GUNS!!!!!!!!

There's no such thing as stopping power when it comes to shooting a human with most handguns. Everyone keeps saying get something "light". I say get her something with some heft to it to help her control recoil. In the real world 9mm is pretty much the minimum when it comes to self defense. Go too much below that and the trauma caused by the temporary wound cavity gets very minimal. Everyone should have a 22lr rifle. The 22 is a great practice round, but it has no place in the self defense world. Get her a 22 if you think you need to to get her comfortable shooting. Then slowly introduce a bigger caliber gun that's a viable option for self defense.

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Originally Posted by DeepHelmet

There's no such thing as stopping power when it comes to shooting a human with most handguns. Everyone keeps saying get something "light". I say get her something with some heft to it to help her control recoil. In the real world 9mm is pretty much the minimum when it comes to self defense. Go too much below that and the trauma caused by the temporary wound cavity gets very minimal. Everyone should have a 22lr rifle. The 22 is a great practice round, but it has no place in the self defense world. Get her a 22 if you think you need to to get her comfortable shooting. Then slowly introduce a bigger caliber gun that's a viable option for self defense.

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The wound cavity doesn't matter if you don't hit anything vital. Self defense is all about putting a round in a place that incapacitates the intruder. A 22 can do that just as well as a 45 if you put it in the right place. If you can shoot a 22 more accurately than you can a 45 than a 22 is your bet. A hole in someone doesn't matter if it isn't anywhere vital. In fact one of the great things about a 22 is that if you shoot someone in the head with it, it won't penetrate the other side. There is a good chance that it will ricochet inside the head thus causing more damage than a bigger caliber bullet.

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Originally Posted by ncognico

So after living in small, idyllic ski town for years we now live in a giant, not so idyllic, ski metropolis of the PNW, in a not so nice neighborhood to boot. After getting minorly stalked, followed, and generally creeped out a couple times the wife is ready to start packing some heat w/ a CCW permit of course.

I grew up around guns in the dirty south so I'm of the opinion that bigger is better, maybe a .38. She's interested in like a .22 revolver, something real small and light. Any thoughts, suggestions on this? Maybe a 22 magnum instead of LR?

I was thinking of picking up just like an inexpensive 22 rifle first to get her familiar w/ shooting, safety etc. Then maybe she could take a class as well. Then get her to pick out her handgun herself when she knows a little more. WWMD?


And sorry guys (and girls), no pics. But nice try in advance.

Thanks!!

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A couple thoughts, is she carrying just for a little peace of mind? Really, unless she is willing to practice a lot in order to get proficient, and is willing to shoot an attacker dead without hesitating, it won't matter what she carries because it will be more of a liability than anything. That said, get the .22 revolver because like I said, she will need to practice a lot, so she should have one regardless. I have a smith 617, taurus also makes some decent 22 wheelguns. If you're really going to use it for defense though, I'd stick with the smith. I'd say once she has practiced enough with the 22 that she can consistently empty every shot into a 4" circle at 5 yards in 5 seconds, and 6" at 15 yards in about 10 seconds, then she can think about what "real" gun she wants.

I'd recommend a 9mm auto, like one of the surplus sig p6's on the market now. Really though, as long as its accurate and reliable, whatever fits her hand and she can shoot well is the best bet.

Also, .22, being rimfire, is not as reliable as centerfire ammo, and is also not sealed against moisture.

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Originally Posted by ZGjethro

Leroy, any take on the new Ruger 556. It is around the same price as the sig and uses a gas piston also. I just read about it in the new American Rifleman (NRA magazine). I had my sights on the Sig classic with the folding stock but I have not read of any head to head comparisons. Sigs usually beat Rugers in my opinion.

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Sigs usually beat rugers in my mind too, although I don't know anything about the ruger AR. Sig has had some quality control issues within the past few years, but they'll fix anythign that goes wrong, and have pretty good customer service. I know ruger has had a bunch of full on recalls for some of their products, their LCP pocket pistol, which was a ripoff of keltec's design, had a bunch of problems.

Ruger has also had some controversial bussiness practices, like supporting the last assault weapons ban because it didn't effect their mini 14/30, so they hoped it would increase their sales. They also didn't use to beleive in letting civilians buy high cap mags, even after the AWB sunsetted. Looks like things have changed in regards to those things though.

