AT Boots in Alpine Bindings - Controlled Test

I've just started using my Axons in 997s and it seems to work well. My feet are happy and warm and I've been using the boots so much for BC this season that I'm use to the way they ski.

I'm a little concerned about the safety of it though reading this thread. I had to mash down the toe height a fair amount beyond the bench fitting because of the squishy nature of the vibram. A simple kick test showed me they would pop out, but I'm tempted to lower the DIN by 2 or so. Did this with another pair and it seems to snap out similar to what my alpine boots would do at 12.

The sole of the Virus looks interesting- the two hard knobs would ostensibly help facilitate release on an alpine fixed AFD.

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Originally Posted by Summit

GODDAMNIT THIS KEY FITS IN THE LOCK BUT I TRIED AND TRIED TO TURN IT AND IT WOULDNT TURN AND NOW I BROKE IT OFF! FUCKING BAD ENGINEERING!

c'mon

Like I said in my opening post... the only way to bake a binding that works for AT boots and downhill boots is a moving AFD and manually adjustable toe height. No currnet alpine binding fits that bill.

The next choice is to change the boot. That would mean removing vibram....

OR

Do what Garmont is doing: The Garmont Adrenaline will have a removable vibram sole. With the sole removed the toe height will be lower and there will be no vibram.

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I know the Dalbello Virus has two hard round plastic pieces under the forefoot that are made to work with the AFD plate... Any chance you have a friends who has them? I'm curious to see how they interact with the whole shebang myself...

Edit: dude above me beat me to it. I'm speshul.

I've got a pair of Scarpa Maestrale's that I'd like to use on a pair of bump skis I just ordered. I know everyone will think they are too soft but I've been bump skiing on them just fine so far with my Chargers with Dynafits. No pre-releases. I can throw small jumps no problem. Dynafits are too expensive and I really don't see them holding up over time or handling a triple with a hard landing into a zipperline. I think the Forshitzees are too high and will be a problem with 66mm underfoot skis. So I want some alpine bindings. I've read about the issues with the toe widths and just verified side to side slop on a pair of skis I picked up at the thrift store (marker bindings). So my best guess is a Salomon binding with the adjustable toe wings. Is that going to be the best option? I'm planning on going to the thrift store to find a pair of boots that have the same length so I can get a shop to mount them...when I'm done with the boots I'll just donate them back. Hopefully I can get a pair for 20-30 bucks. Any insight on the best binding would be appreciated.

I'd say your best bet for new bindings would be Marker Jesters...

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Originally Posted by Summit

I'd say your best bet for new bindings would be Marker Jesters...

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I think that's what Bryon Wilson skis on (Bronze Olympics). So no side to side play? Solid fit eh?

Well it's the same design as the Dukes/Barons and it is worn in the park, so should be solid. I haven't skied them.

I wouldn't go with adjustable toe wing Salomons because they have the teflon static AFD.

PX12s, Tyrolias, and Solomons with moving AFDs are alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Well it's the same design as the Dukes/Barons and it is worn in the park, so should be solid. I haven't skied them.

I wouldn't go with adjustable toe wing Salomons because they have the teflon static AFD.

PX12s, Tyrolias, and Solomons with moving AFDs are alternatives.

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Thanks that sounds good.

If the 11 DIN is enough for you, the Marker Squire works pretty well with my Dynafit ZZeus. YMMV. The Squire has a ramped, adjustable, moving AFD a la Duke/Baron. It doesn't adjust down as much as the Duke, but its working well for me. And my shop mounted them knowing I was going to use them with AT boots.

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

If the 11 DIN is enough for you, the Marker Squire works pretty well with my Dynafit ZZeus. YMMV. The Squire has a ramped, adjustable, moving AFD a la Duke/Baron. It doesn't adjust down as much as the Duke, but its working well for me. And my shop mounted them knowing I was going to use them with AT boots.

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winner here!

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Originally Posted by Summit

I'd say your best bet for new bindings would be Marker Jesters...

