Heritage Lab Swallowtails (R, FR, & BC)

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Originally Posted by chewski

I figured they were yours after reading the thread lol. Nope but i think marshal gave them a once over and got them looking like new. This was such a fringe use case i would not call it a tune issue (unless maybe like marshal said a touch too sharp underfoot). They weren't grabby on crusts, on ice, in pow or on soft groomers. Literally just borderline edgeable/not edgeable super hardpack.

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Ah yeah that's interesting! They had two days on them after a full tune/basegrind/wax from 7even skis here in SLC. They were mint :).

I didn’t touch em other than box em! Definately mint coming from KimJongThrill :)

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Originally Posted by chewski

So i got on the 186 FR110 for one dry, knee deep powder day in February, and immediately knew i wanted the FR120ST for a heli trip in early March. After selling the FR110, I ordered the FR120ST and just accepted that they would have to wait for next year. But Marshal, magician that he is, rushed me a pair of lightly used 187 FR120ST's drilled for pivots (my binding of choice) for an almost identical BSL (I am in Tecnica Mach1 130 LV's) two weeks before my big trip.

I was immediately impressed that they seemed stiffer than the FR110. Marshal explained that the same construction in a wider width amounts to ~5% stiffer ski, but with hand flexing and after skiing them 5 days, my hand and ass-o-meter (two different, highly calibrated instruments) feel a noticeable difference (say 10-15% increase in freedom units). I was pretty surprised by the FR110's softness in hand (skied surprisingly stable though), whereas the FR120ST just felt dialed. Fit and finish, as always, is superb. All HL skis i have been in (5 now) have bomber edges, topsheets and bases that are the strongest i have ridden (only on3p is similar). The bases are faster though, and several times i was surprised by my acceleration on low angle terrain and in deep snow. On low angle pow trees this meant more accessible stashes. On cat tracks this actually meant watching out and dialing it back because I wasn't used to accelerating so quickly through techy traverses.

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i was able to get one full day on the FR120ST in 4-6" of new powder at mammoth before my heli trip, and I posted about that above. We did two resort days (kicking horses on the way in and norquay right before our return flight) and four heli days right outside of golden. As you can see this was my narrower ski on this trip, so it got the nod for both resort days (despite being a ridiculous fit for the actual conditions). At kicking horse it was generally soft but heavily tracked out and consolidated resort conditions and the skis were still great. And even on a shitfuck refreeze day at norquay before catching our return flight they proved completely acceptable. Btw, brian (goldenbc) came in on his off day to fit me for zipfits, which was my priority over riding the day at i was at kicking horse, so big ups to him (and what a sick resort this seems to be). Unfortunately I didn't hike more than twice to save it for my heli days, but i will definitely be back again.

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On icey groomers and moguls they muted out the harsh well and had totally adequate edge grip for what they were. The groomers at norquay verge on stupidly fast and steep for how short they are and how abruptly trails merge back together (thankfully it was a relatively empty weekday), but i had no rocking horse effect and a pretty impressive speed limit when just letting them run straight on VERY hard snow. My only real confusion with what I experienced was a bipolar tendency to link up beautifully arced turns when layed over on edge, but then occasionally all i would get were severe judders and lateral squirreliness (not rocking horse fore-aft, but truly left/right wobbles) around the underfoot section of the ski when trying to carve on very firm groomers. I experienced entire runs where the ice was just too hard and the ski just predictably skidded out of edgehold like any other ski, entire runs it linked up beautifully and just sang on edge around the sidecut radius, and entire runs where i could mostly manage only these judders. Obviously not the use case at all for this ski, but i know what these feel like on snow that's too hard for them, snow that's just soft enough for them, and i guess maybe the judders were just those few runs verging between grip and slip? I have been on many fat and rockered skis and this was new to me though. To be clear, on soft groomers these RIP.

And i still stand by what i said earlier: i much prefer the fr120st in too little snow to the fr110 in too much snow. These are very versatile skis for ultra fat full rockers (and even for powder skis in general). They could definitely be skied well any day the fr110 would also be appropriate. Now on to the goods...

