50 years to the day

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Well, judging by all the calls I'm seeing for a "cease fire" and people begging Israel to chill out and 'be the better country', it seems like their preferred "solution" is for Israel to just roll over and continue taking it ad infinitum. Unreal. If any of OUR neighboring countries ran into a border town and did what Hamas did, we all know there'd be hell to pay and vengeance would be swift.

Unbelievable that ANYBODY thinks that any country shouldn't have the right to take care of business after an attack like that. They ONLY seem to expect that level of pacifism from Israel though. They're like "Comon, guys. Show some restraint. Y U MAD BRO?!"

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So in your rush to eliminate as many Muslims as possible, Israel levels Gaza, tons of dead civilians, Hamas clearly weakened. Then what?

Do you understand any of the downsides of escalation?

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Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker

i think the problem is that Gaza is not an independent country. Had it been, then it is a more clear act of war and Israel would have full right to level it. In the jail analogy, even in a prison riot you are still obligated to take care of the people under your charge. Obviously both metaphors are imperfect. I have wanted two states for a very long time, it is the only solution, but it also seems strange to reward Hamas in this moment.

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Remember that Hamas doesn't want a two state solution.

And while there wasn't a de jur two state solution, there was a de facto two state situation and Gaza was a de facto independent country starting in 2005 when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza... not just politically/militarily, but they removed all the Jews from Gaza BY FORCE.

As in, Israeli troops dragged 8500+ Israelis from their homes and communities, by force, and in tears, in 2015.

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This lady is grasping to the railing of her temple before being dragged away

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These Jews are being hosed off the roof of their temple by Israeli soldiers

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Even as these people were being dragged from their homes, the Palestinians showed up to brutalize them.... here are two victims from Palestinian attacks.

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Palestineans in Gaza waving Hamas flags at the site of a demolished Jewish temple, celebrating the expulsion of Jews by Israel.

8500 Jews were forced to leave Gaza, unilaterally, by Israel.
All the Israelis forces left Gaza unilaterally.
Hamas was elected the government of Gaza.
Gaza received more international aid per capita than anywhere else on Earth.
They inherited the infrastructure from the abandoned Israeli towns, including desert greenhouses.

That is a de facto independent state for 18 years. Closed borders are a de facto international relations issue.

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Originally Posted by JimmyCarter

So in your rush to eliminate as many Muslims as possible, Israel levels Gaza, tons of dead civilians, Hamas clearly weakened. Then what?

Do you understand any of the downsides of escalation?

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In my "rush to eliminate as many Muslims as possible"? Let's stop you right there, pal. I'm anti-Hamas. Not anti-Muslim. I AM anti-Islam though, but I digress. If Osama Bin Laden decided to hang out in my basement after 9/11 and my house got targeted by a missile and I couldn't get out, well Shiite. Sucks to be us but that wouldn't eliminate the validity of my house as a target. Faaaaak. Still beats watching my wife/kids get raped then shot then bodies mutilated in front of me before I get beheaded with a dull knife last like what Hamas gets their jollies from. Sick fucks.

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Originally Posted by summit

Remember that Hamas doesn't want a two state solution.

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EXACTLY! And neither do the Gazans. And neither do the Palestinians. And neither do the Palestinian supporters around the world that've been rallying over the last week and a half. They are loudly TELLING us that. In numerous interviews. On college campuses here in America to major cities in Europe, Australia, in Canada. Everywhere. It's nuts.

Let me say it slowly for all the clueless people here. THEY. ARE. NOT. INTERESTED. IN. A. TWO. STATE. SOLUTION! They are calling for the retaking of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. This ain't just Hamas saying it either.

2022 article about the strained relationship between Hamas and Islamic Jihad: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/26/11192...c-jihad-israel

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

In my "rush to eliminate as many Muslims as possible"? Let's stop you right there, pal. I'm anti-Hamas. Not anti-Muslim. I AM anti-Islam though, but I digress.