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I tried squeezing my Titans into some Jesters the other day. The toe didn't want to fit at all but I forced it in. It was tight enough that the binding toe wings left an imprint in the boot toe lug plastic, and so did the heel (on the top for both). It really didn't want to work. I hate to think how much unintended force was applied to the AFD and toe auto-height mechanism. I decided it wasn't a good idea so didn't ski it.

Although I thought the STH 14 Salomons I ordered offered a vertical adjustment they did not. The shop that mounted my bindings is a very reputable shop in Park City and had absolutely no problem mounting my AT boots. I even asked them prior to ordering my bindings and they thought I was crazy to think they would not mount them. Everyone is using AT boots out here now. The boots fit right in no problem. The test machine failed the DIN release force which they noted on the paperwork but that was just fine with me. They were releasing too late. So instead of cranking them up to 10 I had the tech set them on 9. Since they failed and it was noted on the paperwork the tech had no problem setting the DIN to the value of my choice. I've been skiing a very long time and can say this from personal experience. The best way to get injured is to lose a ski. Unless you are chasing gates or get caught in a slide the best place for your skis is locked to your feet. If you blow an air it's very easy to adjust prior to crashing so your knees don't get killed. It takes experience, a presence of mind and an understanding of how knees get injured but with that information it's no problem. Crank them down until they don't ever come off. Skis are an extension of your body. Knees are typically blown because the skier is a beginner or the skier is trying too hard in competition and is unwilling to blow out of their line in hopes of saving their run.

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Originally Posted by mjanulaitis

Knees are typically blown because the skier is a beginner or the skier is trying too hard in competition and is unwilling to blow out of their line in hopes of saving their run.

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Uh, yeah. Except for when things are non-typical. There are some decent skiers around here who have blown their knees, y'know. Not in a course.

Of coarse accidents happen. Maybe I'm just lucky. I remember fellow competitors all blew out their knees spinning or getting back seat. I don't jump off rocks or cornices unless the landing is steep and soft. I watch kids do the opposite all the time. The older you get the smarter or more reserved you get. So yeah the kiddies might blow their knees out more often because they think they are indestructible. I built a kicker last week in my yard and was very aware which types of tricks caused pain in my knees. My favorite trick is twisters because they are so easy but I noticed pain when I was throwing doubles. So...no more twisters. Now I'm being cautious and only throwing iron cross to mute airs (tips up what ever that is called). I've never flipped but I could see that as a great way to blow a knee. You are at the mercy of your pop and if you over rotate you likely won't have the time or presence to rotate sideways and land on your side so a vertical release would be required. Spinning you'll need to be able to release sideways. For about 10 years I telemarked and spun all the time. I never had a problem with my knees and of coarse as you know, you're locked in. In fact in the 70 days a year I telemarked for 10 years I never hurt my knee. I even ripped the zipper lines and hit kickers. But then again I never get seriously hurt at any sport. Maybe I'm just the luckiest sob in world.

No one seems to be talking about heel release. I demoed some skis with solly bindings the other day, with my Scarpa Maestrales, and pre-released three times in one run out of the heels. I know, demo bindings, but I had them set the din 1.5 higher then I normally ski with. Is the added thickness in the heel a problem or was it just a fluke with crappy demos?

It would seem that the boot makers would see the light especially with them moving towards a one boot quiver. Just make a variant or in the Cochise a tech sole with din toe and no Vibram sole. It seems like a simple solution.

I ran the din down to the lowest setting which made it easy to push the boot around by hand to compare the friction of a din sole to that of an AT sole, even in a 4frt alpine binding with a moving AFD there was quite a bit ... its easy to do try it

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Originally Posted by Ski to Be

It would seem that the boot makers would see the light

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Not happening yet. Marker could solve this problem by making the adjustment range on the Jester/Griffon about 3mm longer. Salomon/Atomic could solve the problem by putting a sliding AFD on the driver toe. Dalbello/Dynafit might be on to something with the hard plastic pegs in the AFD area . . . unfortunate that the hollow area on the toe wings of the new Guardian/Tracker binding seems to hang up sometimes on tech fittings . . .

