Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeedashbo
Can someone please post a picture of this line?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeedashbo
Can someone please post a picture of this line?
just curious how does a post get moved?
phil - I think the mod can move a post. This thread got nominated to the Hall-of-Fame - so he moved it
Indeed stupid people do stupid things. We all act imortal and irrational at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
Although I don't know you I assume that you are a patroller at Baker and following an incident like this I realize how easy it can be for you to feel frustrated and pissed at the lemmings that venture into the BC without knowledge and caution.
However, it bums me out to see patrollers (once again assuming you are one) take the stance of superiority to other skiers around when an incident like this takes place and to toss comments like yours around. I know your comment is from frustration but I hope it doesn't lead you to mis-judge other skiers who frequent the BC in your neck of the woods.
[/thread hijack]
Uh, it's not really technically a line. It requires several tarzan tree swings over chutes from pillows to pillows. It barely holds coastal snow. McConkey's wet dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by alto
Anybody who thinks they can stay out of the terrain trap in Oi Valley needs to have their head checked. There was a body buried there for over a year and a half because the top of the first knob broke 13 feet deep, and went clear thru that whole gully, leaving deposits over 30 feet deep in places. That slide killed another up by chair 8.
1300 posts and still don't have a clue JONG.Quote:
Originally Posted by powstash
Practice what you preach.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
nope, he's not a patroller.Quote:
Originally Posted by powstash
It's often easy to correctly judge skiers and boarders who frequent the BC in our neck of the woods as idiots because they ignore warning signs posted all over the place (including the back of the passes and tickets, etc), don't carry gear, and cop attitude when you approach them to tell them what they're doing wrong. When I encounter people w/o gear in the BC I make a practice of trying to explain nicely what it is they are doing wrong, what they could do to be safer, and why it's important... and only start pulling passes if they start getting all pissy at me. I probably am coming across as being a self-righteous prick (esp. since I'm NOT a patroller) but hey, if it helps make the area safer then I'm not worried about what they think of me. Call the patrol if you think I'm in the wrong and see what they say.
The hard part is when they have gear with them, because then you don't know if they have skills or just a membership to REI.
So let me get this straight. You guys are NOT patrollers and you pull peoples passes? WTF are you thinking? :cussing:
They're thinking they might not want to risk their lives digging these fools out later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
Yes - I wholeheartedly agree that a 'just looking at you' test should not warrant a pass pull. But OTOH - who do you think will be saving their asses when people don't show up for work? Who else might be put in danger because someone who didn't know better wanted to go for the 'fresh pow over there'
?
What's your solution?
Tracy,
As someone who spends well over 100 days a year skiing and observing avalanche terrain in the CO backcountry, I am 100% in favor of personal responsibilty. Which means that you stay out of my face and I'll stay out of yours. If I think you are endangering me, I'll go somewhere else. But to be self righteous enough to think its my responsibilty to judge who and who shouldn't be out there is out of the question. Taking a lift ticket without authority is called stealing.
I will defer to those who have more backcountry experience in this case, Dirk. If I ever stumble into a dangerous situation on your watch, I would appreciate and welcome a heads up. I won't be asking for your credentials while saying thank you.
Yep, I don't want to have to dig them out later (although I will if I have to) and I certainly don't want them to have to dig me out either, esp. since they will be using their hands, skis, snowboard, or goggles to dig with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
First of all, there is a difference between pure BC (no lifts at all) and "sidecountry" where you can easily access stashes beyond the lifts. In the BC, yeah, go personal responsibility, but in "sidecountry" situations I'm not so game.
Second, I find it's pretty hard to just "go somewhere else" when you've hiked or skinned for an hour or whatever to get where you are in the first place. I can't count the number of times my party or another party is doing everything right (safe zones, avoiding sketchy slopes even if it means going farther and working harder to get there) and some morons jump in on top of us w/ no regard for any BC safety rules.