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Of the four heli days I liked this ski enough to choose it over the FR132 for three of those days in perfect cold, dry boot top to knee deep powder. There were some wind crusts, inverted pow, and tracked runouts/traverses back to a heli pickup, but these always felt intuitive and comfortable. Stand upright to surf around medium radius turns and swivel quick direction changes. Or lean into them to enter the whiteroom and drive a big arc down the fall line. They could do tight trees and open faces equally well, whereas i never got on with the fr132 in the open. I found that during my 5 days in R/R they always defaulted to wanting to finish the turn/slarve and would inevitably end up taking the smaller arc. to hold a bigger arc took active counter steering, which quite doable, is not a sensation i love. Also, i am a fan of the feeling of a truly unsinkable tip. The fr132's float like a mofo, but obviously it's from underfoot rather than the tip. Once you feel it and learn to trust it it doesn't reeeally matter, but i still feel invincible when the tip is providing the float rather than the midsection. As for turn shape, conventional sidecut skis feel the opposite with bigger radius turns always on tap that can be closed down with some shin pressure, which is also my preference. Maybe i got it wrong in just 5 days on the fr132, but that's my main driving reason for preferring the fr120st most days this trip (aside from the obvious utility gain in traverses and firm runouts).

Anyways, these are solidly cemented as my resort pow ski and even my main heli ski moving forward. Previously 189 pre-asymm billyogats were my all time resort powder ski, and they will definitely get some a/b'ing next year along the FR120ST. The only ski I like more in deep powder so far are volkl 3's, which will definitely be accompanying the FR120ST's for heli next year (unless i can convince marshal to make a HL version before then)

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My main takeaway from that is that I'm impressed you skied those at Norquay.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

My main takeaway from that is that I'm impressed you skied those at Norquay.

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Haha exactly! TLDR...

1.) possibly best resort/heli pow ski ever. Got picked over fr132 for 3 of 4 days heli skiing (last year fr132 got picked over billygoats 3 of 4 days)
2.) sell the rest of your quiver and ski ice bumps at norquay. Versatile enough for everyday soft snow and totally survivable on refreeze

I’m stoked to get mine in the fall and ski them next season


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For those who've skied the BCs: Are they super carbon-noisy and flimsy feeling, or can they take some imperfect conditions too?

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Originally Posted by Island Bay

For those who've skied the BCs: Are they super carbon-noisy and flimsy feeling, or can they take some imperfect conditions too?

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I think, and stress think, they are more or less the same construction as c113s and c90s, neither of which exhibit much noise and nervousity.

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Yes same construction across the board.

My honest opinion is that the BC build is super smooth for what it is, and is at least as damp, if not much more, than any similarly light skis out there. Skier feedback that I have received about the construction lines up with this too.

With respect to the BC120 ST, it's obviously a powder ski, and built with a round medium+ flex pattern, so there is a point of hitting chop/variable at high speed where the ski is going to be a little less stoked. Very curious what others with time on their beta skis think about this, but on my side, I just go bases flat and ski more actively in these situations with no trouble. The ski is totally capable IMO, it just (obviously) isn't a monster truck.

Thanks, guys. Very good info.

Marshal

If you have the info, would you please give weights on FR and BC version of the 120ST?


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The weights are on the Heritage Lab site.
2400ish grams for the r/fr construction
1800ish grams for the bc construction
this is for the 187cm length

My BCs are like 1829/1810 IIRC. Wish I had them mounted up, but life has gotten in the way a bit for various reasons. New bindings are on the way this week and next week looks stormy so I will try get them out asap.

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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

The weights are on the Heritage Lab site.
2400ish grams for the r/fr construction
1800ish grams for the bc construction
this is for the 187cm length

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Thanks


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https://youtu.be/fnKaVW0ChRs
Fun day of slackcountry - continually impressed by these (187 FR120s)

Nice! Some hot pow in part two!


