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I don't know if forgiveness will make it worse, but I don't think loan forgiveness addresses the fundamental underlying issue of tuition inflation and unequal opportunity.
I do blame loans as a major factor in that inflation. There's some analogy to the MBS debacle there.
Better federal subsidies to colleges might address that, but it would have to be very schmartly done.
I don’t see how the forgiveness of past debt makes it worse. I do see how income linked max payments/debt forgiveness after 10 years going forward could. More comprehensive changes should be made so that they don’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Highmen
I think the argument is that forgiveness sets the precedent -- i.e. others may take on more loans in the future under the hope they will have some forgiven. Not that the forgiveness of existing loans impact tuition inflation.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
Agree that the IDR changes are more significant when looking at potential future impacts on tuition.
... There have been precedents set for decades for big Corp/ bank bailouts... Student debt forgiveness is a fraction of a drop in the historical bucketQuote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
forgiveness (and free state tuition) were the precedent though. It sets a policy that’s a reversion to a prior mean - cheap college, forgivable debt. You can argue you don’t want that, but any motherfucker that tells you either of those is new is lieing to your face. Indiana included tuition free state college in their constitution back in 1816. Student loan debt was dischargeable until 1976Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
it’s worse though. Corps can declare bankruptcy and restructure in an orderly fashion their debts. And then get a bailout. Individuals declare bk and are still stuck with student loan debt (and judgements abs a few other things).Quote:
Originally Posted by up an down
So because we have done stupid things in the past we should continue to do stupid things to be fair? The proposed forgiveness program is somewhere north of 1/2 a trillion dollars, pretty big bucket wouldn't you say?Quote:
Originally Posted by up an down
It's arguable that a lot of that of that money would be defaulted on and retired as bad debt so is that really a valid assessment of the real impact? Either way, what they don't get back becomes a tax break for the creditors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by up an down
For clarity -- I give 0 fucks that it might "set a precedent" and agree that we've set the precedent for the top 1% and corps for decades. I'm just outlining the very speculative line of argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by dunfree
1/2 a trillion is a plenty big bucket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
So big that it is reasonable to compare it to other big-ticket items regarding debt forgiveness or tax breaks of the past few decades to consider its comparative merit. Comparative analysis is useful -- just like asking if it has merit in its own right.
If you were staunchly against the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, various hundred-billions corporate bailouts (banks, auto makers, airlines, oil & gas), and PPP -- then being staunchly against student loan forgiveness is at least a consistent position.
But compared to any of them, student debt forgiveness as proposed goes far more to the bottom 75% of earners.
The difference is, "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, various hundred-billions corporate bailouts (banks, auto makers, airlines, oil & gas), and PPP " were all bills approved through the legislative process, like em or hate em. This is an Executive Order and of questionable legality.
"I was going to pay off my student loans as soon as the money trickled down to me from those corporate tax cuts"- borrower with $80k in student debt...
^^This would also be the costliest Executive Order on record, by a considerable margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Congress is pretty fucked, and expecting action there until the MAGAists are gutted is foolish, but if we want to fix K-16 education, we can think so much bigger.
Thank you for pointing out the problem with these guys being like "Well big oil & corporations!" As if two wrongs make a right. How about none of the above approach, folks? Screw corporate bailouts and overreaching subsidies (looking at you, corn). But ALSO let's hash this one out through congress, K? We can absolutely debate the merits of student debt forgiveness, but it is problematic in HOW the administration went about it. Even if you're for it, the method was slimey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
My biggest beef with all of this is how it really does nothing to address the root problems. WHY is college so outrageously expensive to begin with? Look back throughout history. There is a distinct correlation between the rise of loans, federal and state grants and tuition costs. You could argue if it's chicken or egg situation, BUT funny how every time universities get more $$$ flowing in, the costs rise proportionately, and always WAY outpacing inflation.
The governments like "education costs are too high, here's $5K to help with your tuition. That should about cover things." I think some are well meaning here, BUT the problem is then the Universities are instantly like "Oh, did we say $5K? Our bad. Due to [cough cough] 'operating costs' going up, what we MEANT to say was tuition this semester is actually going to be $10K. The Education Industrial Complex is real. No different than the military or anything else where politicians are lining the pockets of their buddies.
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Dunno, GWOT/Iraq was pretty damn expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile
Approved by Congress:Quote:
Originally Posted by riser4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author..._Force_of_2001
they need to pretend congress actually authorized trillion dollar wars. Congress authorized a blank check, Presidents wrote the checks. It’s bullshit, but bunion is apparently butthurt about college degreesQuote:
Originally Posted by riser4
theres just some fucking toxic resentment on this issue, mostly from people who’d rather cling to cliche and imagery rather than reality . The vast majority of college degrees is not liberal arts bullshit, and people who got those or attempted to get those degress are not who hold the debt. The vast majority of students don’t attend $60k tuition snob schools. College used to be cheap because it was heavily subsidized - and you geezer cunts wanted lower taxes
That's a procedural argument of how the policy came to be--not a question of the merit or fairness of either policy which is where the question started. Not about the validity of promulgating rule by EO vs creating law via legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
If Congress did fucking anything to help this out in the past decade-plus this problem has been obvious -- then perhaps I'd be more sensitive the procedural objection. "Hashing it out through Congress" simply isn't working anymore. The bastardization of the filibuster making it require 60% or more to pass any legislation has self-neutered the branch to make any progress.
So what if drumpf did billions in giveaways at the stroke of a pen?
Would that be cool? I appreciate the EO argument. It’s legit.
But of course, you argue drumpf wouldn’t help the common man.
But hypothetically. If drumpf gave billions to gay nazi midgets, would that be ok? Granted they’re uncommon. But they are oppressed.
Have you seen how nice the ammenities are for on-campus students at most universities? there is an ammenity arms race to attract students (and their tuition $$), so schools build newer and nicer buildings, cafes, stadiums, etc in an effort to bring in more students and money. College is no longer a place for learning, its an all inclusive resort where every want from the student tourists is catered to. And the nicer the resort, the more tourists will pay to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by MontuckyFried
Obviously an overgeneralization, but honestly how do kids and parents pick their college? They pick the school in their academic range that they think will be the most FUN regardless of cost.
I mean, when youre 18, whats the difference between $60k of debt and $80k of debt? not a whole lot. Make college a sterile, academic focused nerdfest again without all these resort-like amentities and the cost will go waay down, while the academic benefit to the kids stays the same.
Ya'll acting like the EO doesn't have to be within the powers assigned to the Executive branch. It'll be challenged by the courts. We'll wait to see the outcome.
But I'm also pretty fucking sure that they didn't draft and announce this EO without a huge team of lawyers much more knowledgable about executive authority than a bunch of skiers on an internet forum.
Where is the half trillion number coming from?
I’ve read $240B over 10 yrs
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/content/dam/nh....1160.1160.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
Slug love. Those nudies are so cool.
Back on point. Turns out drumpf spent via EO.
I forgoted
With Congress in gridlock over a second stimulus bill to provide coronavirus relief, President Donald Trump issued four executive actions Aug. 8. Shortly after, critics took to social media questioning the actions’ legality.
One of those critics was former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, who tweeted his take on the actions a day after the news was announced. “Your reminder that a president cannot spend taxpayer dollars by executive order,” the tweet read. Reich later shared the same post on his Facebook with the caption, “That’s not how this works.”
People are sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by ::: :::