Pulling passes is something I do very rarely and only when it's justified. Once the pass is pulled, I notify patrol and tell them I'm sending some poachers to the office. They take a little test about the ski areas BC policy and if the offenders are nice about it they get their pass back. If they complain about some random guy (me or otherwise) pulling their pass for being OB w/o gear, the ski area will not have any sympathy for them.
I wonder how many more BC deaths it would take for Baker to close their boundaries altogether. They never had any bc policy before the Feb 1999 superslide that killed a few people.
Diggler - i wouldn't pull someones pass myself but Baker is a bit of a special case. Im sure the locals will explain
No need to explain about the baker crew. Its pretty obvious. Tough guys. I still say taking a lift ticket is a good way to get a pole tip through the windpipe, but whatever. I just don't get the attitude.
MBS: "Here is a good deal for you stay away from baker or expect to get the shit kicked out of you. "
MBS: "Somebody should take your friend asside and kick the living shit out of him for his stupidity. I have no pateince for idiots in the backcountry, especially if they show no regard for others. If your friend tried to pull that shit out here, I gaurentee that he would never set foot on the mountain again."
Aww, that's just MBS. His breath's worse than his bark, which is worse than his bite. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
I'm not after the pole tip through the windpipe, nor am I out to get people. I don't recommend pulling passes for anyone that doesn't know the Howats and the patrollers personally, and I maybe pull 1 or 2 passes a year, tops. Most confrontations end with favorable "oh, sorry, I didn't know, thanks for telling me..." results, which is fine by me.
I've skied many a seasons as a local both in CO, UT, and WA- and as harsh as it sounds- Hop is right on target. Baker is an exception (as Leelau has pointed out). These guys at Baker are not trying to act like dicks or "I'm holier than you" type thing- but the terrain that is so easily accessed at Baker is also extremely dangerous. If more and more people continue to put others in danger than eventually it may get mgmt to revisit their policy of allowing useage of the adjacent BC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
What these guys pretty much are saying is if a bad sitation occurs and those in question blatently ignore any advice given by a knowledgeable local- "I'm taking your ticket and we're going to talk to Patrol. If Patrol wants to give it back to you, that's their decision" But they are only getting the 'violaters' to Patrol for Patrol to then have that important discussion. Patrol randomly stops and audits people in the BC and pulls tix as the policy is enforced for everyone's safety. As harsh as it sounds, these guys are helping to save lives and get those in question to the proper authority. These guys don't want to police this. Like Hop said, it's only in one or two incidences when people don't listen to their advice, that they get Duncan (GM/Owner) or Patrol involved.
from Website- and also listed on all tickets & trail maps/signs:
MT. BAKER SKI AREA BACKCOUNTRY POLICY
If you leave the ski area boundary into the backcountry or re-enter the ski area from the backcountry, you must have all of the following or you will lose your ski area privileges:
1. Avalanche transceiver and demonstrated ability to use it
2. A partner
3. Shovel
4. Knowledge of the terrain and your ability.
5. Avalanche knowledge
6. Knowledge of local avalanche conditions;
• know this winter’s snowpack layers
• know the recent snowfall & type
• know current NW Avalanche Center forecast
• know today’s weather forecast (snowfall, temperature & visibility)
Probes and Handi-com radios are recommended.
VIOLATORS WILL BE EXPELLED FROM THE SKI AREA.
Hop - I'm stunned people actually allowed you to cut their pass off!Quote:
Originally Posted by hop
I've certainly had the desire to do it myself but it seems like it's making a dangerous situation even worse. Most gapers react badly enough to just the suggestion that they shouldn't be going somewhere or being asked if they're beeping.
Yep, sometimes I'm surprised too. But you'd be surprised how a "be informative and nice" approach works.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Once it gets to the pass pulling point I've usually already talked to patrollers (who may or may not be waiting at the bottom). At that point the offenders know just how in the wrong they were.
That's what I meant. I know Baker has an open boundaries policy. So does Crystal I guess. I don't know that I'd personally have the balls to cut someones pass but I'd be so pissed if some idiots jeopardized those open boundaries. OTOH - what can you do? There seems to be an endless supply of idiots
I still don't buy this" baker is the exception" stuff.