Either get the sig, or at least give the ruger a little time on the market to see what other's say before you buy it. If you want a gas piston AR though, there's tons of other options, I'm not too knowledgeable about AR's, but I'm sure someone has some rec's.

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Originally Posted by waxman

leroy, try 60g VMAX or similar in the SIG...my PE90 (550 equivalent) loves them....

and Ruger compared to SIG = Ford compared to Porsche

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Yea, its a 1/7 twist, so it shouldn't like the lighter stuff, but it does. I've tried a few different 55gr, 68gr and 75gr rounds, and it does well with all of them, especially the heavier stuff, but for some reason it really loves the itty bitty 40gr varmint rounds.

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Originally Posted by QuikR12

Hey Ncog,

I was in fisherman's a few weeks ago and had the same question asked to me by a female shopper looking for the same type of weapon. What I and the store specialist recommended was something light, but absolutely something with enough power that it will fulfill it intended use, stopping an attacker. Sure 22s are light, but when it comes to stopping a pcp loaded rapist, it won't be enough. A .38 is another light option but its still questionable on the power side. I would recommend a sub-compact 9mm to anybody, but first save that money on the 22 lr and take her to an indoor range where you can shoot several handguns, and she'll likely be more comfortable than she thought with a slightly larger gun.

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Light + full power rounds = horrible recoil. People like to carry things that are light, but for a lady who doesn't want anything bigger than a .22, she should carry something heavy that she'll actually be able to shoot well. I can shoot my 22s, 9mms, and my big heavy 8 shot .357 smith pretty well, but I do not like to shoot light compact .357 magnums at all, nor do I do it well.

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Originally Posted by Smokey McPole

Well, a Ruger 10/22 is cheap (I think about $180 for the basic "carbine" model), but it can get progressively more expensive due to the fact that you can replace any part with thousands of custom parts. I've probably spent about $1000 on mine, but on the plus side I can kill a beer can out to 200 yds. I know guys who've blown WAY more.

Get a 10/22, a sub $150 scope, dissassemble and smooth out the trigger/hammer/sear/bolt catch with emery paper (they're somewhat rough from the factory) and resist the urge to go any further.

CZ makes a kick-ass bolt .22, but those start out at around $500.



I agree with getting her in the most high-power cartidge she can handle. People vastly overestimate the stopping power of handguns cartridges.

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Got my cz 452 .22 for $250, brand new on gunbroker. I had to wait around for a deal, but that price is not that far out of the ordinary. They go for $350 all the time. GREAT little rifle.

As far as a scope for a .22, I spent just under $100 on a mueller 4.5-14X, and it is an awesome optic for the money. I've had about 3k rounds through mine without any problems.

Add transfer fees for the gun, a 10 round mag, a bipod I already had sitting around, and scope rings, and I'm still under $500 for the setup.




Also, has anyone heard anything about the new kel tec .308 RFB bullpup? THing looks sick, front ejection, and an interesting operating system. Takes FAL mags too.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/rfb/pic1.jpg

funny how Bill Ruger passed away and all of a sudden (okay 3-5 years) later they are making "evil black guns" and "baby killer magazines" like it is going out of style....
i think some of their more FUDD like executives are gone too?

is this for home defense or is it a purse gun? 12 ga is always your best bet for home defense. In my mind a pearl-handled 25 auto is the quintessential purse gun, but Mace will be much more reliable and effective.
but everyone should own a 10/22 and a MKIII or MKIV. So fun and cheap!

I like the looks of a Sig, but it's hard to go wrong with a colt AR-15. Great for a lady too, not much recoil.

As far as handguns go, for a novice, I always recommend a revolver. Stupidly simple, reliable, swing out the cylinder to see if its loaded. S&W has had a lock on the revolver market for many years. My favorite is a 5 shot Model 60.

No word yet on the KelTec bullpup. I just bought an Aug A3, bu thaven't even shot it yet.

Ken

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Originally Posted by AKPogue

The wound cavity doesn't matter if you don't hit anything vital. Self defense is all about putting a round in a place that incapacitates the intruder. A 22 can do that just as well as a 45 if you put it in the right place. If you can shoot a 22 more accurately than you can a 45 than a 22 is your bet. A hole in someone doesn't matter if it isn't anywhere vital. In fact one of the great things about a 22 is that if you shoot someone in the head with it, it won't penetrate the other side. There is a good chance that it will ricochet inside the head thus causing more damage than a bigger caliber bullet.