From a liability perspective to even acommandate an AT boot in an alpine binding by accident would be a foolish thing for the binding makers ... I would bet they make the binding not quite fit an AT boot on purpose

Keep an eye on the rollers on the inside of the toe wings on Marker products if you are using a boot with tech fittings (this includes Dukes/Barons). Regular use seems to put flat spots on the rollers, rendering then.... Un-roller like. I've seen it on a couple of buddies bindings, I can't comment as to how it effects release one way or the other however.

My buddy let me borrow some resort skis and I had to setup the bindings. Marker IQ Max with Scarpa Mas...At first the heal peice was not holding well but after fine tuning it I was able to get them to hold great on about 9. Ripped some bumps and they held no problem. Of coarse I don't ever want my binders failing (that's how you get hurt) so I don't really care about releaseability. For the newbies, yeh AT and resort binders don't mix.

Somewhat unrelated, why hasn't the ski industry figured out that walk mode should be the norm? I can ski any line, steeps, zipper, groomers with my AT boots and they work great. Those heavy stiff resort boots seem foolish.

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

If the 11 DIN is enough for you, the Marker Squire works pretty well with my Dynafit ZZeus. YMMV. The Squire has a ramped, adjustable, moving AFD a la Duke/Baron. It doesn't adjust down as much as the Duke, but its working well for me. And my shop mounted them knowing I was going to use them with AT boots.

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It's been over a year now... any update?

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Originally Posted by Ski to Be

It would seem that the boot makers would see the light especially with them moving towards a one boot quiver. Just make a variant or in the Cochise a tech sole with din toe and no Vibram sole. It seems like a simple solution.

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who the hell would want to run a Dynafit binding without a Vibram sole? that's retarded.

someone who is using the boot on a dynafit setup that on occassion skies hard pack on other skis while say on vacation or during low snow years or has multiple skis for hard conditions and doesn't want to sit in the parking lot changing soles

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Originally Posted by Ski to Be

someone who is using the boot on a dynafit setup that on occassion skies hard pack on other skis while say on vacation or during low snow years or has multiple skis for hard conditions and doesn't want to sit in the parking lot changing soles

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touring boots without vibram = audi awd with slick tires driving to the ski area. I've never heard anyone touring say "I wish I had plastic soles on my boots, that'd rock for this hike!"

Are most people running full dynafit set ups who are on their occasional trip to the ski resort to ride their alpine set up on super tight budgets? This sort of seems like a non problem to me.

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Originally Posted by josef

Are most people running full dynafit set ups who are on their occasional trip to the ski resort to ride their alpine set up on super tight budgets? This sort of seems like a non problem to me.

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Huh? I just want one pair of boots that will click into my 'fits and my 997s. If by budget you mean don't want to shell out and travel with another pair of shoes..then yes...my budget is super tight.

there is no reason a DIN compatible tech soles don't exist. make a small patch smooth for the AFD, no rocker, and still have vibram.

this is not rocket surgery.

Yep. Liability, combined with the manufacturers wanting you to own at least two of everything.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Huh? I just want one pair of boots that will click into my 'fits and my 997s. If by budget you mean don't want to shell out and travel with another pair of shoes..then yes...my budget is super tight.

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If your budget is so tight you should just ski your 'fits...

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Originally Posted by pisteoff

Yep. Liability, combined with the manufacturers wanting you to own at least two of everything.

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salomon, tecnica, rossignol, lange and fisher all make DIN compatible soles with vibram-style sticky rubber soles. just saying.

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Originally Posted by josef

Are most people running full dynafit set ups who are on their occasional trip to the ski resort to ride their alpine set up on super tight budgets? This sort of seems like a non problem to me.

