Avalanche Flotation safety device prototypes

Looks great!

A few posts ago you were discussing how buoyant the balloon is. Do you think that this will cause such an effect that the user will find it hard to stay in the upright position on the way down? With the use of actual moving limbs in a real human do you think that one might be able to position themselves so that they would be face up even if it was just before they stopped moving?

Will there be actual human guinea pigs making a trial run before it goes out to the testers?

Can't wait to see the photos.

cool!!!!

... does it come with that dollar bill? Or can I get a crisp one with mine?

i've never been in an avy, but it seems to me like it'd be scary as shit. would people have the time to think of pulling the ripcord?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JTWASSOC at Squaw

Testing is complete in Revelstoke, British Columbia. We are back in the Squaw Valley, California office examining our film and data. Bottom line, lift bags tend to become completely exposed on top of the avalanche after it has stopped moving. You definately want to be attached to a lift bag if you find yourself in an avalanche. Lift bags work.

Very cool pictures to come.......

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Pleasure to meet you guys in Revy and to see the prototype. Apologies about the hot tub explosive diarrhea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wanghoeby

Looks great!

A few posts ago you were discussing how buoyant the balloon is. Do you think that this will cause such an effect that the user will find it hard to stay in the upright position on the way down? With the use of actual moving limbs in a real human do you think that one might be able to position themselves so that they would be face up even if it was just before they stopped moving?

Will there be actual human guinea pigs making a trial run before it goes out to the testers?

Can't wait to see the photos.

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Avy lift bags work via the acron affect not boyancy like a PFD. Basically by making your self bigger than the other objects flowing in the avalanche you will rise to the top. You can see this in action by grabing a bag of mixed nuts and giving it a shake. When you are done shaking the largest nuts are on top and the smallest are at the bottom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lurch

Avy lift bags work via the acron affect not boyancy like a PFD. Basically by making your self bigger than the other objects flowing in the avalanche you will rise to the top. You can see this in action by grabing a bag of mixed nuts and giving it a shake. When you are done shaking the largest nuts are on top and the smallest are at the bottom.

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Right, but reading this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jtwassoc

In many avalanche tests the lift bag ALWAYS seeks the surface and is only partially buried after the slide stops. In all of our tests we were never able to bury an inflated lift bag under an avalanche, it’s impossible. Imagine trying to stop a three foot bubble of air under water from reaching the surface. As a result of this tremendous floating force the victim will be pulled to the surface of the avalanche by the lift bag, and whichever side of the person is closest to the lift bag will be closest to the surface....

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Makes one believe that buoyancy does have a pretty strong impact, if only seconds before movement stops. Even if you treat the person and the bag as a single object there is an outstanding density difference between the person and the bag, possibly causing the human to be below the balloon.

Edit: Bolding

As a skydiver there are a couple of similarities to and issues that I may be able to add.

1. Some are concerned about pulling the rip cord in an avalanche, how people respond in a stressful situation is definetely a concern. However, in skydiving we are taught from day one about emergency procedures, how to proceede and are advised to practice simulating the procedure in the air. My first suggestion would be to do practice pulls, simulating reaching for the cord and simulating the pull. Do that while skiing so it becomes second nature. If you are still worried about pulling the cord and saving your own ass don't put yourself in that situation.

2. Traveling with the device will probably be tricky. Many skydivers have AAD's packed in their reserves compartment. An AAD is an automated activation device, that will automatically deploy the reserve when the skydiver is falling at a 75 mph or above through 750 feet AGL. The USPA has spent a lot of time and money educating the FAA and TSA related to AAD's. We have X-ray cards that show what the device looks like and are advised to travel with the TSA statement allowing AAD's on Airlines. Even with this support there are still times when the TSA at a given airport will not let you pass. They have been known to request to see the device and open your reserve. The problem with that is it requires an FAA certified rigger to repack a reserve. So even if you get approval from the TSA it might not always be smooth sailing to travel with this thing. Show up earlier and be prepared to be dicked around.

3. Live firing the device prior to using it only proves that it worked that time. It does not prove that it will work everytime. Mechanicall devices will fail, I trust in the design of the safety equipement I use and pray that it will work according to it's designs. And, although we are taught to practice our emergency procedures the first time you end up under your reserve is typically the first time you have actually experienced all the pull forces related to pulling that rip cord. I would feel no safer knowing that that thing fired properly in my house.

