Frank DeBerry, Crustal manager for Alterra fyi:
fdeberry@skicrystal.com
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Frank DeBerry, Crustal manager for Alterra fyi:
fdeberry@skicrystal.com
Will the credit card a person used to buy the pass go to bat for them on something like this if they contest the charge?
Regardless, be prepared to be blackballed from any IKON resorts if you do attempt it, corps don't look kindly at buybacks, even when justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfelot
I have had a series of exchanges with Frank. He has confirmed the reason for the reservation system is to allow families the ability to come up at 10am. He didn’t directly say it but I’m guessing a number of rich families complained that they weren’t able to get a Sat/Sunday spot because they left Seattle at 730.
The hilarious thing is I’m not even sure this solves the issue they intend to. Let’s say I am unable to get a weekend reservation on a particular day. I’m just going to drive up and ski in the backcountry around Crystal and still use their parking lot. So I can’t use my pass but I’m still taking up a parking spot.
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More high(er) elevation snowparks.
More lifts.
More parking.
More restaurant capacity.
New ski areas.
Until these things happen, PNW ski areas will continue to be a shitshow. It's a simple issue of being overcapacity with too little infrastructure to support the crowds.
Yes, but, given the limited seats, it's on Alterra for overselling the resources as defined by the CCC in the SUP granted by the USFS, part of the executive branch of the US government.
In that light, folks, please consider writing to the USDA and describe the problem.
askusda@usda.gov
Link to Crystal MDP, specifies Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC), see Table ROD-1 https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf
Alpine Ski Area Capacity (CCC) 7,460 10,170 9,740
Lift/Trail Capacity (SAOT)a
7,120 10,040 9,600
Backcountry Capacity in SUP (SAOT)b
340 130 140
Design Peak Day Capacity (PAOT)c
8,206 11,187 10,714 <<<<<
Alterra has sold around 20000 Ikon passes in the Puget Sound, intentionally creating situations that cannot be satisfied. This is an abuse of the Public Trust.
>>>>>
To Whom It May Concern,
First, Alterra, owner of the Crystal Mountain Special Use Permit (SUP) https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf has sold over 20000 "unlimited" seasons lift passes in the Puget Sound Area.
Given that the SUP is predicated on a Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC) of 10,714 according to Table ROD-1 of the above document, this is clearly a breach of the CCC.
The analogy here is that a public resource of a stadium with 10000 seats has been contracted out to a concessionaire who sells 20000 seasons tickets.
This is fraud.
Second, these "unlimited" seasons passes were sold with a promise of unlimited access and in particular, no reservation to ski system:
UNRESTRICTED LIFT ACCESS
Ski and ride any day, anytime this season. The snow is yours to play. No blackouts or restrictions. Give yourself the ultimate freedom of unlimited lift access with the Crystal Anytime Pass.
See https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...b=anytime-pass
From their Facebook page: "... We do not have a reservation system to ski this season. ..."
Alterra has just announced they are instituting a reservation system to manage the problem they have created by over selling the resource.
This is a classic bait and switch, also fraud.
There are hundreds of upset USFS users: https://www.change.org/p/ikon-pass-n...ystal-mountain
Could your department please reign in Alterra? I continue to have some faith that our government represents the people and not just wealthy corporations who seek to abuse resources that belong to the people.
<<<<<
They've been pretty upfront in the letters and Instagram comments that they're not having problems with the mountain being full, just the parking lots. Parking is limited enough I'm not certain they can exceed the CCC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
Which actually exasperates the issue of overselling more, but focusing on the CCC might be the wrong tact.
Consider if they didn't sell more seasons passes than the CCC. That is the root cause of all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ørion
Good point on the backcountry. And your license plate is registered so you will be parking for free. And if you want to skin up Quicksiler and then dip over to FQ, as a paying season pass customer, no one will bat an eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Skier206
Personally, I like it that the parking lots are small and get filled up early (and I have little kids and ski mostly weekends). That is the way it was, and that is the way it should be. It's part of being a skier in the PNW (at least the ski areas close to both Seattle and Portland). It's a long ass drive up there and kids need to get used to getting up at crack of dawn or maybe the sport isn't for them. As others have mentioned on the fuck Vail thread, Vail and Alterra are trying to Colorado our PNW resorts. It doesn't work and will not work. It's too gnarly here, not for the meek.
