Praxis Lhasa Pows?

Keith will have to confirm, but I think he is going to set it so the nylon background is only available in black, and potentially you can change the blue line art to another color (bright, primary color like red, yellow, green, pink? Other colors don’t always turn out that well/are hard to match the desired color to the printed color).

Again Keith needs to confirm, but the veneer will only be available with the naked (veneer) as the background. The line art will definitely be available in black (color he suggested to me for the Tineo) - I would think options will black, dark blue, green, and red. Maybe purple. Darker the veneer, darker the line art color should be to show up. Other colors won’t come out very well on most of the veneers.

Also, if you check through the Facebook photos, most of the veneers will look more stained and darker brown than the veneer stock shown on the page after being varnished, so check those photos for a better idea of what they will turn out like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

Keith will have to confirm, but I think he is going to set it so the nylon background is only available in black, and potentially you can change the blue line art to another color (bright, primary color like red, yellow, green, pink? Other colors don’t always turn out that well/are hard to match the desired color to the printed color).

Again Keith needs to confirm, but the veneer will only be available with the naked (veneer) as the background. The line art will definitely be available in black (color he suggested to me for the Tineo) - I would think options will black, dark blue, green, and red. Maybe purple. Darker the veneer, darker the line art color should be to show up. Other colors won’t come out very well on most of the veneers.

Also, if you check through the Facebook photos, most of the veneers will look more stained and darker brown than the veneer stock shown on the page after being varnished, so check those photos for a better idea of what they will turn out like.

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Keith emailed me that solid black will not stick to the veneer finish for long, hence why I am going with the nylon finish.

Ok, this morning I'm seeing:

Lacewood
Cherry
Curly Tineo
Bird's Eye Maple
Birch
Oak

Is this expected to remain as the selection for this batch?

Can we get some more information on the exact tree species? Which flavors of oak, birch, and cherry are these veneers?

How thick is each veneer? How does that compare to the nylon topsheets?

It's been said that the veneers will cut a bit of weight while adding a little dampness. The material properties vary between these veneer choices. Would a rider be able to notice a 20% difference in elastic modulus between the options? Will the Janka hardness rating help to predict damage resistance?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Ok, this morning I'm seeing:

Lacewood
Cherry
Curly Tineo
Bird's Eye Maple
Birch
Oak

Is this expected to remain as the selection for this batch?

Can we get some more information on the exact tree species? Which flavors of oak, birch, and cherry are these veneers?

How thick is each veneer? How does that compare to the nylon topsheets?

It's been said that the veneers will cut a bit of weight while adding a little dampness. The material properties vary between these veneer choices. Would a rider be able to notice a 20% difference in elastic modulus between the options? Will the Janka hardness rating help to predict damage resistance?

Thanks

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Can we also get the tree's given name, please? Are we sure they're wild, or at least free-range, not farmed trees? If farmed, what's the density -- does each tree get enough sunlight? Certified organic and gluten free?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Can we also get the tree's given name, please? Are we sure they're wild, or at least free-range, not farmed trees? If farmed, what's the density -- does each tree get enough sunlight? Certified organic and gluten free?

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Do they play music for them at the orchard? At least talk to them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Can we also get the tree's given name, please? Are we sure they're wild, or at least free-range, not farmed trees? If farmed, what's the density -- does each tree get enough sunlight? Certified organic and gluten free?

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lol :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Do they play music for them at the orchard? At least talk to them?

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Feed them bacon?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

Keith emailed me that solid black will not stick to the veneer finish for long, hence why I am going with the nylon finish.

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Are you sure you understood what he meant? I think he was referring to printing a solid black background on veneer would not work well - not black for the line art. If that was the case most of the graphics he offers for his whole lineup would not stick to the veneer for long - which hasn’t been the case

Keith confirmed, color options are as follows:

Nylon: Black background, but you can choose any color for the line art. His disclaimer is that the colors don't always come out printed in the exact shade specified - i.e. red could come out a little orange or even pink tinted. The further from a primary the color it is, I'd think the greater chances the shade could be off a little - but I think it'd be hard to make it look bad against the black regardless.

Veneer: Naked veneer background, but you can choose any color for the line art. Same disclaimer as above - getting the shade exactly right is tough, so if you ask for a color, don't complain if it doesn't come out exactly the way you wanted. Veneers will be darker than the photos on the page once finished. Darker veneers (Tineo, Oak) will work best with black. Look on facebook and the stock ski pages on the Praxis site to get a good idea on what they veneers will look like finished. MVP has oak pictures, Backcountry has Lacewood, birch, GPO has cherry pictures. Birds eye maple or cherry are probably the best choices for lighter colors.

I'd think it'd be helpful for y'all to find a photo of an existing nylon (for Nylon orders) or veneer (for veneer orders, with a similar veneer type) ski that shows a color that you'd want to serve as a reference for Keith to get the color accurate. I think Keith is going in order of deposits for letting people pick veneers since there are only a certain number of each available. I'd have a backup if your first choice is already taken.


All that said, my final build is:

Enduro, Medium Flex, Tineo Veneer, Black Line Art

I wasn't joking about the veneer data.

I know it mostly affects appearance... but I'm paying almost a thousand dollars for these fucking things and I am politely requesting information that is likely easy to provide and would help me with the selection. Sounds like I'll be at the back of the line for picking one, so maybe it's all moot. Whatever.

