They probably heard that Omar was comingQuote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
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They probably heard that Omar was comingQuote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennymac
Do I sense the D.E.N.N.I.S. Method at play here?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyCarter
The Baltimore bridge is (was) a continuous truss as cisco kid saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Panama Canal requires constant tug usage because of the potential cost of the canal going out of use due to an incident. Guess Baltimore Harbor isn't that important ? We'll see when we can't get our German imports.
C'mon, who doesn't find this romantic? I think I got to 2nd base on that bridge.
Attachment 492086
The harbor's a little wider than the canal. And the German car import dock is outside the collapsed bridge (at Sparrows Point) and should be unaffected.Quote:
Originally Posted by truckeelocal
The sister bridge was in Bucksport Maine. Drove over it many times coming from and going back to school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I last went under this bridge in 2022. No tugs made fast until after we went under the bridge n our way inbound. On the way out the tugs dropped lines as soon as we left the inner harbor and were steadied up headed out.
The word is the Maryland Pilot on the ship immediately notified someone to stop bridge traffic as soon as the ship blacked out. The Pilot indicated a steering loss with potential to hit the bridge. They certainly train for these scenarios in the simulators at Mitags.
The big questions will be:
Why did the ship loose power?
Did the ship try to make it through the span using ahead power, or stop the ship with an astern bell when steering and propulsion were restored?
Was one of my classmates the Pilot[emoji15]
The VDR will provide answers very shortly. The NTSB said they already had a team on hand to retrieve the data.
Moving forward most US ports that dont already require a tug to be made fast while transiting under a bridge, soon will.
There was still a lot of traffic before it hit.
https://youtu.be/tPpBBRH-068?si=4pfCgljbIUiOtum7
https://youtu.be/tPpBBRH-068?si=4pfCgljbIUiOtum7
Man they stopped it just in time, that last guy barely made it
Brunswick, GA will continue to bring in German imports (to the extent not already being made here in the US and being shipped out from there and CHS.)Quote:
Originally Posted by truckeelocal
Those folks filling potholes never had a chance. Falling hundreds of feet trying to grasp what’s happening then hitting the water. And if that didn’t knock you out a shiton of steel is falling all around you. RIP
^indeed. RIP. That’s a scary fucking way to go.
Someone mentioned the Wire - here’s a good view of how giant that bridge was
Drove that bridge 100’s of times.
It was kinda weird turning on the tv, the first thing on was a video of the collapse, and instantly knowing which bridge it is/was.
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https://youtu.be/N39w6aQFKSQ
Clearly power loss. And full astern once power came back. Forward speed reduced significantly. But not enough.
Also, all those equations without knowing dV?Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiVerse
Well that was a time lapse videoQuote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
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I thought showing it in two steps as a change in momentum expressed it better than simply as force or kinetic energy. The main takeaway is it's very hard to design a pillar that can withstand direct impact from a massive cargo ship, hence the use of dolphins etc. to redirect or stop a ship before impact. It needs to solve for the kinetic energy that needs to get dissipated, and/or there's also a huge amount of momentum that needs to be partly overcome to redirect it. For comparison:Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
Ship KE = 0.5 * (100000tons) * (7 knots)^2 = ~7e8 J
747 KE = 0.5 * (510,000 lbs) * (560 mph)^2 = ~7.25e9 J
747 avg weight = (MTOW + OEW) / 2 = ~510,000 lbs
Another second mate here, hopefully chief mate this year…Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd mate
I’ve been going in and out of Oakland CA for years (APL and Pasha) and we don’t take a tug until after the Oakland Bay Bridge inbound and as soon as we are clear of the channel out bound. I can see the Port of Baltimore requiring an escort tug for a while, but not forever.
I saw a picture of the Dalt hitting the dock in Turkey in 2016, and heard they have had other generator issues in the past 12 months. What I’m wondering is who the classification society is, have they been documenting the generator issues, and what was done in the past? Also, will this be the wake up call that conditioned based maintenance is not safe?
I checked and both of my classmates that are Maryland Pilots were not the pilot on the Dalt.
Please feel free to ask any ship related questions, I’m sure 2nd Mate or I would be able to answer to clear up any confusion, and there is a lot of that out there right now.
As for the “dolphins” the Dalt missed, those are actually towers for power lines to go over the harbor, they are not the dolphins that are used to protect bridges.
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Two questions: 1) Contaminated fuel possibly caused the engine failure? In the past, sulfur in fuel dissolved contaminates but the switch to low sulfur fuel is now causing more engine failures? 2) How practical are tugs to protect bridges? Tugs are a limited resource, right? So using tugs more would considerably slow down port operations?
Maybe just get a couple of 100 foot tall fenders to hang off the sides?
Same as every limited resource. Make more or make do with less. At the moment, harbors and bridges are a limited resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiVerse
Well, that's reductive.