DeBerry replied to my email and confirmed that its all about traffic and parking, and said that if I didn’t like the reservation system I could turn in my season’s pass, or ski midweek….
Here’s what I said to him:
Dear Frank,
I believe you want to avoid frustration for skiers by limiting traffic - the issue is how best to do that.
I’ve skied at Crystal for over 30 years, and for many years on peak days traffic and parking were limiting factors - but it was rare.
The problems with traffic and parking were exponentially increased when you (Alterra) sold season passes in excess of the carrying capacity of the mountain. The solution is not to introduce reservations mid-season, but to sell an appropriate number of passes.
You (Alterra) have caused the problem by overselling passes, and you have placed the burden of fixing it on skiers and long-time Crystal supporters by limiting their access to a product for which they have paid already.
You have a supply/demand imbalance. You have decided to solve it by restricting supply, and yet you have the ability to control demand by limiting pass numbers.
Please do the right thing next year.
I agree with where you're going Buster and it sucks to see what has been happening down at Crystal the last few years. That said Alterra can, and should be able to, sell more passes than the CCC because not everyone is going to come every day. I know I don't use my pass every day and I doubt most on here do. The question is by how many can they exceed the CCC. Is 2x too many? I would suspect it is, but is 20K in the Seattle area the right number to look at? Do we know if 20K the full Ikon with unlimited Crystal use or is it all Ikon passes?
The mega passes have distorted the old pass buying behavior. Of those 20k, how many actually plan to ski Crystal regularly vs. use the Ikon primarily for travel? I bought a limited Ikon but as a Snoqualmie skier, I won't use all 5 of my Crystal days this year, maybe (hopefully) 1-2 days. Should I be counted in that number? Probably not, but I'm in the number for Seattle area Ikons. Unfortunately there isn't a way to measure pass buyer intent in the way they have structured the passes now.
With local passes now being conflated with ski travel, the pass buying/use behavior has changed dramatically and in ways I'm not sure the mountains fully anticipated. I think it will still take a few years to shake out. Unfortunately, now that corporate skiing has gotten addicted to the upfront cash and been completely overrun by PE bros, we're not getting the old way back. I definitely support any efforts that get us closer to it.
If they limited passes to exactly the CCC (10K-ish) we'd still be in this mess because, at the current carpooling density, Crystal doesn't have enough parking to reach the CCC (my guestimate admittedly, have they released their vehicle capacity limits?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
If the FS goes to them and asks if they're going over the CCC they can legitimate say they never have that many people on the mountain. Its a parking issue, not a CCC issue.
The point is that during the Master Development Plan (MDP) for the Crystal SUP (which factually is owned by the Crystal Founders, not Alterra), the USFS constantly made a big deal out of the CCC.
Now the CCC is a squooshy number to begin with, but the basic idea is to try to have an estimate of the number of people that valley can "support".
The root issue is that Alterra has mismanaged their pass sales and user base to the extent that the CCC has been exceeded by definition.
Now, obviously not every pass holder is going to come every day.
At the same time, if the USFS really is concerned about what the CCC represents, then there should be some limiting factor for the number of passes sold locally. As such, your use of your Ikon should be counted in determining what that limiting factor is.
Alterra is tight lipped about how many passes it has sold locally. The 20k number is a lower estimate used by the Seattle Times.
The Summit limits seasons passes for good reason. Alterra should consider the same.
I haven't conveyed well enough what the CCC represents, but it is supposed to cover parking and overall use. As above if they sold only the CCC number of passes, it's very unlikely every passholder would show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ørion
The basic point is that they're over selling passes and the USFS is focused on the CCC in the SUP, so pass sales should be a function of the CCC, maybe some small multiple, but not completely unregulated.
It’s both. On the weekend when the lot is full, lines become a nightmare. It’s been an issue for a few years now. I can’t even imagine what it would look like if there was more parking added.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ørion
The elephant in the room is the only realistic solution and unfortunately it is a pretty bad one, is to raise the price to a point that demand is reduced. Say $2,000+ season passes and $250 day tickets. But if you do that, skiing becomes even less inclusive than it already is.
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No, they just have to limit the total number of passes sold for Crystal. Summit does it as do other hills. The issue with Crystal (and Stevens) is they have mixed local passes with cheap ski travel passes and sell way more now. They are willing to let the local hills suffer to get you to travel to their other destination mountains. The PNW was not exposed to this distortion until Vail and Alterra came and bought 2/3rds of the local hills.
