Student Loan Forgiveness

Yes, but for every Alabama, there's 10-20 other programs that AREN'T profitable, so it drags everyone down. If the NFL/NBA etc. wants a feeder program that badly, they can pay for it themselves.
The "hey, let's make people do service to get paid back" is a great idea! That we implemented! That was promptly fucked up, where 99% of applications are denied.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/65385...-whistleblower

The core problem is that you have half the political spectrum wholly invested in dumbing down America, so no actual meaningful solutions are possible, just exec actions.

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The notion of “college for all”—typically part of a broader education model in which nearly all students move as if on a conveyor belt from elementary to high school to college and a degree and then, finally, to a career—continues to hold considerable sway in policy circles. Elected leaders annually spend billions of taxpayers’ dollars supporting this model, despite evidence that it’s disconnected from today’s world of education, training, and work.

You can see how detached the college-for-all model is from the reality of education and work in various ways. For example, since the early 1990s, data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP)—dubbed “the nation’s report card”—indicate that only around 40 percent of high school graduates are college-ready.

Moreover, enrollment in college is rising faster than completion, with little change since the 1950s in the percentage of enrollees attaining a bachelor’s degree by age 25. In fact, only about half of the students who enroll in college compete a degree within six years. For community colleges, that figure drops to a quarter.

Besides, finding a job that pays well doesn’t necessarily require a bachelor’s degree; according to one estimate, there are 65 million existing “good jobs” (defined as jobs that pay at least $35,000 for workers under 45 or $45,000 for workers 45 and older) in the United States that don’t require one. For individuals without a degree, there are “opportunity rich” employment options that can lift individuals into the middle class and provide them with worthwhile careers.

Thanks to degree inflation, four-year degrees are increasingly required for jobs that didn’t formerly require them even though those jobs’ skill requirements often haven’t changed. One analysis shows about 40 percent of recent college graduates are employed in good jobs that don’t require their college degree.

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https://www.thebulwark.com/college-f...alism-instead/

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If the NFL/NBA etc. wants a feeder program that badly, they can pay for it themselves.

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Yes!!!!

Simple solution, recover the billions in PPP loan fraud and punish them by making the student loan payments for people on the low end of the spectrum income wise.

Loan forgiveness needs to come with a big restructure of how we fund higher Ed. Just waving a magic wand and allowing it to continue as-is seems like the worst option.


Higher Ed just seems like another thing Americans seem hell bent on fucking up.

Careful what you wish for by not changing the system or getting certain groups out of debt and maintaining a system that isn’t about education, but is about job training and ROI: you might find yourself short on general practice physicians as they chase money in specialty or a lack of teachers as they take their masters degrees elsewhere or a number of other disciplines as people take their time and money in another direction.

I’m also sort of amused that people advocating for what appear to be “free market” solutions to higher Ed think we should continue subsidizing CC and trade school training programs for private industry to train welders and mechanics. Why isn’t industry taking care of that?

2 million 4 year degrees annually, 1 million 2 year degrees annually, 4 years have a generally better ROI but people are doing it wrong because some plumber is pulling down 6-figures a year. It’s just culture war bullshit wrapped up in stupid and denial. Even in states with good trade school & vocational school funding programs are closing from lack of student interest.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Yes, but for every Alabama, there's 10-20 other programs that AREN'T profitable, so it drags everyone down. If the NFL/NBA etc. wants a feeder program that badly, they can pay for it themselves.
The "hey, let's make people do service to get paid back" is a great idea! That we implemented! That was promptly fucked up, where 99% of applications are denied.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/65385...-whistleblower

The core problem is that you have half the political spectrum wholly invested in dumbing down America, so no actual meaningful solutions are possible, just exec actions.

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a majority of university of Alabama students come from outside Alabama. Does hundreds of millions in free advertising make a difference? Until you set colleges up to account for costs and product like a business evaluating one like a short term profit making corp is stupid

The simplest way to deal with this issue is to remove the BK protection for govt. backed student loans. There is an entire debt relief system written into our judicial system.

Rather than simply 1-time forgiving debt, the problem is better solved at its roots.

If all those these were part of a debt forgiveness package, it would be a lot more palatable to do a partial debt forgivness and permanent 0% interest.

