Yea, we both learned something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Yea, we both learned something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Halsted, we are all on the same team.
Please don't forget that.
Was it a waste of your time because you are not currently using GIS within your work and do not believe you will be within the near future?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Or, was it a waste because you do not have a skillset that made the discussions and applications easily understandable?
Or, do you believe that GIS is not an appropriate tool for snowpack stability analysis?
I ask these questions because GIS development is what I do, and I have found almost universally that if the subject can be made comprehensible to a user community, the value of GIS becomes apparent within any system that deals with spatial data.
At the time we where not using any GIS stuff for our work, due to lack of funding and it wasn't necessary to bring home data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
I'm not a tecno-wizz kid, but I do understand most GIS and GPS stuff. But, once again the CAIC lacked funding to even buy the most basic GPS stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Snowpack stability analysis is better done with a shovel then with a Palmpilot gizzmo.....:rolleyes: Besides, I don't know how you'd mount it on the end of a shovel shaft......:eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
When you look at all the recent spatial variability snowpack studies, it all boils down to the fact that you can't trust just one snowpit. In order to do a good stability evaluation you need to dig A LOT of snowpits. And since we have a hard time just getting folks to dig ANY snowpits; what good is a few snowpits entered into a GIS system? I think GIS is a "interesting" tool for snow researchers. But, I don't see it as that valuable a tool for daily observer/forcaster who's out checking indicator slide paths or established study sites.
Halsted
Halstead,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
I don't think that anyone here has ever suggested that Buzz's data collector or any GIS could replace a snow pit as the primary mode of discovering snowpack data.
Earlier you suggested that the forecasters had difficulty assimilating and analyzing the quantity of data being collected. You've also suggested at least indirectly that the spatial variablity of a snowpack requires that many snow pit analyses be done. These two items alone make me think that a GIS could be of great help to the forecasting community. Data assimilation, display, and analysis of spatial data and it's inherent variablity is where a well constructed GIS can be of the greatest assistance. There will never be a replacement for human analysis, but technology can "preprocess" data and visualize it such that trends across areas (or the lack of such) are more readily recognizable.
I'm going to stay largely out of Buzz's bailwick at the moment because I think that focusing of avy forecasting (apparently exclusively) is missing a large chunk of the possiblity utility for snow pack analysis. A desktop GIS that can be used to collect data from as many sources as is possible will only make forecasting more scientific and defensible. Funding is out there for GIS's. And you'd be surprised at how willing the GIS communty (in particular the OpenSource GIS community) is to helping people out with the software.
It sounds to me like the Avalanche Forecasting Community has two primary procedural bottlenecks in the forecasting process. Data collection, and data assimilation and analysis. Buzz has an idea to help with the collection and to some extent the assimilation. If Buzz's work can speed up data collection and increase the number of pits dug per trip then you've begun to get a better handle on the spatial variablity. Then, if a GIS can collect data from the field (of all formats transcribed or electronic) and present it for visualization and analysis you've dealt at least partially with the analytical bottleneck.
Note: by Analysis, I mean human interpretation. The GIS can do some processing of the data, but the human brain is still key to any analysis.
Negative, snowpits need to be dug still, we know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
The Archer is a means of taking the data you observe. YOU being the key. Without the forecaster's knowledge, the data is useless. Expertise is needed to analyze data. I am providing a tool.
This is where we need individuals like Nater to help with this construction, in many aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Nater, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Many applications are being looked at as well. The possibilities are becoming quite large and interest is there, worldwide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Many people have called me directly so far because of this thread, and not maggots. They all heard a friend talk about a thread they saw on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Ding, Ding, Ding. Dead on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
No one is replaced, they simply get to do their job(s) faster, better, stronger, more efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Buzz,
Are you familiar at all with bcmaps.com? I know the Utah Avalanche Center is using this site for a lot of their data gatherings and observer data collection. jonpierre designed and started up the site and has done a pretty good job with it. I know he's still working on tweaking a few things and making it more user friendly, but I could see it as being a great match with what you are doing. Just a thought. If you have any questions, pm him directly. I'm sure he would be happy to help you out.
I like your idea too. I think it's a great way to capture, store, and present pit data and obs.
You really believe that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Just because an observer/forcaster has a hi-tec gizmo for recording snowpits he/she is going to dig more snowpits? Sorry, I really don't think so........
Technology has resulted in very significant efficiency increases in almost every data collection intensive industry I've looked at. Buz can probably give you far better numbers because that's what his livelihood is, but I can say that we've seen very noticeable increases in number of plots sampled in our invasive vegetation stem count plots (1m square piece of ground and count every stem coming out of the ground by family or species). I haven't done the numbers myself, but my coworkers have suggested that the data collection systems have improved efficiencies by around 20% (though we were early adopters of technology and the methods have changed somewhat over the past few years).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
H,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Tell me why you don't think so, I would like to know. The more I know, the better.
My common sense says that if I can dig a pit and gather data faster, than theoretically I can dig more pits for a more varied pit data in the same amount of time in the field.
And that is such a tiny part of the whole solution.
Am I incorrect on this hypothesis?
