Teacher don’t work all year long, but their benefits cover the entire calendar year, rightly so.
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Teacher don’t work all year long, but their benefits cover the entire calendar year, rightly so.
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https://www.powder.com/news/keystone...t-vail-resorts
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No. Not poly ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker
No one mentioned drumpf.
Yet.
I've learned over the years that pretty much everyone wants to get paid more for their work, pretty natural feeling. Most folks like to feel that they are doing the most crucial job and without them the company will suffer - but....all the jobs are important otherwise they wouldn't have them - snowmaking, grooming, lift mx, food&bev, parking, plowing, reservations, lifty, etc. I have a feeling Vail is making it difficult because they don't want to open up the floodgates for all the other resorts they own to do the same. Also, having hundreds of people applying for the same gig definitely hurts. There are certainly some barriers to entry for the job, and they are important, but the barriers aren't super high. Even at $30/hr it is going to be tough to make a living on that and live around PC with a family, that place ain't cheap.
One of the best things about TGR - we have a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects
One of the worst things about TGR - despite said knowledge, lot of people just spew about shit that they have no idea about
I'm not a patroller - many of my friends are and have 10+ years of experience is the more senior/critical roles so here's what I see.
Health Insurance - many ski area employees highly value the benefits. It's a standard ski town set up where one person will be a contractor/realtor/or other generally high paid but inconsistent worker with no benefits. The other will work for a ski area for generally good family benefits.
Range of Skill Sets on Patrol - for sure there is a big difference between the Jr. (1 to 3 year) experience rank and file 'troller that basically does the ranching on skis and minor medical and the Sr. patrollers that may be supervisors, snow safety, lift evac., med. trainers., EMTs and so on. But you don't get the Sr.s without taking care of the Jr.s.
It is a physically dangerous job much of which can't be mitigated - Winter Park is open something like 150 days a year. That's a lot of skiing. And you are trying to stay healthy doing it. Avalanches, collisions, frostbite, ACLs and so on.
The vibe of the ski area staff is critical to the good times. Wanker has great lifties and patrol. It really helps keep the stoke up and thats what I'm there for.
Living Wage Jobs - I know close to nothing about unions but I do know about paying the bills. It is not unique to ski patrollers or mountain towns. So you can go on about supply and demand in the labor market and opine on the value to society all you want. But we need to move the conversation to many jobs need to pay more.
I know you bitches and your kids are better than average, so you are all pulling down six figures plotting the purchase for your next Euro Status Wagon. But be real. Stop with the performative compassion and realize that income (wealth?) disparity creates this giant wedge in society that many don't want to talk about. Its systemic. People need to make more money. Its part of the societal contract. Work your 40. Pay rent. Make a car payment. Groceries. Eat out once every couple of weeks. Take one decent vacation a year.
But no body wants to give up shit. The basic bitch middle class think that are the smartest fucker around expecting others to solve their faux problems.
Think about it. You are fucking skiing. On a Thursday. Working "Remote". And you want to chime in about wages for the service industry that are cupping your ball on the daily? Fuck...right...off. Or at least own it.
So yeah, $75k a year. What would happen? Ohh, the asset bubble might leak some air. Who cares.
Euro status wagon. Lol
https://alterra.wd1.myworkdayjobs.co...Round_JR114799
https://careers.compassgroupcareers....ort_order=DESC
And the wage scale and Winter Park seems to be getting worse?
So yeah, I have no idea how they staff the place. At the entry level, I think they have enough Employee Housing to just make it happen with the seasonal staff. And all the middle managers are the 40-55year old crowd that has stable housing and frequently a higher paying second income in the home.
So same old same old...and F & B has been subcontracted to a concessionaire that specializes in the J1 process and pays $19/hr.
But yeah, "powder bro"! Its not a job, its a party right?
Yeah, lift maintenance and snow making take skills, too. I maintain what I said. The diversity of skills required to patrol is pretty high. Plus patrol works in shittier conditions than snow makers. Lift maintenance could make a closer argument. Either way they're all skilled positions and underpaid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredhead
Because our medical system in this country is completely fucking broken. I was talking to a friend the other day that is self employed and pays $2600/mo to insure his family of 4. Holy fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
And that right there is what so many people fail to understand. The party became a job about 10 years ago when you could no longer find reasonable housing in ski towns. And if companies like Vail etc want to provide what they label as a world class guest experience then it is going to cost them some money, god knows they are charging enough.Quote:
But yeah, "powder bro"! Its not a job, its a party right?
This right here. x Eleventy billionQuote:
Originally Posted by SnowMachine
:mad:
ETA: We should toss in the abysmal public transit situation as well.