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You should just stop. You've called for carpet bombing Palestinians. And saying you're not anti-Muslim but are anti-Islam is profoundly dumb. For all your talk of spending time in the Middle East, you learned absolutely nothing. Pages upon pages of bad arguments don't add up to one good argument. They add up to one really bad one.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

EXACTLY! And neither do the Gazans. And neither do the Palestinians. And neither do the Palestinian supporters around the world that've been rallying over the last week and a half. They are loudly TELLING us that. In numerous interviews. On college campuses here in America to major cities in Europe, Australia, in Canada. Everywhere. It's nuts.

Let me say it slowly for all the clueless people here. THEY. ARE. NOT. INTERESTED. IN. A. TWO. STATE. SOLUTION! They are calling for the retaking of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. This ain't just Hamas saying it either.

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Why shouldn't the Palestinians get East Jerusalem and the Israelis get West Jerusalem, and neither one gets to call any of it their capital? As part of a two state solution.

Summit - I know all that but the world doesn’t care. Israel’s legitimacy is being eroded due to its own bad governance and bad faith arguments on the other side. Had the hospital attack been them, yikes. The thing is that it’s only a matter of time before and accident like that or a false flag. Iran won’t give up and Bibi’s mowing the grass strategy was cynical and useless. Give them enough rope and independence to make something there or fight another war later against a country but not a territory. Nothing but war now anyway. Maybe it will be like Lebanon and so poorly run that they’ll realize they have nobody but themselves to blame. 2 states, 3 states, it will be dangerous for a long time. It sucks to reward them so they need to do what they can right now to destroy infrastructure for killing, investigate any potential partners, and move ahead with something different. A “large” buffer zone can’t hurt. It’s fucked.

Summit - I know all that but the world doesn’t care. Israel’s legitimacy is being eroded due to its own bad governance and bad faith arguments on the other side. Had the hospital attack been them, yikes. The thing is that it’s only a matter of time before and accident like that or a false flag. Iran won’t give up and Bibi’s mowing the grass strategy was cynical and useless. Give them enough rope and independence to make something there or fight another war later against a country but not a territory. Nothing but war now anyway. Maybe it will be like Lebanon and so poorly run that they’ll realize they have nobody but themselves to blame. 2 states, 3 states, it will be dangerous for a long time. It sucks to reward them so they need to do what they can right now to destroy infrastructure for killing, investigate any potential partners, and move ahead with something different. A “large” buffer zone can’t hurt. It’s fucked.

^ Folks should recognize Hamas' strategy is to goad an overreaction. Hamas wants Palestinians to die. It's a lawfare strategy intended to delegitimize the state of Israel. That's what makes the maximum overdrive bomb the place into submission so misguided. It plays into Hamas' new strategy because they were losing:

"Hamas in Gaza appeared isolated, unable to even get more funds from the usual sources, such as Qatar. With Israeli normalization agreements growing in the region, Hamas seemed to present an outdated ideology living in the past."

For Israel the gravest danger is seeing the war spread. Hamas wants that to happen.

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Originally Posted by riser4

Why shouldn't the Palestinians get East Jerusalem and the Israelis get West Jerusalem, and neither one gets to call any of it their capital? As part of a two state solution.

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The city is already divided. Any discussion of Jerusalem has to include what to do about the Temple Mount & Al-Aqsa Mosque. Far-right Jewish-Israelis continuously agitate for complete Jewish control of the holy site. They are also Netanyahu's base. This plays into Hamas propaganda who called their terrorist massacre "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood."

Great article trying to grasp the moral/legal/strategy issues of a response to the Hamas attacks:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article...%20any%20event

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

And saying you're not anti-Muslim but are anti-Islam is profoundly dumb.

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Wrong again, MV. "Muslim" refers to the people. Islam is their religion. It's akin to people right HERE in TGR, of which there are many, who don't mind Christian people per se, but HATE the actual religion of "Christianity." Hell, there's an entire thread dedicated to talking trash about it. With much of the Left, they love bashing Christianity because they know there will be no repercussions. Easy target to pick on. They know they can run their mouths on late night comedy shows without fear of getting themselves Salman Rushdie'd.

So, yes. I can like Muslim people, and I actually really appreciate a lot about the ME cultures having spent ample time there, WITHOUT liking their religion. Again, same as many here feel about Christians vs Christianity™.

My god you’re dumb

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Originally Posted by riser4

Why shouldn't the Palestinians get East Jerusalem and the Israelis get West Jerusalem, and neither one gets to call any of it their capital? As part of a two state solution.