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I think it's naive to think that someone without thousands of hours of training is going to be able to hit someone in the head or heart in a fight for your life situation. That is exactly why a 22 is a bad bet for self defense, a badly placed shot with a 22 is unlikely to do anything to stop an attacker while a badly placed shot with a 9mm or up with a self defense round will.

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Originally Posted by khakis

In my mind a pearl-handled 25 auto is the quintessential purse gun...

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Pearl???
Ivory son. Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

I think it's naive to think that someone without thousands of hours of training is going to be able to hit someone in the head or heart in a fight for your life situation. That is exactly why a 22 is a bad bet for self defense, a badly placed shot with a 22 is unlikely to do anything to stop an attacker while a badly placed shot with a 9mm or up with a self defense round will.

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How many attackers are going to be coming at someone when they are getting shot at?

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Originally Posted by AKPogue

How many attackers are going to be coming at someone when they are getting shot at?

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A lot? By your logic a starting pistol would work.

well, to add, most of the time the attacker will be within 5-15 yards before the draw, and to add a draw, aim, and release safety(quick for someone who is calm under pressure) that attacker can easily be within 5 feet before the opportunity to fire might be available for some. and, legally speaking, lots of states and laws are fairly strict in limits of how far away someone is before deadly force for self defense can be excused.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

A lot? By your logic a starting pistol would work.

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Are you serious? Where do you live that people keep coming at them when they are being shot at? Must be a bunch of badasses!!

To clarify the handgun would be for her to carry, not for home defense. (except for maybe answering the unexpected knock at the door type thing). We (I) already have a 12 gauge, my grandfathers ww2 rifle w/ bayonet, a not so friendly to intruders chow mix, and a whole bunch of ice axes if it came down to it.

The problem is I'm often away guiding, the dogs getting older and hard at hearing, and she's not at all comfortable around,and at this point has never fired, the shotgun. Hence the idea of learning to use guns w/ something a little less scary. I think I learned to shoot a 22 when I was like 7 or 8 years old so I think it be a good start for her. If at least to get her comfortable enough to not be afraid to use the shotgun in a home invasion scenario.

As far a the hangun is conerned, it would be for carrying, either purse or fanny pack when she's hiking or running by herself. Lot's of totally hypothetical situations have been presented. So I'll present the actual situation that occured recently.

She was running in this large wooded park near our house. She passed this guy that gave her a bad feeling. Next thing she know he's running behind her. When she turns, he turns (its a bunch of interconnected little trails) . Could be a coincidence except that the guys wearing jeans and baseball hat, and who the hell goes jogging like that. She started going pretty fast and heading towards the main trails and the guy kept gaining on her. Then he obviously ran out of breath and stopped and she kept going all the way home and didn't look back.

So if she had a gun in this situation, 22 or otherwise, it seems like it would be more of deterrent than something to use in a wild west style gun battle. If she couldn't out run the guy she could stop. Stand her ground. Pull out the gun. Then say "what the fuck are you doing" Chances are he would run pretty fast the other way. Or if it escalated she could fire a shot into the ground. In case I don't think it would matter if it was a .22, .38 special, or tommy gun. She would have the upper hand.

She's kind of into the idea of a .22 being a less-than-lethal option but I feel like if you do have to actually shoot someone, you want a little more stopping power. Plus a louder bang, if you do have to fire a warning shot into the ground or floor, is a more effective deterrent. I'm wondering if there's something in between the .22 and .38. Also whats up with the .22 magnum - is it signifigantly more powerful than a regular LR?

9mm or .380
I think a tazer or mace clipped to her hip would have been a much better option than a gun in that scenario. He's running after her, she stops and fumbles around trying to get a gun out of her fanny pack, meanwhile he grabs her and it's over. She's probably not going to open-carry a gun while running. That's scary though, glad she's alright. Hope she reported it

If she was running in Iowa City, this explains what really happened.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569490,00.html

In a self-defense situation, rarely is there a need to actually clear leather and pull a sidearm out and point it at the badguy. In the park running situation, if she feared for her safety, then stop, palm out, hand on firearm, yell "stop, I have a gun", repeating that several times, very loudly so others in the area hear.

