espresso making mags?

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Going down the rabbit hole while semi (not at all) listening to a Zoom call. It looks like it's about $150 to add a PID to a machine that doesn't have one? How necessary are they in reality to a noob? I've watched videos of people talking about 'temp surfing' to get the right temperature for a good shot, that sounds hard.

And why would I buy a Gaggia for $450 and add a PID when I could get this: https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-p...MaAsc_EALw_wcB

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a PID is the minimum barrier to entry for eliminating machine-variance in shots. with a PID single boiler dual use machine + a good grinder, you should (in theory) be able to do consistent, cafe-quality espresso. without a PID you are relying on the machine's thermostat, which will vary from way too cold to way too hot.

if you're looking at the lelit anna, i'd still consider climberevan's machine. or, for the same price, look at this guy:

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/cr...presso-machine

it will steam milk better and easier than either machine

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Originally Posted by tgapp

a PID is the minimum barrier to entry for eliminating machine-variance in shots. with a PID single boiler dual use machine + a good grinder, you should (in theory) be able to do consistent, cafe-quality espresso. without a PID you are relying on the machine's thermostat, which will vary from way too cold to way too hot.

if you're looking at the lelit anna, i'd still consider climberevan's machine. or, for the same price, look at this guy:

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/cr...presso-machine

it will steam milk better and easier than either machine

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How easy would it be to add a PID to climberevan's?

What's the reliability of that CC1 v2? According to the internet, the Gaggia and the Lelit score well here, but not much info on the CC1. Also, why does that one steam milk better? I know my wife would be making milk drinks.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Going down the rabbit hole while semi (not at all) listening to a Zoom call. It looks like it's about $150 to add a PID to a machine that doesn't have one? How necessary are they in reality to a noob? I've watched videos of people talking about 'temp surfing' to get the right temperature for a good shot, that sounds hard.

And why would I buy a Gaggia for $450 and add a PID when I could get this: https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-p...MaAsc_EALw_wcB

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Lelit is a good machine.
But keep in mind that with a single boiler it takes a while to make a cappuccino.
Better off to microwave your milk and froth it with a battery operated propeller type device.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

How easy would it be to add a PID to climberevan's?

What's the reliability of that CC1 v2? According to the internet, the Gaggia and the Lelit score well here, but not much info on the CC1. Also, why does that one steam milk better? I know my wife would be making milk drinks.

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okay so let's talk about espresso machines. here's the deal. espresso brews at around 200 deg F, but you only get enough steam pressure at around 250 deg F. so, you can't have a single boiler that does both at the same time. there are basically 3 main solutions to this problem, with the crossland being a unique in the market fourth solution.

SBDU (single boiler double use) - this is like the lelit anna or the gaggia. basically, you get the boiler up to steam temp, steam your milk, then flush your machine to get it cold enough to pull a shot. not ideal, takes a few minutes, and without a PID there is a real skill to it. PID makes it easier but it's still time consuming.
HX (heat exchanger) - this one has a boiler that runs at steam temps and a HX circuit that feeds the group head (where water for coffee comes out) at the right brew temp. this allows you to steam at the same time as you pull a shot, but these machines are fiddly, generally speaking.
DB (double boiler) - these have a dedicated steam boiler at 260 deg or whatever and a dedicated brew boiler that runs at 200. expensive, complicated, but objectively the gold standard.
Thermoblock - this is what the Crossland CC1 has - it's basically like a heating element that gets real hot and a stream of water hits it, flashes to steam, and then goes out the wand. the advantage is that you can steam at the same time as you pull a shot, the disadvantage is that they're a little wimpy

some good reading to be had here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comm...ssland_cc1_or/

my advice: if milk drinks are a regular thing in your house, the minimum you want is a heat exchanger machine. sorry man, buy once, cry once. SBDU's suck for milk drinks. the crossland is serviceable but better for cappucinos and occasional milk drinks, not for daily lattes.

this deal just came up and it's pretty incredible, i would hop on it in a second if i was in the market in that price range:

https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...al-t69151.html

Do it all the time on the Rancilio

hit the pump switch, shut it off when the heating element light goes on, 15 sec after the light goes off the water temp is the highest it can be ... hit the pump again for your shot

Ok, I'm starting to realize why I tapped out last time, maybe this isn't good for my OCD. Or maybe it's the best outlet ever?
I think I need to go walk outside in the sun for a bit.