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You been hearing the chant of "From the River to the Sea" that's been being yelled at EVERY Pro-Palestine rally lately? Yeah, that's why.

Once again, they are NOT amenable to a 2-state solution. When they say these things, you really should start to believe them. They're straight up TELLING you.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Just strikingly, profoundly and totally ignorant. He's too dumb, demontastic and befuddled-a-aobtuse to be real, and yet he is.

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And racist as fuck!


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker

i think the problem is that Gaza is not an independent country. Had it been, then it is a more clear act of war and Israel would have full right to level it. In the jail analogy, even in a prison riot you are still obligated to take care of the people under your charge. Obviously both metaphors are imperfect. I have wanted two states for a very long time, it is the only solution, but it also seems strange to reward Hamas in this moment.

Just my ramblings. Innocent life is precious.

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Gaza is like a giant prison. Where's Snake Plisskin when you need him.

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Originally Posted by mcski

My god you’re dumb

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And yet in his mind he’s always the smartest guy in the room.

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Originally Posted by Flounder

And yet in his mind he’s always the smartest guy in the room.

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And the posting vibes of a shrill aunt on Facebook.

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Originally Posted by JimmyCarter

So in your rush to eliminate as many Muslims as possible, Israel levels Gaza, tons of dead civilians, Hamas clearly weakened. Then what?

Do you understand any of the downsides of escalation?

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You forget, ,first and foremost, the priority is to free their hostages and our hostages.

I think the sick belief around these protestors, if they even consider the hostages, is that hey either think those dirty Jews deserve it, or they should be bargaining chips.

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

You forget, ,first and foremost, the priority is to free their hostages and our hostages.

I think the sick belief around these protestors, if they even consider the hostages, is that hey either think those dirty Jews deserve it, or they should be bargaining chips.

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So what’s your plan to free the hostages exactly?

You know how China has been building islands in the S Pacific the last few years? Yeah, maybe all the Arab countries can get together and build an island in the Med and all 2 million of em can go there. They can fire rockets at the ocean all day and dance in the streets and .. Whatever. They don't want a 2 state solution, they only want the Jews gone. That's not happening so they better change their plan.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Great article trying to grasp the moral/legal/strategy issues of a response to the Hamas attacks:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article...%20any%20event

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At the risk of oversimplifying, Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel does not have a right to fight the war unjustly. This is going to be very, very hard. A lot of it will come down to good versus bad officers, NCOs and troops. Some will accomplish their tasks while doing their utmost to protect civilian and others will fight ruthlessly without regard for civilians.

Nobody can say whether Israel will fight justly or unjustly. We know, for example, Hamas aims their rockets at hospitals in Israel which means Israel has an obligation to protect its own civilians. It is necessary for Israel to try and stop Hamas attacks on civilians. Calling for peace now only invites more attacks.

How Israel prosecutes the war matters, however. It can't be a war of Avenging Angels inflicting retributive punishment. It’s not just a moral argument. As much as possible, Israel has to fight the war in a way that allows for a peaceful solution afterwards. If the current Israeli government is incompetent, and by so many accounts it is, the situation will only become worse. The best hope is for competent commanders on the ground.

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Originally Posted by gravitylover

They don't want a 2 state solution, they only want the Jews gone. That's not happening so they better change their plan.

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True and it's important to recognize different Palestinian groups have different goals. Hamas wants a caliphate and all nonbelievers removed from the Middle East. Fatah wants a homeland for Palestinians. Fatah prefers all of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank for Palestinians but they are also realists.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

So what’s your plan to free the hostages exactly?

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Shoot the hostage.

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Originally Posted by gravitylover

You know how China has been building islands in the S Pacific the last few years? Yeah, maybe all the Arab countries can get together and build an island in the Med and all 2 million of em can go there. They can fire rockets at the ocean all day and dance in the streets and .. Whatever. They don't want a 2 state solution, they only want the Jews gone. That's not happening so they better change their plan.

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Dubai has a mini-archipelago of man-made islands sitting empty

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Shoot the hostage.

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Cono on his way to rescue the hostages:

https://youtu.be/qxlaxrfQ8_U?si=ULIMbZInuOrpWF8s