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The issue is not money. I just want a one boot quiver. It takes a while to get a boot dialed and I want a tech capable boot that I can just click into my alpine bindings when I want to without screwing around with changing soles. Don't care that much either way about Vibram soles. My Cochise has a flat Vibram and I can ski Sollys so I am good

In the PNW 95 percent of the time we are touring from the car and seldom hike in unless it is summer. If you are kicking in steps the Vibrams make very little difference

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Originally Posted by marshalolson

salomon, tecnica, rossignol, lange and fisher all make DIN compatible soles with vibram-style sticky rubber soles. just saying.

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That's a longer list than I thought. Once I get my boots dialed, I use them until they fall apart, so I'm not up on what's new. Now if one of those guys added tech inserts (that worked)...

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Originally Posted by Ski to Be

If you are kicking in steps the Vibrams make very little difference

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Bullshit. Next time watch people bootpacking at Crystal; easy to see who's got Vibram/lugged soles and who doesn't. If you are never walking why do Tech bindings matter that much to you other than internet wanking?

Hugh are you a rep for Vibram? I use tech bindings to skin


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums app

I'm still wondering where you "skin" and how you "tour" without never wanting real soles on boots. Indoors? shit, even the faggots like you who'd beat off over the muir hut want vibram soles.

Done talking to you. Have a nice day

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Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

who the hell would want to run a Dynafit binding without a Vibram sole? that's retarded.

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Vibram soles do absolutely nothing while in a tech binding skinning. Hugh, not everyone out there is hanging off of a vertical rock wall while touring. Maybe you are super rad like that, but the majority of my touring consists of skinning. I just want one pair of boots that I don't have to fuck with every time I want to ski a different ski. Makes sense to me...not sure what you don't get?
Marshal, as usual, is spot on. Has anyone emailed one of these companies to ask them about this? I will email Bart (Tecnica PM) and see if he'll pass the info along. Can't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Smiley

Vibram soles do absolutely nothing while in a tech binding skinning. Hugh, not everyone out there is hanging off of a vertical rock wall while touring. Maybe you are super rad like that, but the majority of my touring consists of skinning. I just want one pair of boots that I don't have to fuck with every time I want to ski a different ski. Makes sense to me...not sure what you don't get?
Marshal, as usual, is spot on. Has anyone emailed one of these companies to ask them about this? I will email Bart (Tecnica PM) and see if he'll pass the info along. Can't hurt.

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I just don't believe that if you are accessing goods you don't need vibram soles in some (many) instances. I usually go from skinning to a boot pack climb over rocks, thread a needle , back to skinning, back to climbing or bootpacking. This is not even ski mountaineering. Hell sometimes that routine is inbounds hike to or side or slack, H.C.'s delivery may be harsh but he is right. Non vibram type soles will eventually lead to falling and an accident. And they definitely contribute to harder ascents and less ability to access terrain.

On the main topic for this thread note, I just found my receipt last night (while cleaning) for my Zzeus purchase in Dec 2008. I have used them with Dukes, Mojo 15, Tyrolia TD8 (same as mojo) and dynafit bindings. The Zzeus deliver, hence I purchased a 2nd pair for back up off this forum which I have still not even used. You have to dial in the DIN to work with whatever binding you are using. This is trial and error starting low and letting skis pop off and eject and then adjusting with screwdriver in field. The DIN won't work like a traditional boot and alpine binding setup. It has to be dialed. It is my one boot quiver since 2008.

I would like to add that I have NEVER used the alpine soles on the Zzeus boots. I have only used the AT soles and have been since I bought them in 2008 in all bindings mentioned above. And, yep they release when they need to.

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Originally Posted by Smiley

...Hugh, not everyone out there is hanging off of a vertical rock wall while touring. Maybe you are super rad like that, but the majority of my touring consists of skinning...

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This doesn't make sense to me. Plenty of situations OB - or even sidebounds - where plastic soles could end you that don't involve hanging off a rock wall. Crust or suncups or patches of refrozen, or the occasional stretch of exposed rock+snow you encounter around trees or getting to the top of the goods. Or ever had to cross a partly frozen stream?

Agree that Marshal has it right, though. Not the biggest technological stretch. In fact, isn't the Virus doing something like that this year with its soles? Seem to recall Plake showing the tech in a video.