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Originally Posted by jm2e

Haha. Doesn’t help that the manual isn’t exactly right either.


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Haha indeed. Today the clean light was flashing, so I spent about 15 minutes trying to get the decalcification cycle working. Finally realized that flashing means clean, steady light means decalc. The manual was right though, reading comprehension was the problem.

you read the manual ? turn in yer man card, next yer gona tell us you check the roadmap



I wrote that ^^ and realized nobody checks the map cuz we now have GPS

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

How easy would it be to add a PID to climberevan's?

What's the reliability of that CC1 v2? According to the internet, the Gaggia and the Lelit score well here, but not much info on the CC1. Also, why does that one steam milk better? I know my wife would be making milk drinks.

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I had the Lelit set up with a PID for a while, but I stole the parts for another project (greenhouse heater).

Basically you interrupt the built-in thermostat with a solid state relay which is controlled by a PID module and connect its thermocouple to an appropriate spot on the boiler. I used matching spade terminals, so it's totally non-destructive. Parts run about $50 if you look around and it's a really easy project.

I can confirm that the single boiler machines all suck for steaming milk. This is especially a problem if your standards are high for cappuccino, as the milk must be steamed as the shot is pulling for the texture once you mix the two to come out right. This is also true if you want to do latte art. The simple fact is that if milk drinks matter to you, the entry fee is much higher. No one would recommend a $900 bike for riding A-Line at Whistler--there is a certain minimum required to play the game.

(I've gotten out of the business, but in a past life I trained baristas for a 6 cafe chain and then roasted professionally, first on a 90kg Probat (3000# daily) and later on a 20kg Probat while supervising the guy on the 90. It was a fun gig, but making a real living in the coffee industry is hard, and I like to travel for long stretches.)

If you want to do milk drinks for cheap, another option is to run 2 small machines. Set one up for making shots and leave the other one for steaming. The little guys can only really steam about 12oz though of milk before they, uh, run out of steam.

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How many people do latte art on a daily basis after they post a picture of the first one on IG?

Thanks all for telling me about PID. I had no idea what that was, even though I have two machines that have it--and I didn't even know it. My main criteria for the Bambino Plus was that it was the only decent machine I could find that was short enough for me to open the cabinet door.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Do it all the time on the Rancilio

hit the pump switch, shut it off when the heating element light goes on, 15 sec after the light goes off the water temp is the highest it can be ... hit the pump again for your shot

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This. BFD.
I make two double shots, they sit on top of the machine staying warm, and then I steam 2 milks. Easy. PID is not necessary.
I make latte art every day, sometimes I drag my bathrobe sleeve through it.
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Love this thread

tuesday afternoon checking in. wife wanted a london fog, and I fucked up my heart before taking a picture of it for tgrhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4828758deb.jpg

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Heart? That looks like one of viva’s posts!

That’s close to booner level


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Originally Posted by tgapp

this deal just came up and it's pretty incredible, i would hop on it in a second if i was in the market in that price range:

https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...al-t69151.html

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So call me intrigued. How hard would it be to fix this thing?

I have an Expobar Pulsar HX machine. Like it a lot. It is sooo much better than the Rancilio Silvia I replaced, at least for this dentist jong. I could never get the temp right on the Silvia on the espresso. My temp surfing was seriously lacking. I can spend some $$, but the double boiler machines are crazy $$$. Soo, looking for either another HX machine that is built like a tank or a double boiler machine...

