The Nutrition Science thread

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Originally Posted by The AD

How much creatine can you get through a normal diet? I'm a bit of a supplement skeptic. If you can't realistically get 5 grams per day through diet alone, how can taking more really be beneficial?
[edit: and this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.]

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https://blog.nasm.org/creatine-explained

Basically, your muscles use ATP for energy during intense-moderately intense exercise. That ATP gets rapidly depleted. Creatine allows your body to maintain higher levels of ATP during that intense exercise which thus increases performance. And we are talking muscle energy in this context, not the same as mental/caffeine type energy- think more how long your muscles can hold you up doing a wall sit.

There are numerous other studied and accepted beneficial uses (elderly muscle wasting, cognitive, etc) that i do not understand or care to because i only really care about the sports performance aspect, which, as said previously is pretty much undisputed in the medical community for its efficacy and safety. Supplementation is "necessary" for the same reason all supplements exist... they are a cheap, convenient way to ensure you are getting adequate levels of the targeted nutrient that is otherwise inconvenient/expensive to intake at the preferred levels. Why would you supplement fish oil/Omega3, or Vitamin D, or take a multivitamin, or use protein powder, or use electrolyte powders or caffeine gels, or...etc?

Take 5g of creatine daily for month and see if you notice a clear benefit to your intense work capacity... id wager quite a bit that you will. A very basic graphic explaining the mechanism of how creatine improves performance is below:

Attachment 467640

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Originally Posted by fool

Peaches, I don't know all of your post history but it seems like you've posted a few things about energy/health issues in the forum. Going low carb/keto is clearly an option but might be an aggressive option given the other challenges you've had. If you're active, young, and not pre-diabetic, why not try to find a more reasonable balance? Based on the cycling training thread I've moved towards high protein, med carb, and low fat and have been feeling good doing it. For active people, eating balanced, reasonably-portioned, high-quality, whole-grain carbs doesn't drag me down. And this is coming from someone who has done high fat / optimized fat metabolism before (I definitely had something like the keto flu for two weeks when I transitioned into it). (I'm also not sure if you can "teach" your body to be fat-adapted for only two days a week but I'll defer to Danno on that).

As this thread has discussed before, my main thought is don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough."

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Yeah, it was an impulsive move, which is a weird move with diets. Usually I do a decent amount of reading before I try a diet/supplement/etc. was feeling impulsive and also didn’t realize going low carb would have such a big effect. Side bar, makes me wonder what natives did when nothing was growing in the winter, did they all just get fat adapted? - interesting, on the high pro, med carb, low fat. Do you know why the low fat? What were you going for when you went to this diet? I’m hesitant to go low fat as I’ve had a number of concussions and my brain is very sensitive (I made a threads about this) and fat is good for the ol noggin


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Originally Posted by The AD

How much creatine can you get through a normal diet? I'm a bit of a supplement skeptic. If you can't realistically get 5 grams per day through diet alone, how can taking more really be beneficial?
[edit: and this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.]

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I think it’s great to be skeptical of supplements, especially cause we shouldn’t forget supplement companies, while they may be trying to improve people’s health, they’re also a business that needs to make money and that’s a main goal.

In a normal diet you get ~2 grams a day and your body also makes it. I’m not an expert on it, but I think it’s something almost everyone should supplement. It’s one of those amazing supplements that has a ton of research, number of benefits, and little to no side effects (I’d put omega 3s and vit D in that list and that’s about it)


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Originally Posted by fool

(I'm also not sure if you can "teach" your body to be fat-adapted for only two days a week but I'll defer to Danno on that).

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I have no idea (I'm no expert), not even anecdotally, because I was strict keto for ~6 months and then lazy keto for another 6 months before I transitioned to just very low carb (some days as low as keto, some just very low 50-75g, some days a bit more). Plus intermittent fasting throughout. So I "forced" my body to become become fat adapted, and I am absolutely fat adapted now. I can go on a long ski tour without having eaten anything all day without issue.

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Originally Posted by PeachesNCream

Yeah, it was an impulsive move, which is a weird move with diets. Usually I do a decent amount of reading before I try a diet/supplement/etc. was feeling impulsive and also didn’t realize going low carb would have such a big effect. Side bar, makes me wonder what natives did when nothing was growing in the winter, did they all just get fat adapted?