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Looks like I may have missed the boat for the 187FRs due to my indecision and broken arm. :rolleyes:

The 187Rs are still in stock. Can anyone share their perspective on how they ski? More directional, less surfy/pivoty, better for chop, better for slightly more firm conditions, less slashy?

Current DD is Nordica Enforcer Free 104s in 191s. Haven't skied skis that are this reverse/reverse before (unless the 112RPs are close to R build?).

The R120ST are hands down the best resort pow ski that I have skied.

Do it.

I’ll echo this above statement on the R120 swallowtail: It is everything i desire in a resort pow ski. Slays pow. Kills chop. Skis groomers impeccably. Many questions are asked in the lift line. Perfect ski(I have some bias, I helped Marshal with these)

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Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister

The R120ST are hands down the best resort pow ski that I have skied.

Do it.

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I was messaging with Marshal...he says he's updating the R120 profile slightly, so it has the same tip and tail heights as the FR120, but less splay at the tip/tail widepoints (.4cm vs .8cm). Standard rec mount on the 180 R120 will be -7cm and on the 180 FR120 will be -6cm. Given I love the 180 FR 110, at 84cm from tail (-5.8cm) but I wouldn't want to be any further forward in pow, I'm thinking a 180 R120 Swallowtail with its long, low rocker (flat underfoot?) could be the better ski in my quiver than the FR120. I enjoyed many good years on 2 pairs of Faction Candide 5.0's (and before that had Candide Royales) which all were 122mm and were flat underfoot.

Ya I think I gotta do it.

KC

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Originally Posted by kc_7777

I was messaging with Marshal...he says he's updating the R120 profile slightly, so it has the same tip and tail heights as the FR120, but less splay at the tip/tail widepoints (.4cm vs .8cm). Standard rec mount on the 180 R120 will be -7cm and on the 180 FR120 will be -6cm. Given I love the 180 FR 110, at 84cm from tail (-5.8cm) but I wouldn't want to be any further forward in pow, I'm thinking a 180 R120 Swallowtail with its long, low rocker (flat underfoot?) could be the better ski in my quiver than the FR 120. I enjoyed many years on 2 pairs of Faction Candide 5.0's (and before that Candide Royales) which all were 122mm and had flat underfoot.

Ya I think I gotta do it.

KC

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I think the R120 is the move with your FR110. The updated rocker for the Rs will perfect that ski. Having the flat underfoot makes the much better if you end up in something steep shitty and scraped.

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Originally Posted by K1mJ0ngTr1ll

I think the R120 is the move with your FR110. The updated rocker for the Rs will perfect that ski. Having the flat underfoot makes the much better if you end up in something steep shitty and scraped.

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Agreed...we ski steep and sketch and a little more grip might come in handy.

Just did it.

R120 ordered.

Pumped.

I was sleeping on the r105 and r110 and r120 when they were being discussed and made and sold, so i am not 100% in the know about them, but my understanding was that they just used the same rocker profile from the fl113, which i have been on and spoken about quite a bit for 2 seasons. That rocker profile was made to match that ski's extremely large radius sidecut, so i was never quite sure it would fit with the much smaller radii of the r110 and r120 (and to a lesser extent the r105). The fl113 is a super rear mounted, stiff and straight ski, whereas the 110 and 120 are medium flexing, medium radii, and halfway between traditional and progressive mount. I have skied the fl105 and fr120 (and very briefly the fr110), and i think those camber and rocker profiles were pretty optimized to their shape and flex and mount points, moreso than an fl113 profile, which is a mix of rage straight and scrub sideways. The 105 shape is a mix of carve across the fall line and rage straight down the fall line it, so i like the camber but could see the r105 being pretty sweet too. Whereas the 110 and 120 are about drifting and slashing from a moderately upright stance, with some carve and float built in, so i never fully understood the fl113 profile. This updated r120 sounds promising

I'd love to see a visual representation of the new R120ST profile.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

I'd love to see a visual representation of the new R120ST profile.

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yeah yeah.

I love the fr110 so Im going 194fr120 at the moment.