Lets use a couple of analogies here:
If I'm driving down the road, hauling ass and swilling on a fifth of Beam, would you pull me over and take away my keys and license? God help you if you did, but more likely you would call and let the proper authorities handle it.
If Tracy in Brooklyn saw a crack head jump off the Brooklyn Bridge would she feel responsible for the body retrieval? No. Would she feel like its her fault that she didn't stop him? I would hope not.
As for idiots that have been warned, I say fuck'em. Its not your worry.
Like i said diggler - I wouldn't do it but I can certainly understand why someone would
Perhaps some of the long time locals could chime in here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
I personally would not try to pull somebody's pass unless I was employed to do so- however I would ensure that an employee was notified promptly and that the group was met by Patrol. It is your responsibility to bring up the discussion with unprepared touring group to offer important insight- and if necessary, report them to Patrol- without knowledge and proper gear- THEY ARE A HAZARD
Baker Patrol monitors channel 9.11 and most people who ride the BC carry radios with them- so they are easy to contact. Baker's boundary policy is in plain view on signage at high traffic exit points on what is required to utilize the BC along with the backs of tickets. Plain and simple. It is your responsiblity as a backcountry skier/boarder to educate and inform if necessary. To prevent accidents, it is imperative in such a high usage area like Baker.
No, its not.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Except if you mean that it has a safer snowpack on average than 90% of the rest of the world, then, yea its SPECIAL.
Poor analogy. I am not a fellow crackhead or dealer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
If I was a base jumper who launched off the bridge 2-3 times a week...
and then I saw a kid try to copy me with a backpack, fishing line and bedsheets...
I'd have something to say to them - if only for the purely selfish reasoning that they'll get it closed down for people who know what they're doing.
Hey, I respect both sides of the argument so forgive me for not being able to resist playing devil's advocate.
Absolute Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel99
Huh? . . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel99
Does the Baker militia clip tickets for fast and out of control skiing in area? Drunk/Stoned Skiing? Jumping on trails?
Education is cool, stealing $30 isn't.
I thought being stoned at Baker was a requirement?Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
aye - I have to agree about the education part. I do a lot of trail work and educating people about biking responsibly is tough. Too much and it sounds like lecturing. Cutting a ticket - Im just not so sure it will get a message into really hard heads. I'm sympathetic but I don't think I would do it but I can understand why you'd do it.
Funny chinese character guy - I meant that I've always thought of Baker as a place where ducking ropes and getting into shit is especially easy. Now that I think a little more - most ski areas are like that so I guess i was wrong there.
LL,
I'm all for education 100%, but to say it is my "responsibility" to educate is just wrong. Will I make comments to people or discuss concerns? Sure. But I have no right or authority to tell them to do anything. This is America and last time I checked WA was a part of it. Those people have a right to be there whether I like it or not.
How is that? Do you know where all the hazards are, at any given area, on any given day? So who is ultimately responsible for educating someone who continually puts other people in danger? I'm not saying you should lecture somebody- but at least start a quick conversation to remind them where they are- like... "hey, do you guys have any avy gear?" or "Hey, you know that line cliffs out into a dangerous terrain trap, right?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
I leave any ticket pulling to resort mgmt & patrol. But if somebody is acting recklessly and placing others in danger- then yes, it's your right to tell them. And if they continue to be a concern- then notify Patrol. But I guess in your book, ignorance is bliss. Fuck it, let them continue. It's America. Maybe next time they'll drop in above me without thinking and start a slide.
