need to buy a bike. BUT if I need to get in line…..

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Hey man, thanks for the interest. To answer your question, yes pre-order is open, with 12/1 expected delivery.

To help give context, in order to lock in an earlier delivery date than this year's run, I have to make a 50% deposit next week on the order forecast. I can trim back the # of skis made from this forecast, but I won't be able to increase it. Final numbers (ie no more changes to qty) are due to the factory 4/1, so pre-order will close then. My constraints are (a) how much $$$ I can put down right now and (b) how many pre-orders there are on 4/1. There might be 1-2 extra pairs of a few models beyond pre-orders, but that is it for this run.

To help incentivize the pre-order, there is a free shipping code to the end of the month, if anyone wants to benefit from it: PreOrderFreeShip

Well done, Marshal.

I have three pairs of LP105 (2x192 and 1x 184), a pair of Monster 98, and and I still want the FL105.

I think I want the bc90 as a all purpose touring ski


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I really like the look of the FR110. I'm wondering if this ski is longer than I'll want though. I'm 5'11, 175-180lbs. My DD is a Wildcat 108 or Wildcat both in 184 - they measure 182cm though. I don't really have any trouble there, but not sure I want to go longer.

Obviously 4cm isn't much, but I'm wondering how the FR110 might feel in comparison with maneuverability. My only other reverse camber experience is Lotus 138s (which are 192cm) and they're super easy to pivot, it sounds like the FR110 is similar but less extreme.

The 110 FR

Interesting. Looking at the rocker profile it’s kinda normal tip and tail splay. But from a bit underfoot it starts to slightly splay. Just a bit. Intriguing.

I’ve never ridden a sickle. Not even with a pickle. On my motorsickle.

But comparing that profile to the 132 (or 138 which I have ridden) those seem full banana. And 138 is crazy slarvy. But hard to ride inbounds. Unless you like fruit booting ski boards.

Otoh. The RP had decent slarve. The RPC could charge but kinda lost the slarve.

Looking at the profile. And the FR construction I’m hoping it’s a pow slarvable inbounds ski
Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Pinned

I really like the look of the FR110. I'm wondering if this ski is longer than I'll want though. I'm 5'11, 175-180lbs. My DD is a Wildcat 108 or Wildcat both in 184 - they measure 182cm though. I don't really have any trouble there, but not sure I want to go longer.

Obviously 4cm isn't much, but I'm wondering how the FR110 might feel in comparison with maneuverability. My only other reverse camber experience is Lotus 138s (which are 192cm) and they're super easy to pivot, it sounds like the FR110 is similar but less extreme.

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I think you'll be fine. With full reverse camber you can go a bit longer - they're pretty easy to noodle around on.

I had 190 wildcat 108's, which were fine but a bit of work in tighter spots. But I also had 191 whitedot dictators, which are stiffer than the wildcats but have a similar rocker profile to the FR 110's. The whitedots were quite a bit easier than the wildcats in tight trees.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I think you'll be fine. With full reverse camber you can go a bit longer - they're pretty easy to noodle around on.

I had 190 wildcat 108's, which were fine but a bit of work in tighter spots. But I also had 191 whitedot dictators, which are stiffer than the wildcats but have a similar rocker profile to the FR 110's. The whitedots were quite a bit easier than the wildcats in tight trees.

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Look at effective edge as well. The FR110 is falling right in the middle of a 179 and 184 wildcat 108. That combined with the full reverse camber should make it quite easy release/pivot/smear, etc. compared to the 184 108.

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Originally Posted by meter-man

Thanks Marsh, very useful. That's what I had gleaned too. Planning to go BC110.

Sorry to be a pain, but at least to my eyeballs, the image of the BC110 sure looks like it has a rounded tail, at least as compared to the obviously squared-off tail of the C113.

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Since the top sheet test prints just came through, here is a closeup on the tail for skin attachment. Hope it give a better idea on how it’ll look :)

kudos to Arild for nicely tucking it nicely into the shape!

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I think you'll be fine. With full reverse camber you can go a bit longer - they're pretty easy to noodle around on.

I had 190 wildcat 108's, which were fine but a bit of work in tighter spots. But I also had 191 whitedot dictators, which are stiffer than the wildcats but have a similar rocker profile to the FR 110's. The whitedots were quite a bit easier than the wildcats in tight trees.

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Thank you, this is what I needed to hear - think I'm gonna go for it.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Look at effective edge as well. The FR110 is falling right in the middle of a 179 and 184 wildcat 108. That combined with the full reverse camber should make it quite easy release/pivot/smear, etc. compared to the 184 108.

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Good call - the shorter effective edge is probably good in this case.

Marshal, what’s the stiffness on the BC 90 going to be like?


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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Marshal, what’s the stiffness on the BC 90 going to be like?


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I am targeting “extra medium”

mainly, I want them to be very fun and surfy, with enough backbone to cut through wind skin and such. unltimately, I think they will be comparable both stiffness and pattern-wise to the BMT stuff.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

I am targeting “extra medium”

mainly, I want them to be very fun and surfy, with enough backbone to cut through wind skin and such. unltimately, I think they will be comparable both stiffness and pattern-wise to the BMT stuff.

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That sounds great


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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

That sounds great


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one additional thought here is a “tip biased” flex pattern that this ski will have.

Traditional GS-derived all mountain skis have a tail-biased flex, where the tip is a bit softer and the tail is a bit stiffer. This is great for inbounds conditions and pure pow, but gets challenging in wild backcountry snow, as the snow can get more funky, and you just generally aren’t going as fast.

the biggest reason for making the BC90 in particular is because of how wrong the stiffness/flex pattern of most mid width touring skis are.

IMO, the #1 reason the BMT94 is legendary is because it nailed the flex pattern with a tip that slices (opposed to bending and pushing) into setup snow, and a tail that works really well with the reduced cuff leverage of touring boots (as compared to an alpine boot).

I am super excited about this ski, personally, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

one additional thought here is a “tip biased” flex pattern that this ski will have.

Traditional GS-derived all mountain skis have a tail-biased flex, where the tip is a bit softer and the tail is a bit stiffer. This is great for inbounds conditions and pure pow, but gets challenging in wild backcountry snow, as the snow can get more funky, and you just generally aren’t going as fast.

the biggest reason for making the BC90 in particular is because of how wrong the stiffness/flex pattern of most mid width touring skis are.

IMO, the #1 reason the BMT94 is legendary is because it nailed the flex pattern with a tip that slices (opposed to bending and pushing) into setup snow, and a tail that works really well with the reduced cuff leverage of touring boots (as compared to an alpine boot).

I am super excited about this ski, personally, to be honest.

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Is “extra medium” stiff about like the AM R99?


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FR110- trigger pulled.

WRG turned me on to reverse/Devastator Kool aid. I'm a dev devotee now. Daily driver. Picked up older heavy devs for backup. Have brand new lighter devs mouting dynafit.

The fr110 will be the daily when base is in, current devs will be early season skis.

Will be neat to see how the fr110 skis based on my solely skiing older devs.

More than happy to support this project. Ive been on this ski forum for almost 20 years. It's my only social media.

Rock fucking on peeps. FKNA.