D, I will be looking into this and I thank you for the info. I will def. get with JP as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by iskibc
Thanks, I like the idea too. :biggrin:
I have seen reports in the Foresty market of up to 50% better efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telenater
Granted these numbers come from many years of analysis with our core market.
If I can get 20%+ more efficiency in the field, than I save you a lot of money and time, bottom line.
Well, if this gizmo saves soo much time, why not spend the "saved" time skiing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Besides, if you go skiing you get a better handle on the snow/avalanches conditions any way.....
And I've found hasty pits and hand pits give a lot of information. These can be done a lot while skiing. Have you added hasty pit and hand pit software to your gizmo?
20% less time in pits = time spent skiing....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
ummmmm why wouldn't forecasters like it again??? ;) :D :D :p :p :cool: :cool: :cool:
Money spent on gizmo Vs. spent paying underpaid forecaster.......:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Or spend the saved time doing the job better and more? I am here to offer a hi-tec gizmo to help increase WORK effienciency. Still have plenty of time for skiing, which is correct, invaluable for snow conditions, see it first hand.
Oh, and customize the software however you like, in the order you want. You want Hasty, no problem. It is all customizable. :biggrin:
How about you customize it to pay the forecaster better?:eek: :eek:
Its going to be hard to stand there in a snowpit with a $1700 gizmo in your hand, and realize you didn't get a raise again..........:frown: :frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Halstead,
If the initial investment of say, $1700, that will last 10 years or more that helps you do your job say 30% faster, don't you think a good supervisor would see your work, see how efficent you have become and have brought in more valuable data to work with, and give you a raise?
You are in 1% or less of the industry we are looking at as users. You have said acengies like the CAIC or others do not have the funding. OK, I know this. That is why I am not going to sell you this solution. I can clearly see you don't want to have anything to do with a solution of this nature. I feel it is too bad you can't open your eyes more to the big picture. From all of this discussion, the main thing I see that you see is $$$$. Whether it is lack of funding for a solution like this or no raises because an organization decided to jump into the 21st century, I feel you can't see past this: $.
As the old guard head out, the new techy forcasters will be jumping on this.
Maybe once the snow flies I can show you this big picture, for shits and giggles at the least.
I must say this is a good discussion. Two opposites trying to see the others view. With my background and degree in Forestry, I so see the funding issues and that is why I never went into the USDA FS. I do see your point. But I have one too.
Bottom line:
The lives that are saved from avalanche and snow safety data, if only one per year, is invaluable, regardless of what method or solution you use.
I look forward to seeing what you have to say tommorow.
Have a great evening.
If I can get the damn thing to spit out $100 bills, you will be the first one I contact. :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Your right maybe if you have a good supervisor this wouldn't be an issue ..But, the MAJOR problem as many of us (i.e., veteran avalanche professionals) see it is that the American (and for that matter I'll bet the Canadian) avalanche centers have done TOO GOOD a job, of sucking by for years on a minimal budget. So, when you toss out that some $1700 gizmo will mean you'll have to work 30-40% more because it means we can work our asses off MORE for the same old low pay, you really believe we would get raises? LOLROF!!! Come on do you really believe this???Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Your right, I can't see past the $$$. DO YOU WORK FOR FREE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Why should I work for free or any other avalanche forcaster?? My eyes are VERY wide open and see the reality of the world around us. It doesn't matter to me if the avalanche centers buy your gizmo or not (since I'm no longer with CAIC). Folks are still going to buy my field books. There isn't a single avalanche school that could buy 10-20 of your gizmos... D'oh!!!:eek:
Students will still start out with fieldbooks like mine, before they even get close to your gizmo...:rolleyes2 :wink: :biggrin: Folks will still realize that 21st century hi-tec gizmos are exspensive breakable, take up space in their packs and are heavy....
Your very right. And I can't wait to see how well they do forecasting with their accidemic degrees... But, we shouldn't ride them too hard...Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Not unles that gizmo starts shiting out $100 bills at the trailhead... and there's a strip bar close by......:rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Yes, I agree it has been a good discussion. You'll be selling your gizmo and I'll still be selling field books....:D And the industry will be buying them BOTH....:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Your very right. And my field books have been doing that for years and will be doing that for years to come.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Your new GIS-GPS-Palmpilot will do the same in the long run. Just remember what George Jetson said, "Jane turnoff this crazy thing."
But, when you ask why is the "avalanche-snow" industry still using fieldbooks, I've tried to tell you why. And why they will still be around even when you bring out your new product (see I didn't call it "gizmo"). Your right, the avalanche centers won't be able to afford these units right away. But, will the local ski guide, ski patrol or snownerd? So, don't expect everyone to buy one, and drop it in to their pack......
I hope to see you at ISSW. Your on for buying me a beer for everytime you've misspelled my name.............:rolleyes2 :wink: D'OH!!!!:wink: :wink: And I'm Loveland ski patrol/CAIC trained at drinking beer.. Its spelled H-A-L-S-T-E-D........
Cheers,
HALSTED
PS Bingo!!! I hit the 100th posting on this thread.................