If the guy is that stupid to continue, then you thin the herd of one more badguy. Or you can be a good victim, dial 911 and wait for them to arrive and investigate your murder.

Criminals rarely prey on citizens they believe to be armed. And it's very Hollywood to think that armed citizens routinely point their guns at criminals to save themselvers or others. However, it is fairly often where the threat of deadly force has prevented a criminal attack.

I also think its important for her to take a defensive firearm class, so she is taught not only safety and how to shoot under stress, but also when deadly force is necessary and how to keep out of jail if you ever do have to pull the trigger. These classes first teach to remove yourself from danger, run away if you can, dialing 911. Concealed carry is a big responsiblity not to be taken lightly.

Two great books on the subject are Cornered Cat by Kathy Jackson (specifically about women defending themselves with firearms) and In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.

As far as learning, she should be totally comfortable with that 12 gauge with lots of practice for home defense. Learning to shoot handguns for self defensive purposes should be with the gun you carry. For the lady, I recommend a snubbie lightweight .38 or 357 revolver. They always go bang when you pull the trigger. Now they have super-lightweight models with Crimson Trace grips which are perfect for personal defense.

Her idea of a .22 for being a "less than lethal" option clearly highlights her ignorace on the subject. Plus, there is no such thing as a 'warning shot" or a shooting to wound... that's only on TV and in the movies. Therefore classtime and rangetime are absolute musts before she begins carrying a firearm.

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Originally Posted by ncognico

She's kind of into the idea of a .22 being a less-than-lethal option

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You never point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy/kill. Especially in a self defense situation there is no second chance, you don't have time to do anything except rely on your muscle memory, and training.

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Originally Posted by ncognico

To clarify the handgun would be for her to carry, not for home defense. (except for maybe answering the unexpected knock at the door type thing). We (I) already have a 12 gauge, my grandfathers ww2 rifle w/ bayonet, a not so friendly to intruders chow mix, and a whole bunch of ice axes if it came down to it.

The problem is I'm often away guiding, the dogs getting older and hard at hearing, and she's not at all comfortable around,and at this point has never fired, the shotgun. Hence the idea of learning to use guns w/ something a little less scary. I think I learned to shoot a 22 when I was like 7 or 8 years old so I think it be a good start for her. If at least to get her comfortable enough to not be afraid to use the shotgun in a home invasion scenario.

As far a the hangun is conerned, it would be for carrying, either purse or fanny pack when she's hiking or running by herself. Lot's of totally hypothetical situations have been presented. So I'll present the actual situation that occured recently.

She was running in this large wooded park near our house. She passed this guy that gave her a bad feeling. Next thing she know he's running behind her. When she turns, he turns (its a bunch of interconnected little trails) . Could be a coincidence except that the guys wearing jeans and baseball hat, and who the hell goes jogging like that. She started going pretty fast and heading towards the main trails and the guy kept gaining on her. Then he obviously ran out of breath and stopped and she kept going all the way home and didn't look back.

So if she had a gun in this situation, 22 or otherwise, it seems like it would be more of deterrent than something to use in a wild west style gun battle. If she couldn't out run the guy she could stop. Stand her ground. Pull out the gun. Then say "what the fuck are you doing" Chances are he would run pretty fast the other way. Or if it escalated she could fire a shot into the ground. In case I don't think it would matter if it was a .22, .38 special, or tommy gun. She would have the upper hand.

She's kind of into the idea of a .22 being a less-than-lethal option but I feel like if you do have to actually shoot someone, you want a little more stopping power. Plus a louder bang, if you do have to fire a warning shot into the ground or floor, is a more effective deterrent. I'm wondering if there's something in between the .22 and .38. Also whats up with the .22 magnum - is it signifigantly more powerful than a regular LR?

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most .22s are not very reliable, most 25s and 32 autos aren't reliable. Get at least a 380, they have a very light recoil even in a small size. If not that, a 38 revolver, same thing.

You mentioned something less than lethal about the 22. My advice is if she is thinking along those lines, get a taser.