Seems surreal, but what do we expect letting Dali near a bridge? This happens
Attachment 492132
from https://midlibrary.io/styles/salvador-dali
1) Bad fuel is a possibility but ships (usually) have fuel filters/a purification something to remove crap from the fuel before it goes into the engine or generators. One of the strongest possible issues was a loss of fuel pressure when the load on generators increased and the generators were working harder. A reason for low fuel pressure would be clogged filters. You also don’t draw straight from the fuel tanks, the fuel makes 1 or 2 stops in a settler tank and/or a day tank before going into the engines or generators, this is a precaution to let the containments settle then filer the fuel. Those tanks could not have been filled up enough which would lead to low fuel pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiVerse
2) Very practical at low speeds, think <5kts. Depends on force/direction. Over 5kts tugs are not effective at pushing a ship, ships just too big. What we often do, especially going into and out of Honolulu (a very tight harbor), is “hang” the tug off the stern, so the tugs line is connected to a bit/cleat on the aft mooring station of a ship. This lets the tug pull directly astern to stop/slow us if we lose power, they also can pull the stern any direction, or ease the line out and move to push on the either side of the stern. Could this have helped the Dalt from hitting the bridge, definitely, but I’m not sure.
If tugs are required once the new bridge is replaced, the tug companies will build more tugs to not slow down harbor operations. Chouest spent millions on lobbies and bribes to get the contract in AK escorting tankers, those are huge money contracts. On the Great Lakes if you want a harbor tug to be turned on, it’s $10k before they even leave the dock, then you get an hourly rate on top of that. Right now tug availability would be an issue, but the harbor is closed. Tugs take about a year to build give or take how many are ordered. The more you order the faster they are built because the ship yards figure out how to put them together quicker and easier. Nearly tug, ship, barge is unique/a different design. I’ve been on consecutively built sister ships and they were close to identical but were not the same.
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I hear too many times people whining we can't do X because there isn't enough Y. Usually the truth is to do X we must also do Y.Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiVerse
Sometimes, it's something silly, like the other day I heard the suggestion we should heat the roads so they don't get icy. And we effectively can't do that because the energy costs would be tremendously high. But usually it's something we can consider and make tradeoffs, like in this case between more tugs, stronger bridge piers, or accepting risk of loss, etc.
There's no tug shortage that couldn't be solved. Make it a requirement tomorrow, and the shipping companies would make it happen. That said, I'm not saying we should*. Current SOP costs us a bridge every 50 years or so, that tugs might have saved. Maybe that's ok.
* I would not be surprised if tugs cost more than bridges, considering tugs would be required for every port call, and the average bridge only gets destroyed once every 1000 years? 5000 years?
I think the real problem might be there is not a lot of redundancy built into modern container ships and tankers
wondering where you went to school skibird? My son garduated from Cal Maritime. He said pretty much what you said. Tugs not effective at those speeds. Your observations on the Valdez escort tugs is pretty spot on. I used to do oil spill response and the switch from Cowley to Chouest happened fairly quickly. Did not take long to build the tugs. I guess easier to build ships when you dont need to put in swimming pools and climbing walls.
I think there are "dolphins" (circled in yellow) at the FSK Bridge between the powerline towers (circled in red) and the Bridge tower. The Dali just hooked around at a perfect angle to miss the one that was in front of the bridge pillar that it hit. Adding a second layer maybe would have helped?Quote:
Originally Posted by skibrd
Google Earth Aerial:
Attachment 492136
Photo Fomofo posted yesterday:
Attachment 492137
Thoughts on former National Security Adviser Flynn’s statement that this was a Black Swan event engineered by lizard people and/or the Illuminati?
Like I said, it's clearly the Ukrainians.
Was Hunters laptop on board?
Wouldn’t be surprised if it comes out the captain was ANTIFA
Up here in Canada they will blame Trudeau, personaly i would go with Hillary's emails
but seriuosly there is no redundancy in modern ships so the largest tanker or container ship only has one very large diesel engine and i would bet no backup systems
even the Titanic had 2 engines
What you get when you cross the Atlantic with the Titanic?
About halfway?
Too soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
I went to SUNY.Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
Chouest had the 10 (I think) new tugs built before they got the contract, hence spending so much on bribes to get it.
The 12 months came from a friend at a yard. That number probably is from the day it’s ordered, not the day the keel is laid.
Those dolphins are for power line towers, not dock protection.
Prior to yesterday I would have stood on a soap box and shouted that modern container ships have enough redundant systems, but being dynamic positioning 2 complaint with 2 separate redundant systems would be cool. Today idk. This was a 1 in a 1,000,000 event, not a terrorist attack, not ANTIFA, just an accident. Two days ago there was no reason to add dolphins to the bridge because tens of not hundreds of thousands of ships have passed under with no issue, but adding dolphins are the infrastructure updates people have been begging for for decades. The infrastructure in the USA is lagging behind on updates and modernization for modern issues. When people talk about a terrorist attack on a bridge causing major issues, the Dalt crash is what they are talking about. So do we need more redundant systems on ships, probably, but we also need to update the infrastructure in the USA for modern issues. Trucks, trains, ships are all getting bigger.
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Pensacola Bay Bridge probably holds the record for getting taken out by barges.
Twice now, once in 1989 with a drunk coal barge captain and again when Hurricane Sally broke loose some barges they were using for construction building the new bridge. I don't envy those Baltimore commuters.