The baseball thread.

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Originally Posted by steve

um, to all you superstitious folk.. explain something to me? would i be jinxing the mets by pointing out that roger clemens is now 1-1?

because if that'll piss you guys off, then i won't point it out.

thanks..

-steve

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I think youre in the clear.

Lugo was good 3 years ago but I think not resigning Cabrera was the gaff. Renteria was the best SS out there and we signed him that year- what more could you ask for? He didnt pan out...oh well. Hindsight is 20/20.
And as for the production from Crisp/Lugo- who cares? Very few teams have very productive SS and CF from a hitting standpoint (like shmer said). We cant have an all star at every position- sometimes people have down years, dont rise to expectations. Just like with stocks...some win, some lose, and your portfolio on the whole should have a solid return (THE RED SOX ARE A FIRST PLACE TEAM). The bullpen has been spectacular. The starters have been very good, 1-5. They are at the top of the league in runs scored. Again.
Its easy to nitpick, but on the whole the team is in first place with the best record in baseball. Right now, all credit to Theo.
Plus- Crisp makes like 4 million a year...he plays very good CF...not exactly a travesty that we dont have Ken Griffey Jr circa 1995 out there.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

I beg to differ with regards to Lugo, his poor production was evident last season when he played with the dodgers.

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I just looked at his stats. Yeah, I'll say. He was pathetic during his stint with the Dodgers. He actually managed to have a higher OBP than slugging pct. That ain't easy, especially when your on-base pct is .278!! Unless you're a pitcher, those kind of batting stats have no place in the bigs.

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Originally Posted by shmerham

They never should've gotten rid of Orlando Cabrera. What was wrong with him at short?

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Easily the biggest mistake that the Sox have made since winning the Series. Hindsight is 20/20, obviously- but why bring in a guy (Cabrera) in part because of his great attitude and clubhouse presence, then replace him with a guy (Renteria) who was known to be shy and to put a lot of pressure on himself? I admit I was happy about the signing at the time, but you'd think Epstein and co. would have done a little more homework- like talking to Tony LaRussa, who immediately called it a bad signing and said that Renteria couldn't be successful in Boston. Remember, it wasn't just the offense- he was also terrible defensively.

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Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks

You really can't fault Theo for Coco and Lugo crapping the bed. That was totally unforseen....Dave Roberts in right will never happen.

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Well, it couldn't have been that unforeseen, there was a reason nobody else wanted those players. As for Roberts, I wouldn't be that surprised to get him back at the trade deadline as a half-season rental.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Lousy general manager? Krist, I thought he was sent from heaven a few years ago.

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Epstein and the Sox brain trust made two moves that won a World Series- signing Schilling (a negotiation in which, by all accounts, Epstein did a great job, although probably more as Larry Lucchino's messenger boy than as a negotiator) and signing Foulke. Not tough baseball decisions, but they identified needs and filled them. Since then, the track record has been decidedly mixed. The Damon and Martinez non-signings have worked out as expected, as both players have been far less productive in the second halves of their contracts (although it's still early), but the Cabrera/Renteria thing, the Drew and Lugo signings, and the Bard/Merideth thing were all totally butchered. Beckett/Ramirez is looking better and better, but the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned- Lowell could have his customary shitty second half, Beckett could get blisters again, and Ramirez does not suck.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

I beg to differ with regards to Lugo, his poor production was evident last season when he played with the dodgers.

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Yeah, all 49 ABs. Of course, the previous 1500ABs of solid offensive production in the American League East probably were meaningless, right? I'm not stoked on his production so far, but I think its kind of absurd to be knocking him after a poor half-season. All the hate on Theo is unwarranted, IMO. He's completely rebuilt the farm system (and for everyone who likes to kvetch about the Cabrera non-sign, you should go back to the 2005 draft and see how things might have been different had the Sox not had the compensation pick they got for him), and consistently built a team that won > 90 games in what used to be a tough division. In 4 years, they've missed the playoffs once, mostly because of injuries. Thats pretty solid performance, by any metric.

Frank from Gloucester, you're on with the Big Show!

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Originally Posted by stump832

Frank from Gloucester, you're on with the Big Show!

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Hahahahahaha

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Originally Posted by stump832

Yeah, all 49 ABs.