Any issues with testing and the small waist cord ripping off? The ABS packs I've seen all have leg loops and semi harness systems to stay on the body.

Also, do all test dummies end up face down? That could be an issue with rescuers arriving over 7 minutes post burial. Having said that... if the avalanched person panics and vomits at least the emisis will drain away from the airway.

Thanks for developing a great looking product and concept, I have a 30 year old original ABS pack that takes a full minute to inflate... not very effective but a great party trick!!!

B

We are back in our Minnesota lab after some great testing in Revelstoke, British Columbia. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so here is a picture taken after our first of three separate tests where we rolled avalanches over crash test dummies harnessed to 3 cubic foot avalanche flotation devices (AFDs). This first slide is a class 1.5 avalanche that dropped 700 vertical feet and ran about 800 to 1000 feet or more. Force indicators attached to the crash test dummies recorded 50 G forces, probably when large pieces of the cornice slammed into the test dummies. As you can see in the picture, all 5 red lift bags can be seen sitting completely exposed on the surface of the debris field after the slide. All of the test dummies were harnessed at the waist with the lift bag attached to the rear. All five dummies were found face down laying horizontal to the surface of the snow and either buried 6 to 10 inches beneath the snow or partially buried with some part of the body exposed.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1171413578

More to come later this week and next……….

Good thread and well done on what looks like a successful test!

Here are some initial pics from the first test.

First the explosives are prepped...

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1171493397

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1171493406

Then the test dummies and test dummy logs (200, 150 and 100 pound oak logs) are harnessed to avalanche lift bags and choppered out to the side of the mountain.....

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1171493549

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1171493538

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1171493561

Then it's bombs away to start the avalanche..........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1171493865

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1171493873

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1171493880

Here the slide hits some test dummies....

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1171493907

And engulfs them....

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1171493914

Then the avalanche engulfs the rest of the dummies........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1171494356

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1171494364

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1171494372

Here the red lift bags begin to re-emerge from the slide.......

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1171494382

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1171494411

Note how the lift bags continue to fight for the surface even as the avalanche continues to try and rebury the bags.......

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1171494754

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1171494764

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1171494772

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1171494782

Here is the mountain after the slide.........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1171494800

More to come.

Here's a pic after the second test avalanche. This slide ran well over 1000 feet and was a class 2 avalanche. Some pretty big cornice chunks were rolling down the hill, and the 50 G force hits were creating some large inner plumes when test dummy and avalanche met. The film reveals the avalanche engulfing the dummies and creating home sized vertical eruptions of snow inside the slide. Lots of force at work here. Keep in mind this is worst case scenario testing being done, a large cornice falling down the mountain and slamming into a victim. As many avalanches involving death or injury are created by the skier, boarder or sledder cutting loose a slab of snow, there is no gigantic chunk of cornice slamming into the victim.

Next year we will be using an accelerometer so we can track the G-forces throughout the avalanche, and not just when the slide slams into the test equipment.

Here you can see the red lift bags sitting on top of the stopped avalanche after the slide........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1171567119

Series showing avy slamming into test gear and resulting inner plume....

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1171568071

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1171568080

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1171568092

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1171568105

Great work!

I was wondering if you used a control dummy in any of the tests? I'm curious as to what the comparision burial depths would be etc. to a dummy in the same slide and similar postion without a device.

More pics please!

Yes we have used control dummies and even control snowmobiles without flotation devices attached in the past. The problem is that it is commonly known that people are buried by avalanches, so the control dummy doesn't end up serving a purpose. It's also a missed chance to test another flotation device. Some of you might question our decision to stop using control dummies without flotation devices in the test, but we felt it was best for the testing.

Well it's already February 19th and we are still examining the test devices used in the avalanche tests and have NOT shipped out any prototypes to those of you who have returned the paperwork to us and are patiently waiting for your device. Slowly the test season slips away. What to do? A good option may be to ship out enough devices to the hard core types who ski or board late into the season, and hold off on everybody else till this summer. That also gives us precious time to make some refinements to our harness. Several people we showed the harness to in Revelstoke thought it needed work. Granted, these were Dept of Transportation avy control people and such, who wear ski boots for a living and tend to be pretty critical of their equipment, but their input was invaluable and in their opinion the harness needed refining.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Thanks also to LeeLau and his crew who we got to demonstrate a device for in the Best Western Motel hot tub. Lee it was great to hang with you but the explosive diarrhea in the tub was not cool bro............