Hard for me to argue with you. If there's a position that I don't want to see turn over in, it's patrol. Maybe doesn't matter as much at some mountains. My home hill is big and dangerous. Being a patroller there is the real deal. A couple of my buddies have told me that I should patrol. I've worked there 3 years as a Big Mountain coach. Fuck no to patrolling. Not that I couldn't, but the comp package just isn't enough better than mine and my job is cush as shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
My opinion on health benefits: coverage while they're in season with a employee pay option to keep coverage in the off season.
Let's face it, that's just a fact of mountain town life. A lot of us are seasonally employed. I have medical through my wife, but a lot of people don't have that luxury.
@snowmachine
Snowmakers literally make the bad weather. As the temps drop and we go home, they punch in. They only work when It's cold. They use air and water to make snow. Its fucking miserable. Its three in the morning and the wind whips up? Better get on the snowmobile and check all the guns because the snow might be going in the woods.
Not that any of that matters. But that's a strange hill to die on.
But yeah, we just trade living wage jobs for profits and just act as apologists and go on with our soft lives.
Here in the Fraser River Valley, Wendy's is always hiring and they put the starting wage on the sign outside. I think they are at $26/hr. So if you don't pay fast food wages...I say fuck you.
That's some shitass wages. Almost insulting. The marketing manager is the only decent wage listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I made $50/hr as a mechanic 20 years ago. Good luck living in a mountain town on 1/2 of that. Sure as a single guy, but with a family??
I wont argue that it's a shitty fucking job. I guess I'm basing some of my comments upon where I live/work. Our snowmakers are basically off duty by Jan for the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Any job where you can't hire unskilled labor to walk in and do it should get a decent wage. I'm not trying to insult anybody. I'm purely commenting that I think experienced patrollers are highly skilled.
As a mechanic, I'm definitely not going to shit on guys like lift maintenance. I won't do that job. I have a ton of respect for anybody willing to turn wrenches in those conditions.
My son has done snowmaking and patrol. And I'd have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that he would say snowmaking is harder/shittier work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
I think the change I've watched in the patrol world around here is strange and I'm guessing isn't the norm everywhere. 25 years ago there were lot's of long time trollers at the local resort and a lot of them had bought houses because homes were affordable. When you caught up with them at the start of the season and asked how summer was, most of them would tell you about how they spent the summer wildland ff/building trails/guiding/building houses/landscaping etc. Now when I ask about summers its a 50/50 chance that they'll either tell you about a summer job or how they spent the summer surfing in Australia, MTB in Peru/traveling some far off place, etc. And now those are the ones that own homes. And the ones that worked are barely scraping by in an inflated rent apartment.
It seems like there has been a rise in hobbyist patrollers who obviously don't need the money. Of course this is strictly observational and may be totally off base. And none of that is to say they don't deserve more, but the hobbyist trollers offer a steady stream of employees that will do it for any pay I'm guessing.
You are not off base, I have seen a lot of the same things but then again ski towns do attract trusties.Quote:
It seems like there has been a rise in hobbyist patrollers who obviously don't need the money. Of course this is strictly observational and may be totally off base. And none of that is to say they don't deserve more, but the hobbyist trollers offer a steady stream of employees that will do it for any pay I'm guessing.
magg.s -
I appreciate the desire to see wages at the ski resort rise, and I believe they do, ever so slowly...
I have experience in ski patrol, and experience in a 'union-represented position' unrelated to the ski industry ;
while I would be happy for ski area employees to be paid more, I try to be realistic -
it is said up-thread that patrollers have a month of training at the start of the season, adding four weeks to their employment
( 128hours - 160hours ) ;
If you were able to get this training time paid by your resort, that's great ! and I do not believe that is the [ norm. ] ;
There is also a claim that 40%-50% of PCMPSA works 6-1 through 9-15 as mtn.bike patrol -
I understand this to mean 120 -150 Full-time mtn. bike patrollers
( that could be, I don't know. The author offered a "bet" ) .
it was also offered that PCMRs will be Open until 4-20 -
I recognize that there is a tradition to be open until Easter, and Maybe that will be possible
( last season, by making snow into March, Snowriver was able to be Open Easter weekend, and I believe the last four weeks of the season, they were open four days, weekly ) --
so, Good luck being open until 4-20 at 6,890 feet.
burying the stuff I hope is relevant,
I still believe much of [ski patrol] is seasonal Work - from sometime In November(,) until early April ( many places ) ;
five months would be 640hours - 800hours.
for those that are part of a bike patrol, Add time.