All this conjecture on a ski most folks haven’t skied. I personally don’t want any change on the R120 Swallowtail

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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

All this conjecture on a ski most folks haven’t skied. I personally don’t want any change on the R120 Swallowtail

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Same.

Ahoy!

yes, the R120 And R110 production skis are the same as the beta skis under foot and inside the edges. I added a little kick in the tail (off the snow). I am sending a tech email via newsletter on it in the coming weeks.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

All this conjecture on a ski most folks haven’t skied. I personally don’t want any change on the R120 Swallowtail

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People all seem to like the r120 when they ride them, but I kept asking marshal (multiple times) to press an fl113 in the c113 mold for a bit more rise in the rocker profile. His response was twofold: first the ski was designed to match the sidecut and rocker and it would be too much of a compromise to change the rocker like that, and second fiberglass doesn't press like carbon so it wouldn't have the c113 profile anyway. Long story short: it seemed really odd to me that he took the skis with the most different flex, sidecut, mount point, and skiing style than the fl113 and pressed them with the same rocker. Like i said, people all seem to like it, but i can imagine there is room to optimize that design with its own rocker profile

You have a lot of strong opinions on skis you haven’t skied yet. Maybe try a r120 then post about how it needs to change

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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

You have a lot of strong opinions on skis you haven’t skied yet. Maybe try a r120 then post about how it needs to change

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i said it seemed odd to combine a certain rocker profile designed for skis at one extreme to a flex/sidecut/mount originally designed at the other extreme. And then i said i could imagine how there would probably be some room to evolve upon that when, in fact, the skis are actually being changed for some reason. Not sure how strong those opinions are. So you like em. Most people like them so far. And most people will probably continue to like the new ones. I've ridden every single currently available HL freeride ski so far except the r105/r110/r120 and there haven't been any stinkers yet. I know they know what they're doing

Edit to add that I am also aware that you played some part in the r120, so you probably know some things too. I'm just not sure how anything i've said is contentious in any way. I never said it wouldn't work.

Need to get some swallow tails and move on from the supergoats!

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Originally Posted by chewski

i said it seemed odd to combine a certain rocker profile designed for skis at one extreme to a flex/sidecut/mount originally designed at the other extreme. And then i said i could imagine how there would probably be some room to evolve upon that when, in fact, the skis are actually being changed for some reason. Not sure how strong those opinions are. So you like em. Most people like them so far. And most people will probably continue to like the new ones. I've ridden every single currently available HL freeride ski so far except the r105/r110/r120 and there haven't been any stinkers yet. I know they know what they're doing

Edit to add that I am also aware that you played some part in the r120, so you probably know some things too. I'm just not sure how anything i've said is contentious in any way. I never said it wouldn't work. It was a curious origin story and probably not the final chapter

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So I am super pleased with how the R110 and R120 turned out. They are both super fun skis. The only reason for this small change is to open up their mount window a little, as these first ones ski sick around -8.5 to -9, but weren’t very forgiving going outside that.

these skis were intended to be a one off limited edition (the “beta release” this Jan), but were so popular and had so much interest on the preorder, they are now planned to be mainline skis.

I would have likely wanted the FR120, but with the slight changes to the R120 (more kick in tail and -7cm mount on the 180cm) I’m in.

The last 5/7 ski days I’ve been on the FR110….and I’ve stopped thinking about other skis. The HL skis are that good.


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So the R110 and R120 that were preordered for Fall '24 will have these changes? Is there an update profile sketch?

Yes, I am working on the tech newsletter for it :)

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

Yes, I am working on the tech newsletter for it :)

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Did this newsletter go out yet?

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got the Tech Update email ... man, that R profile looks good.

:ski:

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Originally Posted by N1CK.

got the Tech Update email ... man, that R profile looks good.

:ski:

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Ya it does look really good. I’m excited for my R120’s mounted @ -7cm next winter. After I got my FR110’s dialed I didn’t want to ski anything else in my quiver.

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Yeah I got the email right after I sent that.

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Marshall-- douche your inbox.