Looks great, and thanks for posting this.

When do you project they will be available for sale?

Possibly by next season. Possibly, not for sure.

Sounds interesting; I'm lead designer for product development & engineering firm in SF. Among other projects, I've been involved in a bunch of wearable computer, body armor and backpack projects for the military which all required quick/ emergency release capabilities. If you're interested in getting a hand, send a PM.

Good luck...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jtwassoc

Yes we have used control dummies and even control snowmobiles without flotation devices attached in the past. The problem is that it is commonly known that people are buried by avalanches, so the control dummy doesn't end up serving a purpose. It's also a missed chance to test another flotation device. Some of you might question our decision to stop using control dummies without flotation devices in the test, but we felt it was best for the testing.

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Since nearly all backcountry skiers wear a pack, it would be useful to know if your airbag offers anything over a standard 40 liter with a down parka loosely stuffed. It appears your bag isn't much bigger, if at all. It appears the only way to use this with a pack is to wear it in front, which is less than ideal, but the combination may offer the best protection.

Does one of those dummies have skis on? If so, was it the 200 pounder and did the skis stay attached? Seems like using a 100-pound dummy is a waste of time and even 150 is of dubious value.

The difference between an inflated lift bag and a backpack is simple, the backpack doesn't hold air so it doesn't float to the surface of the avalanche like a lift bag does. A backpack may have some minimal effect inside the slide as far as moving you towards the surface goes, but it is nothing compared to a lift bag.

The power of an inflated lift bag was demonstrated to our crew last summer, out in the middle of Lake Tahoe. We have a second lab in Tahoe and decided to test the bursting properties of our nylon welds, and our harness strength, by lowering an inflated lift bag down into Lake Tahoe with weights attached to the harness. Using 290 pounds of dead weight we were able to lower the lift bag to a depth of 30 feet. The rear corner of a fairly large boat was hanging pretty close to the water line and our ropes were peaking. The point being that it took an immense amount of weight and effort to keep the lift bag down. Its surfacing power is amazing. A backpack simply doesn’t hold the air.

We were also able to affix the device to the bottom of our backpacks where it didn’t impede anyone while working or skiing all day long.

None of our dummies wore skis or snowboards, maybe one of these years we will attempt this. As far as 100 and 150 pound dummies go, we wanted to test for children and smaller adults as well, and most of the ladies we spend time with in the back country weigh well below 150 pounds, or so they claim.

umm, don't wanna rush you guys & all, but ... when's ship date for the protos?
Not that it'll change my choice of lines.
(seriously. for once.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jtwassoc

A backpack simply doesn’t hold the air.

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As another poster pointed out, these things work more because of volume than because of flotation -- can of mixed nuts analogy. So the underwater testing is interesting if we want to use your device as a lift bag for scuba but not much value for avalanches.

It's SOP for many backcountry skiers to carry a slightly larger volume pack (40 liter) than they need for a day tour and to loosely stuff their down parka to increase volume (the weight difference between a 20 liter pack is negligible). The question remains whether your product actually offers any more protection to justify cost and hassle.

Until you test this thing with the anchors attached, you may not want to market to skiers and snowboarders unless you like feeding bloodthirsty lawyers. Sounds great for the snowmobile market though...after last weekend, they need all the help they can get.

Treepinner: Accident statistics suggest strongly that airbags work. :fm:

IKAR rates it a "Class IIA device with good to very good evidence"

Here is our problem with the “mixed nuts” analogy. You cannot assume that shear volume is a major force in carrying the victim to the surface. It is a factor in raising a large body to the surface of the snow, but it has nowhere near the force of an inflated gas lift bag. The difference is that the backpack does not hold the air it contains. It bends and folds to the forces of the avalanche, instead of remaining taut like the lift bag. What we learned from the Lake Tahoe test was that it took 290 pounds of dead weights to drag the little 3 cubic foot lift bag down 30 feet. We hung an entire lift bench worth of weights on the lift bag to get it to finally start to submerge. A backpack would have been on the bottom in 1000 feet of water within seconds. An avalanche has a lot of similarities to a river of water, and lift bags, relatively small lift bags, fight for the surface whether it be an avalanche or a river.