There is certainly a place for Medical Care staff at a year 'round resort, but I am not aware of a ski resort that needs 300 medical providers in the summer --
so how do we reconcile the desire to see those working 700 - 800 hours/ season with an income of 70,000 / year ( And add medical insurance to that ) ?
If the patrollers average 25 / hour for even 800 hours, that's 20G ;
If you want to pay 300 patrollers an additional 50G, that's 15M ( 15million. for one resort, annually ).
That is more than 'a little air' --
My congratulations to those who were able to turn patrolling into a career occupation.
The last data I saw, the average tenure in ski patrol is less than five years; the average tenure of EMTs in EMS is less than seven years.
I was glad that people returned to skiing in 2021 as outdoor recreation was encouraged as part of the response to the covid pandemic ;
I am concerned that the 'sport' may again price itself out of the general population .
I read that PCMPSPA had settled 25 of 27 contract issues - only Compensation ( wages and an equipment stipend ) remain.
Good luck to the patrollers --
( skiJ )
1. I hope the patrol prevails
2. Virtually nobody gets paid what they think they deserve based on social good. People get paid what they are willing to work for just so long as there are not enough others aren't willing to work for less. Supply v Demand.
3. Ski patrol is easily oversupplied/resupplied. Ski patrol is a low barrier to entry, mostly seasonal job that is perceived as a glamorous interlude with great job perks, and not a career. There will always be another crop of gap-year HS grads and early-twenty somethings willing to move to "paradise" and work unsustainably low wages for a season or three since all you need is a moderate level of snow riding skill and a 3 month vocational cert (that you could get in 1 month, or that some patrols will train you on).
4. Resorts benefit greatly from low experience newer patrollers, but also need to develop and retain a cadre of experienced and higher skilled patrollers. Most resorts suck at this due to poor pay and poor management.
Harsh realities:
The over-willing and ready supply for patrol is demonstrated by all the volunteer ski patrollers willing to work for a pass, a pro form, and some early pow turns.
That includes medics, docs, and nurses.
Major resorts have volunteer components of their patrol like Copper, Loveland, Brighton, Big Sky etc.
It's fucking hard to argue that a pay bump for a 21 year old first year patroller's 4 day a week seasonal job is a good biz decision when there are literally people who will do it for free.
EMT and the simpler OEC are pretty easy vocational classes. I teach them. Highschoolers can and do take them. The texbooks are at a 7th grade reading level. Rookie ski patroller is an entry level seasonal job and pay starts similar to most EMT jobs like ambulance and ER tech which are hard and risky (back injuries, patients assualts) just like patrolling. But ski patrol has glamour, pro forms, powder perks, maybe some bombs, and no night shift.
Yup - one of my mate's kids is currently living in 4-corners and bumping chairs at BB and volly patrol at BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Experienced and specialized patrollers are underpaid, under benefited, and poorly treated because suits don't get the value diffrerence for their company between a good snow safety director or senior forecast vs a 1st or 2nd year putting up rope and hauling yet another twisted knee.
They don’t WANT to get the value difference. Because they really don’t care. That’s labor beneath them and that doesn’t warrant much thought after initial hire.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
My understanding is that NSP enrollment has been down, which is a reason why they now allow ETM or OEC training to qualify. That switch, I believe came this summer/fall
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Irony of some of this that I have observed a consensus that former patrollers can make good mtn managers and good general managers. It can be an obvious progression from senior patroller, to head of snow safety to patrol director to mtn manager. They become one of “they,” ie a suit, but not really.
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I know the woman who NSP hired to, among other educational things, revamp OEC education because the whole OEC process was stagnant. I think she'll make a difference. She struck me as quite bright. Ironically, she has never been a patroller.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
PCMR used to have a great voly patrol, Vail took care of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
I don’t know what NSP is like these days, but 20 years ago we called it Jollies for the Vollys.
At PCMR we called them Weekenders. At Big Sky they were the Ree-rees as in on Monday the paid staff went around re-doing everything they had fixed on the weekend, it was a bit unfair but seeing as how they tried to have their own patrol, like with their own director who did not answer to the paid director or even the Big Sky management, fuck em was the consensus.
So things were "adjusted" we left the NSP and the volunteer staff got to be pretty damn good, ironically enough by hiring/compensating a core group of paid volunteers to handle the entire volunteer program.