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Originally Posted by Doremite

This is good advice. Do not skimp on the grinder.

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As good, worse, or better than old skook Rocky? I'm looking for something at least that good for ski house. In a perfect world, something stepless would be awesome, but I have been pretty happy with the Rocky for the past decade or so..

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Originally Posted by comish

As good, worse, or better than old skook Rocky? I'm looking for something at least that good for ski house. In a perfect world, something stepless would be awesome, but I have been pretty happy with the Rocky for the past decade or so..

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I also have a Rocky. It is messy and has limitations to how fine of a grind variation you can achieve. My burrs might just be old but I can find myself needing to mess w dosage weights to get to a desired extraction vs having the luxury of keeping dosage a constant and fine tuning the grind. I’ve found the Baratza Sette 270wi to be a huge upgrade in efficiency and shot quality. Worth the up charge in comparison. Built in dosage weight scale is a super rad upgrade.

Rocky can be modded fairly easily for infinite grind adjustment. I've had mine setup up this way for... Whoa 15! years apparently.

A fourth option for single boiler machines is a bellman stovetop steamer... pull AND steam

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Going down the rabbit hole while semi (not at all) listening to a Zoom call. It looks like it's about $150 to add a PID to a machine that doesn't have one? How necessary are they in reality to a noob? I've watched videos of people talking about 'temp surfing' to get the right temperature for a good shot, that sounds hard.

And why would I buy a Gaggia for $450 and add a PID when I could get this: https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-p...MaAsc_EALw_wcB

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Because the gaggia used to be $350 , lelit looks like the better option at this point

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Originally Posted by snoboy

Rocky can be modded fairly easily for infinite grind adjustment. I've had mine setup up this way for... Whoa 15! years apparently.

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Saw that awhile back! Messing w the dosing weights isn’t that big of a deal. My point was more so if buying new, given price differential, the Sette 270wi is a ton of value when comparing the two. Output in the cup about the same, huge variance re: ease of use.

I really feel for Zion Zig Zag right now. I totally remember the process myself. People say its all about the grinder, and that as long as you’ve got a good grinder, the machine doesn’t really matter as much. And don’t get a $400 new machine because you can get sweet deals on used professional machines.
So you figure the Baratza Encore and Capresso Infinity are your starting grinder budget. I mean, loads of dudes are saying their’s work just fine! But just before pulling the trigger you catch wind of the opinion that those machines are definitely not capable of dialing in an espresso shot. All of a sudden your budget doubles ....... for the grinder. And that’s for an entry level grinder. A grand would be more realistic.
So you focus on the machine again. $350 seemed reasonable at first. Apparently that price is as old as the $800 mountain bike. And a “Good Deal” on a pro machine is like a good deal on a manual diesel Audi wagon. Now you’re back to $500 for a budget new machine. As you pull out your wallet, you hear someone say PID. From the corner, someone else says Double Boiler. You’re looking at $600-1500 for a setup that’s getting responses like, “undrinkable”, “won’t work”, “wasting your time”. Oh, did you say cappuccino? Sorry pal, we were talking espresso.
Bring a wife into this, and I’m guessing she wants something clean and shiny with a warranty that makes espresso/cappuccino fun and easy and consistent. Well, that would be my wife, if she drank coffee. And the clean & shiny bit still stands if it’s gonna be in her kitchen!
Mine’s been collecting dust for 6 months, but I get why Nespresso is 10x more common within my social circles.

In reality though, it’s a super fun hobby. Up there with photography and bikes in terms of obsessing and no limit spending.


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Btw, eureka grinders are about 500 and work well

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^Funny because it is true. At some point, if you can afford to do so, you have to realize this is a long term investment and front flip into the deep end. Up front cost sucks but I am going 8+ years of ~4x daily use on my machine. That is like .50 a day rough math and decreasing daily. I enjoy it so it is beyond just a hardware investment.