As far as connecting our test dummies to skis and snowboards goes, we’re thinking that the skis will release a lot of the time, and the snowboards have a lot less surface area than the skis, so even if the board remains attached the lift bag will do its job.

And David Witherspoon, we think we are going to ship something next week. But we want to start with people who we feel will be skiing or boarding or sledding late into the season. There are some hard core back country types here on TGR that we want to ship to first. They include people who live, say, in or near Colorado and regularly post Trip Reports from Colorado peaks that they can drive to. The device can’t be taken with you on a plane, security won’t allow it even if it is legal and you have the paperwork to prove it. So first we want to get the device into the hands of local hardcores who drive to their mountains. The second group we want to ship devices to immediately is heliski operations that can let customers use the devices while they heliski. So we are going to ship some to PointsNorth Heliskiing out of Cordova, Alaska, and try as well to get a few devices to operations in Valdez, AK. We are also getting a few devices out to the sledding community.

Here is video of a test we conducted several years ago in Nevada. A 20 cubic foot lift bag attached to a snowmobile. Watch at the end of the video how the lift bag lurches toward the side of the avalanche and begins to curl up the hill in a circular eddy, exactly like a fishing bobber in a stream finds the eddies, turns upstream and seeks the side of the moving flow.

Video:
http://www.avalanche-research.com/si...03.flv&logID=1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Summit

Treepinner: Accident statistics suggest strongly that airbags work.

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Sorta. The unit under discussion here is less than half the volume of the ABS packs on the market now. With a high percentage of backcountry users on non-releasable skis and splitboards, the question remains: how much is enough? This technology encourages people to push the envelope but the testing so far doesn't prove much and they don't seem interested in doing the research that counts.

Here's another test avalanche:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1172079767

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1172079779

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1172079788

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1172079798

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1172079806

continuing...........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1172080028

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1172080036

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1172080047

Here the slide completely engulfs all the test dummies and lift bags......

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1172080055

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1172080062

..................

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1172080336

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1172080346

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1172080367

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1172080375

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1172080403

....................

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1172080761

Here you can see the lift bags emerging from the avalanche (left)......

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1172080777

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1172080788

Here's the mountain after the slide..........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1172080798

Here's the device attached to the bottom of a backpack.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1172081370

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...4&d=1172081377

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...5&d=1172081437

Our guy had no problem skiing and skinning with the device attached........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...6&d=1172081447

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1172081463

Here is what we find a lot of the time. The "test dummy", in this case a 200 oak log, is partially buried and the lift bag is completely exposed after the avalanche. This was after a class 2 avalanche. We used two real crash test dummies and three logs to try and save money as the real crash test dummies are expensive and the logs are, well, free. There is a problem with using logs though; a crash test dummy has supple and bendable arms and legs, and a hand, foot or some other part of an extremity is usually what we find above the surface of the snow after the slide. The heavy logs don't have the moving appendages, and don't properly mimic a person in a slide. Next year we'll use only crash test dummies.......

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1172187268

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1172187279

These pics are a little blurry as they were taken from a hovering chopper, but soon we will get the pics from our recovery crew that skied into the debris field to deal with the equipment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treepinner

This technology encourages people to push the envelope but the testing so far doesn't prove much and they don't seem interested in doing the research that counts.

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I disagree. This technology isn't meant to encourage people. If that's the way you see it I suggest taking up water skiing.

Personally, I'm looking forward to testing this product this Spring. 'Tis the season for BC in Colorado!

Good news is; prototype devices shipping out Monday, March 5.

Bad news is; not all 50 devices going out. We've got enough of the harnesses retooled to ship out a few dozen devices, but some of you will have to wait until this summer. Sure, you can't use an avalanche flotation device in the summer, but his will allow people to examine the thing and try it on or attach it to their backpack and see how it fits and feels. This will allow us to get some valuable feedback before we manufacture the next batch of devices for this coming season.

If you do not immedately receive your device, please be patient and eventually it will get there.....

Prototypes shipping out now, thanks for your patience.

Here's a 30 pic sequence of a big control slide we produced. Took it right down to the rock. No test dummies in this slide, just a control avy to make the valley below safe to enter.........

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...8&d=1173108743

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...9&d=1173108753

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1173108763

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1173108774

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1173108784