1. Improving primary/secondary education
2. Offering more merit grants and scholarships, not loans, especially to disadvantaged, and restoring pared funding to public unis (with strings)
3. Mandatory fiscal education in high school
4. Cracking down on predatory colleges
5. Drastically reducing the size of nondischargable loans (end BK protection) with a 5 year scale down to let college shrink their costs accordingly, and
6. Reduce nonfiscal regulatory burdens on colleges while incentivizing teaching positions and disincentivizing admin, campus life, and sports by having strings attached to any funding tied to the government or nondischargable debt components of student tuition.

And end the concept of "The College Experience" as a necessary right of passage that should be funded on the public dime either directly, by grands, or by loans. Playing sportsball, partying, and getting high is fine, but not on the public dime. Academics first! Or put another way, many people complaining about debt could have been working a job to pay for school instead of drinking and partying their way through their business degree that they don't even use.

A football coach is our state’s highest paid public employee by a good margin. 8 of 10 of highest paid state employees are either in college athletics or college admin.

Structure of the Finnish education system. Free up to a certain point that extends into public university. Culturally acceptable cross-pollination between vocation and traditional academic.

https://studyinfo.fi/wp2/en/wp-conte...ion-system.jpg

We’ve covered the stats in other threads, so I just quickly summarized it as administrative bloat and amenities, but Summit’s post has the data. It’s not so much the high salaries, it’s the vast departmental bloat. One research paper found that back in the day the US News and World Report Rankings stimulated a lot of this bullshit Nuclear Arms Race of spending.

As with the US healthcare system, a shitshow of inefficiency in terms of quantity and quality per dollar spent. In a nominally capitalist system these inefficiencies accumulate when the $$ spigots flow freely enough. We all know people who were encouraged to take on hudge loans, almost like it was free money that would be ‘easy to pay back when you have a good job’.

I know enough about the alternative systems in other countries my family lives in to know the US system needs reform. I do not see how loan forgiveness forces any change on the actual system. But I support some rational form of forgiveness…sliding scale or whatever. Most people I know are looking for a reasonable plan to pay off at least a significant chunk. A pride and ethics thing.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Rather than simply 1-time forgiving debt, the problem is better solved at its roots.

If all those these were part of a debt forgiveness package, it would be a lot more palatable to do a partial debt forgivness and permanent 0% interest.

1. Improving primary/secondary education
2. Offering more merit grants and scholarships, not loans, especially to disadvantaged, and restoring pared funding to public unis (with strings)
3. Mandatory fiscal education in high school
4. Cracking down on predatory colleges
5. Drastically reducing the size of nondischargable loans (end BK protection) with a 5 year scale down to let college shrink their costs accordingly, and
6. Reduce nonfiscal regulatory burdens on colleges while incentivizing teaching positions and disincentivizing admin, campus life, and sports by having strings attached to any funding tied to the government or nondischargable debt components of student tuition.

And end the concept of "The College Experience" as a necessary right of passage that should be funded on the public dime either directly, by grands, or by loans. Playing sportsball, partying, and getting high is fine, but not on the public dime. Academics first! Or put another way, many people complaining about debt could have been working a job to pay for school instead of drinking and partying their way through their business degree that they don't even use.

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Some good good ideas here, although the idea
that paying for school (entirely as used to be possible) by working seems to fly in the face of your graph showing college costs inflating far above CPI and wages.


I know that when I thought about working part time (which I did some and worked summers) versus spending that time on doing better academically (the point of going back to school) it made way more sense to do well at school than sling coffee for $8/hr.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Rather than simply 1-time forgiving debt, the problem is better solved at its roots.

And end the concept of "The College Experience" as a necessary right of passage that should be funded on the public dime either directly, by grands, or by loans. Playing sportsball, partying, and getting high is fine, but not on the public dime. Academics first! Or put another way, many people complaining about debt could have been working a job to pay for school instead of drinking and partying their way through their business degree that they don't even use.

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Agreed 100%. It would be helpful if that was more viable and I think it might need to be restructured a bit. Getting through a 4yr degree in 4 years while working full time is challenging at best, and finding a job that will support that schedule and pay for tuition is not a given either. And as mentioned upthread - a full course load is not a great way to learn new skills, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Getting through a 4yr degree in 4 years while working full time is challenging at best, and finding a job that will support that schedule and pay for tuition is not a given either. And as mentioned upthread - a full course load is not a great way to learn new skills, exactly.

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Absolute BS.

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Originally Posted by frorider

We’ve covered the stats in other threads, so I just quickly summarized it as administrative bloat and amenities, but Summit’s post has the data. It’s not so much the high salaries, it’s the vast departmental bloat. One research paper found that back in the day the US News and World Report Rankings stimulated a lot of this bullshit Nuclear Arms Race of spending.