From a business standpoint it seems to be working. I know a number of folks who moved from buying Summit passes to Epic or Ikon based on where they planned to travel to. They then just ski that hill for their local hill. I'm sure there are plenty like them.
exactly, demand has eclipsed supply, it did 2 decades ago. Forest Service needs to do prospectus and offer up multiple other locations for low impact ski hills to take the strain off the pitifully few that are in our state. They won't because they are colluding with Vail, Alterra, KSL, etc. to create monopolies. Forest Service is also scared, lazy, clueless, bureaucratic and sold out. This is their fucking job, and they are not doing it, this is our land and forest service is locking it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
Alterra is putting the solution to the overcrowding problem they created at Crystal onto the backs of consumers while reaping all the profits.
It's weird how in the country that champions supposed individualism we constantly let the powerful overrun the us.
The USDA Office of the Inspector General (OIG) Whistleblower Line is designed for persons wishing to report fraud, waste or abuse in USDA programs or in agencies/staff offices. We encourage you to file a complaint online by visiting https://www.usda.gov/oig/hotline . Alternatively, you may also reach out to their hotline by calling (800) 424-9121.
I don't think limiting passes, or jacking up pass and ticket prices will work. I don't really enjoy ski areas and much prefer to tour but have bought a pass in recent seasons because with young kids, my time is limited. I like Crystal because of the hike to backcountry like skiing. But in reality, I get almost as many runs exclusively hiking for turns as I do riding up lifts to hike the King. If passes/tickets were any more expensive, or passes limited and parking reserved, it may push me back into exclusive hike for turns. And with backcountry skiing popularity exploding, there are a lot of people like me. In the coming years, I see the amount of non-paying customers at Crystal increasing dramatically. Crystal can't do anything about this (yes, they charge for parking but I foresee a lawsuit coming if they get too carried away with that idea).
So again, I like the parking lots the size they are and people having to get up early to ski weekends (or just show up at 1 pm, it's empty then). It's the most equitable solution I see, even though it isn't really a solution at all. I know Crystal has grand plans to increase parking capacity but I will believe it when I see it. The geography does not support it and environmentalist will be ready with the lawsuits insuring the parking lot run offs are compliant with the various environmental laws (as they have previously; this is rumored as to why Kircher sold to Alterra). One area Crystal could easily increase parking capacity is to get rid of B lot RVers. They take up a massive amount of space compared to day trippers. But you'll really see some pissed off long term locals if they do that.
Is there any room for more parking along 410 at the turn off to the boulevard? No one wants to take a bus from Enumclaw but from the turn off wouldn’t be bad.
Really? That's pretty weak on both parties. It shows a complete lack of backbone to stand up to the Chads and Karens of the skiing world, and it's soft on the skiing parents. The world doesn't revolve around these entitled tech-wealthy skiers who go whining to the ski area management.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Skier206
As said in this thread, if you want to go skiing in the PNWet these days, you must get up early to get a spot. Period. This was a fact of skiing life growing up. I have vivid memories of loading up our Suburban or minivan - in the dark - to make the two-hour drive to Meadows or Timberline. And I've been reminded of this fact many times after moving back. Montana spoiled me and I've been forced to change my ways.
This should be the case for everyone. Them's the breaks.
What you illustrate here is also a huge problem; no one wins. The ski area wants to expand? Lawsuits by environmentalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
New ski areas introduced? Yet more enviro lawsuits.
More backcountry skier using Crystal lots? More angry patrons and more environmentalists up in arms about increased use in the backcountry.
I don't know if there's a way to make all parties happy?
How would the pass sales work? First come first served? I agree, greedy Altera sold passes above and beyond what the mountain infrastructure can handle? Do you double, or triple the pass price to try and tamp down demand? Thus Alterra still makes out for fewer sales but at a much higher price?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
The train wreck mass consolidation within the ski industry has wrought.
Epic Lift Lines (@epicliftlines) • Instagram photos and videos
This is the thing, I was at Crystal opening day and watched a bunch of (people I judgmentally view as) gapers walk up and buy IKON passes at the window. To me this shouldn't have been possible, but how would it change? IKON doesn't want to quit selling passes. Maybe there could be a date at which it no longer gets you full access to Crystal, but that seems like it would be a completely different arrangement than this year.