I have also heard, the Red coat social club.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
i think you got that backwards. OEC is official NSP shit. that's all they have accepted in the past as far as i know. wfr and others like it are not considered as "or equal"
[ATTACH]5[emoji[emoji642]4[emoji642]][emoji[emoji642]43][emoji[emoji642]45]1[emoji642][/ATTACH]
Just figured this needed another look. Maybe if patrol around the country said fuck you to the people who pay 200$+ lift tickets and expect them to work for nothing had nowhere to ski for their "holiday" they might change their tune...Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Nevermind it won't change. Hats off to the guys busting their ass at the Crack of dawn and risking their lives tossing charges just so we can chase that powder dream.
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I am not sure where the author gets the idea the skiing public 'expects patrol to work for nothing' - I certainly don't see that in the pages of this thread ;Quote:
Originally Posted by l7172659
I see support for patrollers - some of which I believe is hard to defend the the reasoning ( 70G for 700/800 hours, for example ; and the fact(?) that Park City had 3000 applicants for 300 Patrol jobs ) and claims about Work schedules based on a "bet" .
finally for today, I want to offer a question about the use of 'hand charges' to mitigate avalanche danger -
it is my understanding that new(?) technology is available that may be safer, and ( other valuable advantages. )
Maybe it's time for Snow Safety to again be a seperate department from the "ski patrol" that is responsible for the injured or ill patient(s).
Good luck to the patrollers --
skiJ
That depends. A lot.Quote:
finally for today, I want to offer a question about the use of 'hand charges' to mitigate avalanche danger -
it is my understanding that new(?) technology is available that may be safer, and ( other valuable advantages. )
Yes there are remote installations like from Wyssen https://www.wyssenavalanche.com/en/ or Obellx https://mnd.com/en/solution/mnd-safe...system-obellx/
but they are $$$ and more meant to replace military artillery instead of hand charges.
There have been experiments with alternate systems to cap and fuse detonation systems and there are other things available such as Avalaunchers and in house built explosives trams.
But ultimately and in the end and after all the explosives testing, someone needs to ski out onto the slopes to evaluate them before giving them over to the public.
I was not aware that the two had been melded together. When I was a SS Dir. my primary focus was on snow but I was also an EMT and I ran wrecks along with everyone else..Quote:
Maybe it's time for Snow Safety to again be a seperate department from the "ski patrol" that is responsible for the injured or ill patient(s).
I think they’ll shit their pants when they didn’t offer Jake a really good job. To me that dude could have brought PCMR ski patrol to an entirely different level.. Just putting this out there.Attachment 507946
Thanks for the insight, Bunion -
"Avalauncher" is the term I am remembering, and though I know nothing about it, it seems what I read was in reference to it potentially replacing the military artillery that has been used for decades...
My thought is If in the interest of Safety, there isn't 'a better way' than the use of hand charges
( yes, the initial investment is significant, but in an industry that is now spending even tens of millions for lifts, perhaps an investment in snow safety has merit. ).
Your comment about the slope still needing to be assessed before opening the terrain to the public is well-made and well-taken.
regarding snow safety and ski patrol, there was a time in my life when snow safety was the domain of the ( crusty, old) Pro Patrol, and I have watched through my time in ski patrol as that distinction has worn away ( I wore Rust-and-Navy for a long, long time after it was 'okay' for any member to wear Red ).
I don't know the details, but I greatly Respect that you were able to build a career on patrolling.
Again, Thank you for your insight -
I remember driving through Park City in 1986, and thinking it was a Cool, old, mountain(,) mining town.
Thank you.
skiJ
I was living in PC in 1986 and it was at that time the best place I had ever lived.
You are welcome.
^^ Thank you preppy boomers and trustafarians for wanting to cash in
Yeah, around here the NSP's are the joke of the pro pattollers. They aren't allowed to do much except adjust pads and move rope lines. They definitely do not do avi routes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
I had a NSP chase me down and tell me he was going to pull my pass for skiing through the parking lot on a pow day. He was getting into his BMW. I laughed at him and told him that I was actually employed by the resort and to kindly fuck off.
I have no problem with volunteer patrollers, but the fact that 99% of the public cannot differentiate the pro's from the NSP's detracts from the value of the pros.
I'm in the "patrollers are seasonal employees" corner, but I think they should get decent wages and have an option to get a Healthcare option to buy into during the summer. I believe Alterra does have this.
Our local patrollers don't do too badly with mandatory OT and a long season (Nov-Jun). Second and third year guys make mid $40's/hr if I recall correctly. Still hard to live on that around here.
Let me add that we use Gazex for mitigation, but hundreds of hand charges are still thrown. Guys that have been around the mountain for years know the routes better than newbs. That's just a fact.
Also, Park City may be the exception. Around here there are patrol jobs available and they're actively looking for qualified applicants.