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He played 49 games for LA. He had 146 AB there. The guy really had one good offensvie year: 2005 with Tampa Bay. Other than that he's been average at best. I think he's better than what he's shown so far this year, but he ain't exactly Derek Jeter.

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Originally Posted by The AD

He played 49 games for LA. He had 146 AB there. The guy really had one good offensvie year: 2005 with Tampa Bay. Other than that he's been average at best. I think he's better than what he's shown so far this year, but he ain't exactly Derek Jeter.

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Right. I think we agree. Though he was pretty solid during his entire tenure in TB. My point was that at the time of the signing, it was pretty reasonable to look at LA as an outlier, given the sample size.

Well the sold out stadiums and baseball city fever of LA can be hard on any player.....

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

Well the sold out stadiums and baseball city fever of LA can be hard on any player.....

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You're right, it's more of a football town :)

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Originally Posted by stump832

Yeah, all 49 ABs. Of course, the previous 1500ABs of solid offensive production in the American League East probably were meaningless, right? I'm not stoked on his production so far, but I think its kind of absurd to be knocking him after a poor half-season. All the hate on Theo is unwarranted, IMO. He's completely rebuilt the farm system (and for everyone who likes to kvetch about the Cabrera non-sign, you should go back to the 2005 draft and see how things might have been different had the Sox not had the compensation pick they got for him), and consistently built a team that won > 90 games in what used to be a tough division. In 4 years, they've missed the playoffs once, mostly because of injuries. Thats pretty solid performance, by any metric.

Frank from Gloucester, you're on with the Big Show!

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The point is, that for the amount of money he has to throw around, they SHOULD be going to the playoffs every year, and doing well once there. Theo Has had one good season as GM, since then, he has been unimpressive to say the least. Sure he has rebuilt the farm system, and that's great, but the sox generally get their players off of the free agent market rather than bringing up minor leaguers, so it's effect is limited (though papelbon and dustin have sure been exciting to watch).

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

The point is, that for the amount of money he has to throw around, they SHOULD be going to the playoffs every year, and doing well once there. Theo Has had one good season as GM, since then, he has been unimpressive to say the least. Sure he has rebuilt the farm system, and that's great, but the sox generally get their players off of the free agent market rather than bringing up minor leaguers, so it's effect is limited (though papelbon and dustin have sure been exciting to watch).

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So what defines a "good season"? 162-0? World Series Championship? Yeah, you're right. 95 wins in 3 out of 4 seasons is a given and should be expected, because he has the ability to spend money.

He has the second highest payroll in Baseball, by a 27 million dollar margin over the mets. So they should be winning 95 games a season. I'm asking whether he is a good GM because he can throw money at problems, or because he makes excellent moves that make sense for the organization. I feel that he falls into the former category, and that the red sox would be improved with a better GM at the helm.

Yeah, bring back Dan Duquette.

dont go for the extreme, ice.
your old boss was a moron.
But theo gets press like he is the second coming and hes not even close to a Terry Ryan

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Originally Posted by iceman

Yeah, bring back Dan Duquette.

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No.

Now, if Billy Beane hadn't walked away from the sox offer, I would be happy.

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Originally Posted by Steven S. Dallas

Well, it couldn't have been that unforeseen, there was a reason nobody else wanted those players. As for Roberts, I wouldn't be that surprised to get him back at the trade deadline as a half-season rental.

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Wha? No one else wanted them? So you were at the Florida meetings and confirmed that no other teams had interest in Lugo? Personally, I don't like the Lugo signing either, he seems error prone, although has great range, and we all know about his offense so far. Also we traded for Coco, he wasn't a free agent. He was loved in Cleveland and appeared to be developing into a great player. So to say no one wanted them just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Steven S. Dallas

...The Damon and Martinez non-signings have worked out as expected, as both players have been far less productive in the second halves of their contracts (although it's still early), but the Cabrera/Renteria thing, the Drew and Lugo signings, and the Bard/Merideth thing were all totally butchered. Beckett/Ramirez is looking better and better, but the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned- Lowell could have his customary shitty second half, Beckett could get blisters again, and Ramirez does not suck.

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So how can you say the jury is still out on the Beckett/Ramirez trade and also say the Drew/Lugo signings were bad? Drew and Lugo haven't even played half a season with Boston and you're saying they are bad deals? At least wait until the season is over.

I do however agree with you on the Bard/Merideth trade. I think Theo's worst debacle as GM. Total knee jerk reaction to some badly caught games by Bard. Cla went on the set a record for consecutive scoreless innings by a rookie and Bard hit the cover off the ball. This season though he is finally coming back to earth. Now we are stuck with Mirabelli who shouldn't even be the backup catcher anymore. The only thing saving him is the ability to catch the knuckleball.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

He has the second highest payroll in Baseball, by a 27 million dollar margin over the mets. So they should be winning 95 games a season. I'm asking whether he is a good GM because he can throw money at problems, or because he makes excellent moves that make sense for the organization. I feel that he falls into the former category, and that the red sox would be improved with a better GM at the helm.

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That is a very interesting question. I don't think you can fault Theo for having a lot of money to play with. That is just the situation he is in with the current team. Dan Duquette could throw lots of money at problems and look where that got him... Its tough to compare Theo to GMs of other teams, such as Billy Beane, since each GMs situation is so different. If Theo was in Billy Beane's position would he do a good job? You can't really say because its never happened. Personally I think Theo is one of the top GMs out there. He thinks things through for the most part and rarely makes knee jerk signings, Mirabelli nonwithstanding.

Edit: for quote confusion.

Billy Beane is the most overrated GM in baseball. He'd be an awesome GM for the Sox, if the fanbase was interested in a mediocre team that won 85 games a year, though.

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Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks

Wha? No one else wanted them? So you were at the Florida meetings and confirmed that no other teams had interest in Lugo?...So how can you say the jury is still out on the Beckett/Ramirez trade and also say the Drew/Lugo signings were bad? Drew and Lugo haven't even played half a season with Boston and you're saying they are bad deals? At least wait until the season is over.

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I didn't say that thing on the bottom...

The Lugo and the Drew signings were bad because, as the story goes, nobody else was even close to the Sox' offers. This was widely reported at the time of the signings. Epstein was basically bidding against himself.

Crisp was acquired in a trade, but the Sox extended him for something like $16 million. That's what I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Steven S. Dallas

I didn't say that thing on the bottom...

The Lugo and the Drew signings were bad because, as the story goes, nobody else was even close to the Sox' offers. This was widely reported at the time of the signings. Epstein was basically bidding against himself.

Crisp was acquired in a trade, but the Sox extended him for something like $16 million. That's what I was referring to.

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Ah that makes sense. Contract wise I think they are bad signings as well. I do however like Drew as a player and think he is a solid addition. Lugo not as much. If Crisp can start hitting, which he showed a bit during the San Francisco series, then his 4 million per contract will be a bargain. I will never tire of seeing him play defense.

This offseason was pretty rediculous in terms of how much players were signing for. It almost makes Manny's contract seem reasonable!

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

No.

Now, if Billy Beane hadn't walked away from the sox offer, I would be happy.

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Billy Beane hasnt won shit. Theo and his WS ring > Billy Beane. Beane can develop/spot pitchers, but have you seen his teams over the years? Lucky if they can score 4 runs a game.

There you go chowd's. Coco Crisp 2 home runs and 4 for 4.

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Originally Posted by stump832

Billy Beane is the most overrated GM in baseball. He'd be an awesome GM for the Sox, if the fanbase was interested in a mediocre team that won 85 games a year, though.

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You're right, the A's are never any good. :rolleyes:

Show me another team (other than the Twins) that's as consistently good as the A's with the payroll he's working with.

By the way, good to see Schilling get rocked again tonight.

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Originally Posted by smmokan

You're right, the A's are never any good. :rolleyes:

Show me another team (other than the Twins) that's as consistently good as the A's with the payroll he's working with.

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Being overrated doesn't preclude the A's from being a solid team. Sweet rolleyes though. You're killing it.

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Originally Posted by stump832

Billy Beane is the most overrated GM in baseball. He'd be an awesome GM for the Sox, if the fanbase was interested in a mediocre team that won 85 games a year, though.

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Yeah right...Oakland has young arms coming out their ass and a great farm system...if he had Theo's budget he'd still have Tejada, Harden and Zito and Eric Byrnes. He's also have the best record in the majors.

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Originally Posted by smmokan

By the way, good to see Schilling get rocked again tonight.

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It was kind of sweet, wasn't it?