--------------------------------
As for "It's America" - well, it is and people can do what they want- however---> Rules/Policy at Mt Baker is that without Avy Gear, etc...you are not allowed to access the backcountry. http://www.mtbaker.us see mountain policy section
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I may not agree fully with how some guys try to get their point across- but the crew at Baker is a solid group. These are good people and they do not want to see repeats of what happened at the area in '98-'99. There's some bad history there. Like Hop stated- there are usually only one or two incidents a year where you'd even need to get Patrol involved. Usually a nice, quick conversation is all that is needed to get the other party using their brain. Although not "employed" by Mt Baker, many of these guys are associated with Baker on a sponsorship level so they do have a stake in the operations of the resort and feel a responsibility to at least try and educate people before they do something that not only could endanger themselves but others. I see no harm in this.
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but I don't want to get into a big debate- as it's been done before. This thread has kind of been diverted.
Peace everyone!
I guess I'm looking at this from a broader perspective than just Mt Baker OB. I do not go to ski areas and do my best to get away from everybody in the bc, not just the idiots. Therefore I focus on myself and my partners. I'd suggest that if you feel threatened by other people, then head the opposite direction asap.
What I think is just as ridiculous as idiots in the bc, are the self righteous people who cannot mind their own business and think its their job to be hero and save everybody. People are going to be stupid and they are going to die. Whether its skiing, driving, on the river, etc. You cannot save someone who doesn't want to be saved. I've seen this first hand. When he died was I bummed? Yep. Did I feel like it was my fault? Absolutely not. Had he been warned? Yep, plenty.
PS. Can someone post the WA statute that describes what level of training avy gear, etc is required to bc ski on public land? I'm interested in how you go about determining who is allowed to be there and who is not.
I'm no expert, but this strikes me as a particularly ridiculous statement. The coastal snowpack may be more predictable in terms of avalanches, but there's still a lot of snow and it does avalanche often. That doesn't seem real safe to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 粉末雪
Hey it's only what we've come to expect from this clown.Quote:
Originally Posted by The AD
and to steal a line from Dr Strangelove - Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the hall of fame
Wherever you have mountains and snow, you'll have avalanches. Especially during or after strom cycles. Relatively speaking, maritime snowpacks are generally more predicatable, and less susceptible to lingering, deep instabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by The AD
But you already knew that.
To characterize the Baker situation as unique because of its maritime snowpack and proximity to a bunch of yayhoos would be specious.
As I said before, I'm not out there to pull passes, I'm out there to go skiing. I like accessing the BC from the ski area. People that access the BC from the ski area are required to have all their stuff (see the official policy that Squirrel posted) or their lift privileges will be revoked. The mtn. does not want to close the boundaries, but I bet they would if there were too many accidents attributed to accessing the BC. I don't want this to happen, therefore I try to talk to people that might end up putting BC access from the ski area in danger. If I save their life, great. If I save my life, great too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
Wish The Canyons would adopt this type of policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel99
Hop - thanks for clarifying the whole clipping of the passes thing. (sorry it opened a can of worms). I just assumed that since Grant was talking about clipping passes that he had a side gig as a patroller.
Access to the Elbow is a very touchy subject between the Howatts and the Forest Service. As its been told to me, technically the terrain is "in-bounds", and must be patrolled, bombed, etc. Thus, they are super liable if anybody dies. The Arm on the other hand is something else -- national park or wilderness area or something like that. They can attempt to restrict access thru their ski area, but they are much less liable for death or injury out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by powstash
Essentially, it's only a matter of time before some retard dies out on the Elbow, Baker gets sued, and has to close the terrain. As a result, the owners and mountain managers have told mbs, hop, myself, and others that it is perfectly okay for us to pull passes out on the Elbow. Most of us never do. Baker is "unique" in that we drink, party, ski, and socialize with the owners and mountain manager outside of the ski world. We have their home numbers, etc...
Good explanation Hop and I understand your point. I still think that clipping peoples passes and busting peoples balls once in the bc to be wrong. If you want to handle it, handle it at the access gates in and out. I'm just not into the in your face " We'd kick your ass and clip your pass " vibe that some of the Baker crew has been conveying in several recent avy discussions. Offering suggestions is one thing but being a jerk is just wrong. And with the skills you guys obviously have, getting away from dangerous users shouldn't be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by hop