Here is what I gathered this morning with some guesses on tree types:

Birdseye maple is a figure (variant) of the sugar maple (hard maple), caused by numerous aborted shoots as the buds die off with unfavorable growing conditions.

Tineo is a Chilean hardwood known for its dramatic dark veins.

Lacewood is from tropical South America and is relatively soft, though beautiful.

Cherry could be either sweet cherry or black cherry, both with similar properties except decay resistance, where black cherry is very good.

Oak is likely from the White oak group, which has excellent rot resistance and has been used for building boats forever. Red oak is less dense and more porous, and doesn't hold up well in the weather.

Lastly, birch is perhaps the common Yellow birch, though Keith's vaunted Karelian birch is a grain figure of Silver birch grown in Finland.

Attachment 251356

The property that could matter the most, and which varies a lot in the offerings, is the hardness. The harder woods could hold up better against dings and abrasion, but are heavier.

Attachment 251361

Attachment 251362

Lastly, the Young's Modulus (stiffness). It's possible that this could be felt in the ski flex, but the veneer is thin compared to the core. Birch is stiffest, followed by oak and maple, then cherry, tineo, and lacewood. Birch is 25% stiffer than tineo.

Attachment 251365

So... what species of birch, oak, cherry, and maple are these veneers?

Like you, I've been researching. I was originally leaning towards birdseye because it is the hardest, but after further thought and talking to Keith I decided to go Tineo because I like its looks, and the veneers will all be roughly equivalent durability wise anyways.

Oak is red oak.
Birdseye is hard maple
Cherry is Black Cherry
Birch is river birch

I'm no wood expert, but this is what I've gathered:

Wood durability refers to rot resistance, "non-durable" means it takes 5-10 years for an untreated piece of lumber to decay when in contact with the ground. It doesn't really apply to dried, treated, varnished, and sealed pieces of wood that will see a small amount of water occasionally before being dried quickly and stored in a controlled indoor environment. Just dry your skis off at the end of the day and they'll be fine for long past the ski's usable life. Porous wood means more varnish gets into the lumber, might actually make it last longer for veneers.

Janka hardness will have some impact on the top sheet's resistance to dings. However, keep in mind that Janka hardness is the force required to lodge a 11mm diameter steel ball half way into a piece of untreated wood. The treatment and sealing process makes the woods more durable. Even the softer woods (i.e 950 Janka hardness) - that means it requires 950 lbs of force to wedge that steel ball into the wood, which is a lot.

Maybe if you start putting all your wait on your spiky ski poles into the topsheet you'll get a ding, maybe. Regardless they'll all be quite durable and comparable to each other, and Keith has said as much.

Stiffness and density will likely cause almost no difference in weight or feel of different veneers, considering the veneers are so thin and insubstantial compared to the core. As a whole veneers feel different than nylon, but very doubtful anyone could tell a difference between different woods.

https://www.wood-database.com/ is a good resource

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

Like you, I've been researching.

Oak is red oak.
Birdseye is sugar maple
Cherry is Black Cherry
Birch is river birch

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Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Norseman

I wasn't joking about the veneer data.

I know it mostly affects appearance... but I'm paying almost a thousand dollars for these fucking things and I am politely requesting information that is likely easy to provide and would help me with the selection.

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I know. Just some light teasing. :tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

All that said, my final build is:

Enduro, Medium Flex, Tineo Veneer, Black Line Art

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Nice! I’m sorta copying you, hope you don’t mind.:)
Heavy hitter, 4/5 flex, Tineo Veneer, Black Line Art.
Keith echoed to me what you typed out above.

What is the thickness of these veneers? Are they all about the same thickness?

Thiccness???

1/45"

I edited my post above with more details about the veneers. Means there is about 8.33 cubic inches of wood per ski, or 0.004820602 cubic feet, which means there's about .17-.2 lbs of wood veneer per ski (not including varnish/sealer). Hence why the varying densities, stiffness, etc make very little difference among the wood types.

Damn. I thought I was a gear dweeb.

This series of post is amazeballs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

1/45"

I edited my post above with more details about the veneers

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Sheeeit, that's 22 thou. Five sheets of printer paper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Damn. I thought I was a gear dweeb.

This series of post is amazeballs.

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^^ Ha! This is what happens when you get a couple mechanical engineers going about a pair of dope skis when there's no snow on the ground (;

LOL

Sorry for the dweebery. I try to keep it in check, but sometimes ya gotta get real!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Norseman

LOL

Sorry for the dweebery. I try to keep it in check, but sometimes ya gotta get real!

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No apologies. This is awesome.

I'm going with:

Enduro carbon, Stiff Flex 4/5, Tineo Veneer, Black Line Art

High contrast wood grain is hard to resist. I'm going with enduro, stiff (4/5), veneer, and black graphics on tineo (or oak if unavailable).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Heavy hitter, 4/5 flex,

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Those are gonna be fast!


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Yes, the contrast is pleasant.
Going 3/4 Enduro Carbon Tineo Veneer

Just noticed that all of the veneers (with the exception of cherry) will be book matched … sweet!
The cherry veneer will be wide enough to cover both skis (which will look cool too).