If you don't know the gun will run 100%, or if she will be willing to pull the trigger, a gun is just a liability and she should use a taser.

If she ever shoots anything with a .22 the courts wont look on it as anything less lethan than a 9mm.

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Originally Posted by ncognico

Or if it escalated she could fire a shot into the ground. In case I don't think it would matter if it was a .22, .38 special, or tommy gun. She would have the upper hand.

She's kind of into the idea of a .22 being a less-than-lethal option

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+1 to what Donkey Punch said. If she cannot bring herself to kill someone who attacks her, she should not carry a gun.

The upside of this, of course, is that most situations are immediately defused by the presence of a gun. Civilian US citizens use guns to prevent 1.5-2.5 million crimes per year, but fewer than 300 people are actually shot and killed in self defense.

Real situations happen very, very quickly -- as opposed to movies, where everyone gives dramatic speeches first. The stress and panic of a life-threatening situation do not allow things like "warning shots", and will not allow you the accuracy required to choose a non-vital organ and shoot that, especially with a small, short-barreled carry weapon. Frankly, under such a situation, you're doing well to hit your target at all.

I would strongly recommend that anyone who intends to carry regularly take a handgun self-defense course, regardless of local laws. The best ones will involve live fire while moving forward, retreating, etc., not just shooting at targets while standing behind a bench.

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Originally Posted by Spats

+1 to what Donkey Punch said. If she cannot bring herself to kill someone who attacks her, she should not carry a gun.

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Yeah this is pretty much what I told her as well when we had the conversation. For the most part you guys have echoed my thoughts on the topic thus far. I guess I needed some confirmation. She had the idea that a smaller gun would still have stopping power but that its wounds would be more survivable. Not true.

After some more reading it looks like I've opened up a huge can of worms which is the age-old debate about smaller calibers for self defense. Lots of hypothetical situations, what-ifs, and possibilities. This probably could've been a separate thread but there's plenty of similar ones on the internets already so why bother."

I think for now I will just pick up a 22LR rifle for her which is what most people learn with. Let her get comfortable with that. Then get her to try out some larger caliber handguns, get proficient with the shotgun, and then take some self defense and gun safety classes. The she can decide for herself.

The bottom line is I want her to decide what's best for her and choose the gun, (or not get one at all) that she likes, will practice with, and that will work best for her situation. I don't just want to go out, buy her a handgun that I think is best, and say "here you go, now take some classes then carry this thing around."

Thanks again for all the advice and input all. Kind of a morbid topic to discuss with the wife but she said she thinks/worries about this sort of thing all the time. It sucks that she does.

As guys I think we take some extra freedoms for granted in this country that women don't fully have. I've never really felt the need to carry a handgun anywhere. But I'm a 6+ foot tall reasonably fit male and people don't really seem to mess with me. She, on the hand is a 5'3'', petite, attractive, female and gets fucked with all the time. The incident describe above is a more extreme example but there are plenty of others. She says that it sounds like she tends get harassed more/attract more attention than similarly attractive friends of hers who are much taller. Predators tend to prey on those they perceive to be weak, I guess.

Any other women out there reading have thoughts on this? Do you carry guns/want to/ have thought about it?

Nice SIG Leroy.

I'm itching for a new gun now for some reason.

TNKN- where can find a nice condition M! carbine?

Ive decided I only want guns that appeciate now.

It will go in my soon to own ultra large safe. where i keep my investments the second time around.

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Originally Posted by Spats

+1 to what Donkey Punch said. If she cannot bring herself to kill someone who attacks her, she should not carry a gun.

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+2

You are either ok with gunning somebody down or you're not. If you're not you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

Had to have some boot work done to my ski boots today, so instead of skiing I went shooting. My wife for my a new Sig Mosquito for christmas, well obviously I am not too patient, so I got it early, and put about 175 rounds down range. Not super accurate, but fun to shoot, and way cheaper then anything else I own. Pics soon.

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

Nice SIG Leroy.


TNKN- where can find a nice condition M! carbine?

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M1 Carbines can still be purchased from the Civilian Marksmanship Program

www.odcmp.com

Click on CMP sales at the bottom of the page. I can't get the link to work right now though. Have to buy through a qualified supplier, usually a gun club that is a member. Still a very good deal.

Ken

You guys are funny.