No, but I am given the tools to do my job faster and more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Never said work for free. I am not going to engage the other stuff above. It would do no good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Breakable, no, not really, have you looked at the Military specs the Archer meets and exceeds? Heavy, no. 17 oz. Space taker, no, 6.5" x 3.5" x 1.7".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
This is on our website and I personally did this project:
"Allegro CE Used in Forest Biometrics Classes" (our other keyboarded handheld)
"Students taking Forest Biometry at Michigan State University this spring (2004) have had the opportunity to throw away clumsy paper and pen notebooks and use rugged Allegro field computers for data collection, thanks to a generous educational discount from Juniper Systems Inc., who manufactures the Allegro.
The students have been using the field computers to record a diverse array of tree and forest measurements and create electronic data for direct use in lab analyses. Previously, this required that the students enter data manually from field notebooks into computer back at the office. The Allegro docking station and related software allow for convenient and virtually instantaneous downloading of data to a PC.
Now students come out of the woods with data ready to process, which puts smiles on their faces. The students used pen and paper notebooks for the first half of the semester and the Allegros for the second half of the semester. Students loved using the Allegro, and their only complaint was that they were not "allowed them to use them sooner."
Written by Dr..............., Professor
Michigan State University Alumni Newsletter"
Case study in point.
I agree this is very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
I expect an uphill road map on this solution. Never said it will be easy, but things are already looking good. Everyone, no, that is not close to reality. But the percentage of users will grow, year by year. Word of mouth will be one key ingredient in the success of said solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Hope to be there. Decision has not been made as of yet. And I know a Halstead, so I apologize, it comes out that way. Mine is Ron. Feel free to butcher it. :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
And I don't know if I have that much money. It sounds as though the two of us could go to dinner at a pub and close it. :biggrin:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
52 degrees when I woke up, it is coming!
I think we all need to have some BEERS!!!! at ISSW. Beware of offering to buy Ron, this gang can put them back and lay on the discussions.
I would come home to a divorce it sounds like if I bought. I at least owe Halsted a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avmapper
Halsted, now I understand funding. ;) :biggrin:
Looks like I would be in the right company though. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
I am certainly trying to get there. Schedule has not been decided as of yet, though I am working on it with the the higher ups.
Sorry to hear that.:confused: :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
Have you thought of bring your wife to T-ride??? There is plenty to do other then hanging with the snownerds........:redface:
Halsted
She will be teaching a class this semester at USU, so her travel is severely limited. Plus she does hang around enough "snow nerds", aka maggots that I have a feeling she would pass anyway. Unless there was snow there and then she would ski. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
I am still trying to make it myself. Up to management right now.
Yea, the ISSW in Penticton, is where my married life went ot hell..... Thank God!Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzworthy
But, remember what Robin Williams said:
"Ah, yes, Divorce, from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet":eek: :eek: ;)
Thank you very much for the laugh, I needed that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Hey Buzz and Hacksaw
I think you're both "right" - there are many good ways to collect avalanche pit data. Some have better applications than others.
I'm going to be teaching a Level 1 and Level 2 class with Bill Glude at University of Alaska Southeast starting in November. Bill uses these fieldbooks that he's developed for the classes and Southeast Alaska Avalanche Center observations.
Buzz - any chance of getting ahold of a loaner unit to try out? Level 1 field sessions are in Nov and Dec, and Level 2 are in Jan and early-Feb. It would be a good way to get a bunch of people to use it.
Let me look into that. I will get back to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
thanks mang.
FYI - Bill will be at ISSW
Looking more and more like I and my CEO will be too. Fingers still crossed. Looking at details now with CEO.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
Yea, I have seen Bill's fieldbook. It came out after my fieldbook was published.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
In my opinion, it is an improvement over yours. The 2 page pit profile in the SAAC and CAA books works better for me than trying to cram it all in on 1 page on yours. Just a matter of personal preference.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
SAAC fieldbook
http://www.avalanche.org/~seaac/Imag...tesProfile.jpg
Hacksaw fieldbook
http://members.aol.com/bsfbsnow/report_1.jpg
I am going home for a nice cold beer. Enough work today!
Edit: "this slope released as I approached it to the south" Yikes!
True. But, some folks like the simple one page format and flexiblity of user format. And you haven't seen the next edition on my fieldbook. :smile: Sorry, it won't be out this season.:( But, it does mean I can incorperate new changes (i.e., the new danger scale, etc...) into my book. I'm also considering the binder formate that Bill uses... But, his book is a lot bulker then mine. I like being able to put my fieldbook into my jacket pocket and not having a heavy bulky object in my pocket. It also means I can whipout my book and flip it open quickly, when I'm talking with a fellow bc skier or avalanche professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
Cheers,
Halsted
edit: P.S. And oh, my book is A LOT cheeper.......................
Buzz? Where are the photos from ISSW?
Halsted
Like this one?
http://tetongravity.com/forums/attac...1&d=1160088134
http://tetongravity.com/forums/attac...1&d=1160088302
With mandatory beers of course.
Doug, tried sending pics, says your email is full???
Yep, that's a real nice red X you got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzworthy