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I'm no expert either, rune. But I can easily imagine the choice, for many, coming down to this: am I willing to endure several days or weeks of physical hell in exchange for not interrupting the life I enjoy, especially if I got to this place by mistake?Quote:
Originally Posted by runethechamp
It doesn't take a particularly shrewd person to answer "yes," especially if that person realizes just how life-changing parenting is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
I am not against the right of a woman to choose. But this is guerilla freakin BS. What percentage of abortions are really performed after incest or rape? Not many people would have a problem with an early term abortion under such conditions.
Try not to be so emotional PNW, this aint a football match.
Go back and read the proposed SD law - no abortion except if mother's life threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
The proposed law talked about in this thread does just that. And if you know someone who has been through it, then I think it tends to be more of an emotional subject. Probably more so than a football match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
My feelings on this are pretty simple:
If you are against abortion, that's your right. But then you should do something about it that may be actually helpful to society. Work for clinics which provide alternatives, help educate the public about your point of view, offer your support to people in your community dealing with pregnancy.
In my opinion, abortions should be safe, legal, and rare (as Bill Clinton said). Outlawing abortion will not make them disappear, but will make them a privilege of the upper classes and create an underground in which unsanitary and dangerous abortion occur in order to service the rest of the country without family friends who happen to be doctors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Not trying to be incendiary, but there are a large number of people in the world, mostly in the middle east, who believe they would/do have the right to kill their twelve year old daughter if she were raped in order to preserve the "honor" of the family. What would your response be to them if they asked you the same question in reference to them?
Again, I'm not trying to start a fight or win an argument, your position seems to be well thought out and I am curious how you would respond to the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Guys,
settle down. I was just using a quote from the movie "Zoolander". I didn't know what else to say from PNWBrit's post. PNWBrit, I'm sure you are a great guy and I know we just want to see what's best for our nation, but your post was not a very sound one in my opinion.
The first part of your question is easy. That would suck beyond mention. But I already told you that my position is two wrongs don't make a right. I would not suggest my daughter terminate a life even though it was conceived from the most atrocious way possible. Of course, it is still her decision based on current law, but that would be my position if she asked for council.
Ok, as for the rest of the post... since you insisted...I feel like I'm in a heated 7th grade speech and debate. I would gladly respond to some of lucid thoughts of AlpineDad and YesIsaidYes.
Don't really see how you can draw a parallel between the two situations - do you really think killing a twelve year old rape victim comparible to terminating a pregnancy?Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
But...
Exactly the same as to anyone else - keep your shitty fucking bullshit religous beliefs inside your own mind. Support your daughter by protecting her future and health. Consider and counsel an abortion rather than compromise her life and health (and the planet doesn't need anymore unwanted children).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
ummm... make that a 6th grade speech and debate.
This law should be a boon to the Social Net of SD, since they'll now have more people depending on public medicine, welfare, schooling, green stamps, etc. and these same conscientious lawmakers will certainly back up their "right to life" with the means to actually live it, no?
It also just seems so hypocritical. To take a line from the family guy:
Abortion: That's the only way conservatives don't like to kill people.
PNW, yes I read the article, but I think this debate has extended beyond the circumstances of just rape or incest. You yourself have broadened it by stating that a "fetus is not a baby". I would like to know what you think of my own personal example. Read my earlier post about my wife and I. You do not have to be a religous freak to believe life could begin before birth.
Mangoe dont you ever qoute such a shitty movie again!
That's a funny line even though people would categorize me as a friggin conservative..Quote:
Originally Posted by MassLiberal
But.... not for much longer if you get your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnoe
and if you happen to live in SD Uncle Billy will get to visit the baby every other weekend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Agreed. That's why I stated earlier that paternal rights is the first issue that needs to be addressed in that sick situation.
Cono - I don't think there is a legally measurable line that makes one abortion o.k. and another not. But that absolutely does not give society the right to legislate against all terminations from late term to the morning after pill. The SD law reads like it was written by the Talliban and is an insult to a modern democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
Congratulations on your twins.
There is a simple reason why people are so adamant on the issue. It comes down to the highest crimes in humanity: taking the life of another. The devil is in the details of what is a human life. The anti-choice people believe that the fetus is a person and those involved in abortion are murderers. While certain pieces of religious or philosophical doctrine are possible to overlook when those who do not believe as you do violate that doctrine, murder is virtually impossible to ignore. This is why anti-choice people get so worked up over the pro-choice people (and there is a great spectrum between the two).
This argument is only about two basic questions with a partially irrelevant follow up:
1. When does the potential for human life become de jure human life?
Prior to the act of sex when there is a potential for sperm or egg getting into position where they could at some point be available to meet should the act of sex occur?
During the act of sex when there is a potential for sperm and egg meeting?
Upon fertilization? After implantation?
During pregnancy? When? The start? When a certain point of mental development is reached? When the life can be self sustaining?
The point of natural birth?
If you decide de jure human life occurs prior to natural birth, then
2. Under what circumstances can this de jure life still be terminated?
Threat to mothers life? How certain of a threat?
Rape?
Incest?
Threat to mother's health? How great and how certain? Does it just have to be a physical threat?
Severe birth defect? How severe? Even if it is survivable? Even if the parents can afford the financial burden?
Unfit parents? Legalyl unfit? Culturally by age and maturity? Financial means?
Overpopulation rules? (think Chinese mandatory abortion law)
How do you draw your answers to these questions?
Religious doctrine?
Personal philosophy?
Some sort of logic or scientific reasoning?
Enlightened cultural pragmaticism?
The voices in your head (or on the AM talk radio)?
-------------------
I believe one should be able to ask, then answer. Here are mine:
1. I believe that life starts with sentience and ability to survive without artificial means
2. I believe that the mothers life and real health always come before that of the fetus or unborn life unless she decides otherwise. I believe other exceptions are rape, incest, and if a birth defect is found that will cause undue suffering or death before adulthood or if treatment is beyond the means of the parents.
Because the voices told me...
When it comes to being financially or otherwise unfit to care for a child that has met my definition for life in 1., I think it is still morally reprehensible to abort.
For the record I am in favor of capital punishment (though not as it stands in the US), corporal punishment, euthanasia, and mandatory civics and parenting classes. I am against torture.
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That long list of countries, the South and Central American countries are predominantly Catholic and there for culturally predisposed to restrictive abortion law.
If abortion was used more, there would be a chance that the arguing in this thread, and the thread itself, would not exist. That would be a success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
It depends on how far along the pregnancy is. For example:
I wouldn't make a distinction between killing a twelve year old rape victim and killing a 6 month old baby. Nor would I make a distinction between killing a 6 month old baby and a newborn. I would also have a hard time makeing a distinction between killing a newborn and a baby who was eight and a half months along but still in the womb. There is legal precident for this as well. There has been more than one case where someone was convicted of manslaughter for causing the death of a fetus who was at 8+ months.
Here is where it gets tricky though. How far back do you extend "personhood"? You could say it starts at viability, but that is arbitrary because viability is largly a matter of technology. What is viable today was not 20 years ago, what is not viable today might be in 20 years; so you get a moving goal post. That seems like a nightmare waiting to happen and bad law.
If I am pressed for an answer, I would have to say that "personhood" starts with brain activity. I know that that is somewhere around 24 weeks, so you have a fully formed body, fingers, toes, et all. But the lack of brain activity comprises most of our definition of death, so it seems proper that the presence of brain activity play heavily into our definition of life.
PNWbrit, where would you draw the line? When, in your book, does that mass of tissue become a human with all the appropriate rights?
Fair enough. Thanks.Quote:
Exactly the same as to anyone else - keep your shitty fucking bullshit religous beliefs inside your own mind. Support your daughter by protecting her future and health. Consider and counsel an abortion rather than compromise her life and health (and the planet doesn't need anymore unwanted children).
Would you prefer that children be raised only by those who are able, willing and ready to have and care for children, or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmear
Indeed. One could easily stretch it as far as saying each individual sperm is 'viable'. Meaning that every time you flush that tissue or condom, you're killing millions.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
When this thread drops off the front page, lets discuss gun rights and the war in Iraq, cuz that shit never gets old.
"Wasting the seed":Quote:
Originally Posted by seatosky
You can only be charged with a murder or two a month... remember you are only supposed to have sex with your wife and she is only going to ovulate once a month unless you got her on crazy fertility drugs.
See my post on the Page 4
Can I get three soft tacos, a chilito, and ah.......Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
Dude, Shera cooked me the BEST tacos tonight. Soooo fucking good. Really. Shera, :yourock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by seatosky
hehehe, a particular Monty Python movie comes to mind :biggrin:
Dude, I'll be there in an hour for some tacos!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
B11s = voice of reason? What the hell is this world coming to? :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Every sperm is sacred - Monty Python
There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then,
There are those that follow Mohammed,
But I've never been one of them...
I'm a Roman Catholic, and have been since the day I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics,
Is they'll take you as soon as you're warm...
You don't have to be a six-footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on -
You're a Catholic the moment dad came...
because...
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.
Let the heathen spill theirs, on the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for each sperm that can't be found
Every sperm is wanted, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is useful, every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine
And mine
And mine
Let the Pagan spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain,
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.
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this from a guy with 5000 posts about what exactly? Dude I'm sure it's all deja vu by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
Attachment 10767
Deja Vu-The illusion of having already experienced something actually being experienced for the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Cop
SEARCH FUNCTION JONG!
Funny, you never seem to tire of this amazingly fresh little tidbit. Jong! Just 5000 more times and it will finally be funny.:rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
you forgot about euthenasiaQuote:
Originally Posted by MassLiberal
I am just a unfrozen caveman lawyer. I ponder over things like how they keep the fire from flickering inside of the light buld above my computer screen. When I recieve a fax I sometimes wonder if little demons are inside of the machine typing the letters onto the page. Your world confuses me. But I do know this, when a state passes a blatantly unconstitutional law like this we can pray that the Circuit Court holds it unconstitutional and the Supreme Court denies certoriari to save face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garwhal
Keyrock's words are just as true today as they were in his time. The court allows allows a full hearing. Did you hear that Keyrock... keyrock?
(Keyrock) I'm sorry, I was listening to all those little spirit voices in this phone.
Yes, but then that's a decision made after the fact that the woman got pregnant. I just don't think anyone would say that prevention doesn't matter because they can just have an abortion afterwards if something goes wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmear
Yes, and that's why conservatives don't want to teach kids about contraception, and embrace abstinence only education.
once again, the right wing makes no sense.
Dude, you are painting some pretty Broad strokes with that brush. If you are referring to all degrees of conservatives then i would say your statement is not accurate of the majority. Shit, most of you have proabaly labeled me a neocon by now, but i am actually against the death penalty, pro choice, and pro legalization.Quote:
Originally Posted by MassLiberal
Sterilize the population.
Offer fertility drugs to those who actually want to get pregnant.
Problem solved.
Sick and ashamed and happy (or go with Kurt Vonnegut's "Welcome to the Monkeyhouse" (but that wouldn't be as fun)),
d.
Fine, then distribute free condoms in High Schools.
Didn't think so.