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Again, not an expert, but my understanding is that humans developed as fat adapted, the "natives" did not have to get that way. Sometimes humans got energy from animals, and sometimes from fruits or whatever. It wasn't until modern agriculture and diets that focused on carbs -- which are a more accessible "preferred" energy source -- that our bodies stopped being able to easily switch from burning fats to carbs and back, because we ALWAYS gave our bodies sufficient carbs, every. single. day.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I have no idea (I'm no expert), not even anecdotally, because I was strict keto for ~6 months and then lazy keto for another 6 months before I transitioned to just very low carb (some days as low as keto, some just very low 50-75g, some days a bit more). Plus intermittent fasting throughout. So I "forced" my body to become become fat adapted, and I am absolutely fat adapted now. I can go on a long ski tour without having eaten anything all day without issue.

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I 100% agree that becoming fat-adapted is a thing, Danno. I think I was fat-adapted at one point as well.

My point was that since he said he is planning/considering doing low carb/keto/OFM two days a week, I'm not sure one's body can become fat-adapted if it switches back to moderate level of carbs for the other five days of the week. Forcing fat adaption for only 28% of time doesn't seem possible to me...but I definitely don't know. I've never tried that hybrid approach.

^^^Yeah, I don’t think you become fat-adapted by reducing carbs just a couple days per week. Especially if those carbs are in sugar form.

Our Hunter gatherer ancestors ate stuff as they found it - chow down on a gazelle for a couple of days, find a beehive and eat a couple pounds of honey, dig up and eat pounded/roasted tubers and maybe snare a snake. They could go way longer than a couple days without carbs. They might go several days without food at all.

Which brings up the other way to get fat adapted - completely fast 2-3 days per week. Or a kinder/gentler way is to do all your eating in a 6-8 hour period.

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Originally Posted by PeachesNCream

Yeah, it was an impulsive move, which is a weird move with diets. Usually I do a decent amount of reading before I try a diet/supplement/etc. was feeling impulsive and also didn’t realize going low carb would have such a big effect. Side bar, makes me wonder what natives did when nothing was growing in the winter, did they all just get fat adapted? - interesting, on the high pro, med carb, low fat. Do you know why the low fat? What were you going for when you went to this diet? I’m hesitant to go low fat as I’ve had a number of concussions and my brain is very sensitive (I made a threads about this) and fat is good for the ol noggin
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If fat's good for you and your brain, definitely rock it. I switched towards the (not strict) high protein, med carb, low fat diet based on discussions on this board, primarily in the cycling training thread (credit to Bean, DTM, Pickels, EWG (iirc), and a few others). I wanted to 1) fuel my training/build muscle and 2) slim down a little bit. At a super high level, if you're an active-ish endurance person - I work out ~8hrs/week - carbs aren't bad. Low fat will help remove body fat and protein is essential for muscle building. And because many pro endurance athletes follow something similar, I was confident in it. (And while there are people on high-fat diets crushing it - Zac Bitter, etc. - in general the majority of endurance athletes aren't going low carb (see TdF riders, 2+ hour marathoners, etc.).

I believe you said you were running a fair bit at one point so I wanted to raise it.

I’m a broken record with this, but in the absence of carbs, fat is your source of energy. Eat plenty of it and be consistent. If you’re eliminating a major source of calories, you need to replace them. That’s especially the case if you’re active. Undereating as an athlete is a recipe for stress and fatigue that can be long lasting.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Undereating as an athlete is a recipe for stress and fatigue that can be long lasting.

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And low testosterone/thyroid and hypercortisolism. I’m weak I’m tired I must train harder, I’m too fat, I must eat less. Endless cycle.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

I’m a broken record with this, but in the absence of carbs, fat is your source of energy. Eat plenty of it and be consistent. If you’re eliminating a major source of calories, you need to replace them. That’s especially the case if you’re active. Undereating as an athlete is a recipe for stress and fatigue that can be long lasting.

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This cannot be overstated.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

And low testosterone/thyroid and hypercortisolism. I’m weak I’m tired I must train harder, I’m too fat, I must eat less. Endless cycle.

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aka, RED-S

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

This cannot be overstated. aka, RED-S

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Add in amenorrhea, osteoporosis for female athletes with RED-S.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

I’m a broken record with this, but in the absence of carbs, fat is your source of energy. Eat plenty of it and be consistent. If you’re eliminating a major source of calories, you need to replace them. That’s especially the case if you’re active. Undereating as an athlete is a recipe for stress and fatigue that can be long lasting.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

And low testosterone/thyroid and hypercortisolism. I’m weak I’m tired I must train harder, I’m too fat, I must eat less. Endless cycle.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

This cannot be overstated. aka, RED-S

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Just to reiterate again (and remind myself) how true this is. I posted on here a while back about being very low energy/depressed after long runs. While I do think there were other factors, I think not refueling enough was a noteable one. I usually take the approach of eat when I’m hungry but after long runs I wasnt hungry so I didn’t eat much. Got pretty significant low energy/sads afterwards. So here’s another reminder to myself and others how true this is, and eat lots even when you’re not hungry

Fun fact. You can actually starve to death if you only eat lean proteins. Shows you how important fat is for energy in the absence of carbs


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Originally Posted by PeachesNCream

Just to reiterate again (and remind myself) how true this is. I posted on here a while back about being very low energy/depressed after long runs. While I do think there were other factors, I think not refueling enough was a noteable one. I usually take the approach of eat when I’m hungry but after long runs I wasnt hungry so I didn’t eat much. Got pretty significant low energy/sads afterwards. So here’s another reminder to myself and others how true this is, and eat lots even when you’re not hungry

Fun fact. You can actually starve to death if you only eat lean proteins. Shows you how important fat is for energy in the absence of carbs


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Haha i remember reading a wilderness survival book written in the 40's that i found in my neighbors attic. In the section about how to trap/kill/cook rabbits and other rodents it made very clear that you will starve to death eating just rabbit because of how lean they are. I still only halfway believe that, but ill add you to the starve column now.

It really is amazing how much better your performance is during exercise when you keep your fuel (both hydration and nutrition) topped up. It is noticeable in everything from sipping gatorade at the gym instead of water, to forcing yourself to eat and drink every hour out in the backcountry instead of waiting for standard meal times to eat.

Is there a prescriptive baseline for timing carbs (and other things I suppose) for exertion/exercise?

Ie before/during/after, including amounts and timing etc.

I know it’s broad and everybody is different yada yada yada. Im talking baselines.

Cheers for caring.

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Originally Posted by BCJC

Is there a prescriptive baseline for timing carbs (and other things I suppose) for exertion/exercise?

Ie before/during/after, including amounts and timing etc.

I know it’s broad and everybody is different yada yada yada. Im talking baselines.

Cheers for caring.

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As many grams of carbs as you can handle without stomach distress is the prescription... assuming it is actually intense exertion. I like to toss in EAAs at around hour 2 if it will be a long day out.

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Originally Posted by BCJC

Is there a prescriptive baseline for timing carbs (and other things I suppose) for exertion/exercise?

Ie before/during/after, including amounts and timing etc.

I know it’s broad and everybody is different yada yada yada. Im talking baselines.

Cheers for caring.

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Depends on exertion level and duration. If it’s going to be long enough exertion/duration that running out of stored glycogen is a concern then carbohydrates during will be required. Amount required will depend on exertion level, but the typically number thrown out is that the body can process up to 90g per hour, though I just saw a report saying one team in this years Tour de France was targeting 120g.

(Layne Norton put stored glycogen at 400-500g)

There’s an Huberman/Galpin episode discussing nutrition which is good. Also a Huberman episode with Layne Norton on nutrition, but don’t recall if they got into cars during excercise.

As for before exercise, Galpin pointed out that ingesting something immediately prior to exercise will cause you body to favor using that particular energy source, so if you ingest carbs right before exercise your body will favor burning carbs when you start the exercise. Same for fat.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

stomach distress... actually intense exertion.

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Thanks.

Care to detail what you mean by these terms?

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Depends on exertion level and duration. If it’s going to be long enough exertion/duration that running out of stored glycogen is a concern then carbohydrates during will be required. Amount required will depend on exertion level, but the typically number thrown out is that the body can process up to 90g per hour, though I just saw a report saying one team in this years Tour de France was targeting 120g.

(Layne Norton put stored glycogen at 400-500g)

There’s an Huberman/Galpin episode discussing nutrition which is good. Also a Huberman episode with Layne Norton on nutrition, but don’t recall if they got into cars during excercise.

As for before exercise, Galpin pointed out that ingesting something immediately prior to exercise will cause you body to favor using that particular energy source, so if you ingest carbs right before exercise your body will favor burning carbs when you start the exercise. Same for fat.

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Also thanks.

I tend to get lost in the jargon of these kinds of podcasts.

Been reading this link:

https://www.usada.org/athletes/subst...0does%20matter.

It seems a little on the carb party side, but what the hell do I know (not much at all)?

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Originally Posted by BCJC

Also thanks.

I tend to get lost in the jargon of these kinds of podcasts.

Been reading this link:

https://www.usada.org/athletes/subst...0does%20matter.

It seems a little on the carb party side, but what the hell do I know (not much at all)?

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I’m with you on the jargon.

I think the reason you see them pushing carbs between events is that you’re not going to ever run out of stored fat, so that doesn’t need to be replenished, and you won’t need protein for recovery between heats. (Not an expert, so happy to be corrected.)

Regarding the mix of carbs/fat/protein outside of exercise, Galpin didn’t really seem to care about the fat/carb ratio (whatever works for you to maintain healthy weight and feel good, though don’t recall what he had to say about extremely low carb or low fat diets) and was primarily concerned with getting adequate protein - maybe 0.75g/lb body weight minimum each day, but pushing for 1g/lb if actively trying to gain muscle mass.

Carb loading was discussed, but he suggested it shouldn’t be thought of like a big meal of pasta the night before an event, but increasing your carb intake the 3-4 days prior.

Stomach distress is just ‘can your stomach handle this’? Is it making you feel sick, are you getting the runs, etc.

I assume by ‘actually intense exertion’ he means a level where your body wouldn’t be capable of fueling itself primarily from fat. Your body can’t convert fat to energy as quickly as it can carbs, so at high exertion levels your body will be burning through it’s carbohydrate stores (which are drastically smaller than fat stores) so that needs to be replaced during prolonged high intensity exercise.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

As for before exercise, Galpin pointed out that ingesting something immediately prior to exercise will cause you body to favor using that particular energy source, so if you ingest carbs right before exercise your body will favor burning carbs when you start the exercise. Same for fat.

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If you wait to start exercising before you start consuming carbs you'll maintain fat oxidation. If you eat carbs before you start exercising you'll trigger an insulin response which inhibits fat burning. The master regulator of fat oxidation is an eznyme called hormone-sensitive lipase which is inhibited by insulin. After you've started exercising your muscles are pulling in glucose so fast that insulin stays low and HSL stays turned on.

Fat is non-insulinogenic so consuming fat before exercise doesn't affect HSL. But, fat also digests too slowly to be of much use above fairly low intensities, and even the leanest people have shitloads of it available as body fat.

This is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens biochemically, but basically correct at the macro level. There's a training thread in the Sprockets forum that goes deep on exercise/endurance nutrition.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

If you wait to start exercising before you start consuming carbs you'll maintain fat oxidation. If you eat carbs before you start exercising you'll trigger an insulin response which inhibits fat burning. The master regulator of fat oxidation is an eznyme called hormone-sensitive lipase which is inhibited by insulin. After you've started exercising your muscles are pulling in glucose so fast that insulin stays low and HSL stays turned on.

Fat is non-insulinogenic so consuming fat before exercise doesn't affect HSL. But, fat also digests too slowly to be of much use above fairly low intensities, and even the leanest people have shitloads of it available as body fat.

This is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens biochemically, but basically correct at the macro level. There's a training thread in the Sprockets forum that goes deep on exercise/endurance nutrition.

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I’ll have to go back and check if I’m misremembering what Galpin said about ingesting fat before exercise. But in a podcast he could also have just misspoke. I know you know a hell of a lot more about this than me, so I assume you’re correct here.

I’ve found that adding in some adderall really helps for events longer than 24 hours.


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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

I’ve found that adding in some adderall really helps for events longer than 24 hours.

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So you're the guy consuming all the available Adderall so the kiddos can't get any;)

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

So you're the guy consuming all the available Adderall so the kiddos can't get any;)

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Ha, I just read there was a shortage. I haven’t had any in more than 10 years, but man what a boost when you need it!

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

I’ll have to go back and check if I’m misremembering what Galpin said about ingesting fat before exercise. But in a podcast he could also have just misspoke. I know you know a hell of a lot more about this than me, so I assume you’re correct here.

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I'm not saying he was wrong, quite the opposite, just adding some nuance and explaining the underlying mechanism.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

I’ve found that adding in some adderall really helps for events longer than 24 hours.

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LOL. Greenies and LSD fueled a lot of OG badassery in the '70s.