As with the US healthcare system, a shitshow of inefficiency in terms of quantity and quality per dollar spent. In a nominally capitalist system these inefficiencies accumulate when the $$ spigots flow freely enough. We all know people who were encouraged to take on hudge loans, almost like it was free money that would be ‘easy to pay back when you have a good job’.

I know enough about the alternative systems in other countries my family lives in to know the US system needs reform. I do not see how loan forgiveness forces any change on the actual system. But I support some rational form of forgiveness…sliding scale or whatever. Most people I know are looking for a reasonable plan to pay off at least a significant chunk. A pride and ethics thing.

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As universities increasingly pkace the burden of teaching onto adjuncts and ta’s who’s going to keep the lights on?

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Absolute BS.

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Well, I did both, though I ended up with some student loans because kids are effing expensive and I had two at the time and a stay-at-home spouse.

But it’s not an option available to all. Is it? Is it an option available to all?

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Absolute BS.

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Ah yes, the it’s trivial to work 40 hrs a week and do 40 hrs of school a week answer.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Absolute BS.

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In what way? Many degrees are challenging even on their own in modern programs (engineering at a good school), not to mention time challenges of group work, coops and internships. Many employers aren't inclined to respect a students schedule, nor universities consistently offering classes during non work hours, so it's unlikely a student will be able to have a full time job.

I think you guys are a bunch of slackers. Have you met a motivated student from outside the U.S. in the last 3 decades? Maybe your boss?

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Absolute BS.

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No, it's pretty simple.

Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.

A full course load is 30 credits per year for 4 years. That's 15 hours of class per week + homework for only 8-9 months a year with hefty breaks. There are fucktons of free time, otherwise frat parties, clubs and student athletes wouldn't exist. It's all about "The College Experience!"

Students can't find time to work? Don't feed me that bullshit unless you are a STEM or healthcare student where you have clinicals and labs sucking up time in excess that are multiples of the credit hour load. And I still knew plenty of nursing students who held down low skilled hospital jobs part time during their vastly-more-time-intensive-than-a-business-major curriculum. I did. That looks good to employers too.

Don't tell me knocking 18K/yr off your loans is meaningless. Can't find a job to fit the school schedule? Pull 18 credits per semester and go to school in the summer and finish school in 3 years.

Instead 59% percent of students take 5-6 years to finish a 4 year degree. Some did so because they weren't prepared for college, but mostly it is because because college is a fun lifestyle, so who cares if you change your major 5 times, take a relaxed credit load, and hang out in a great party place to hide from the real world! You can live that lifestyle of credit: student loans no questions asked!!!

(I keep using a business degree for examples only because it is the NUMBER ONE college degree in the US, isn't known for high academic demands, and very few people actually have jobs that specifically require it.)

I thought we were arguing for abolishing all degrees that weren't STEM degrees?

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Originally Posted by ghosthop

I thought we were arguing for abolishing all degrees that weren't STEM degrees?

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it’s only the people who got shitty 15hr a week stem degrees arguing that. Any decent degree expects more than 15hrs a week - readings/hw can easily match in class time.

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Originally Posted by ghosthop

No, it's pretty simple.

Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.

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I never went to a bar in college, ever. I went to more bars in middle and high school with my fake and a camera than I would in the next decade. I got a 75% scholarship, did work study, and started a club with 2 others (in name only) and was paid to brew beer as a zymurgy experiment for 3 years. I recycled beer bottles, took grad classes, graduated in 3 years and worked my ass off for cash, well over 40 hours a week over the span. I got a passport, traveled during breaks, hopped a shit ton of trains, never owned a car, kept it to a moto, blew that up and rebuilt it and got on; I also did my teaching internship where I had to be in HS math classes to teach at least 3 days a week and wrote a year long thesis while I worked. I graduated debt free from the most expensive private college in the nation at that time in 3 years. I still was a DJ, still volunteered, and was the captain of my "sport team".

I am very familiar with the insane costs, and am in tune with our current crop of students. Sure, it's a different playing field, but the metrics have shifted, not changed, and kids are lazy AF overall. I took a year off after college, hiked the AT, went back in the kitchen, paid off my debt, then got a tech job in Boston, bought a new TRD in 96, then sold it 4 years later to pay for books to go back to school. At that time, I never talked to my parents for 5 years and was nowhere to be seen. Then I showed back up at home to bury them.

FYI, the tuition for my college in 1993 was 23k per year. You do the work/math. I know I did. And in 1989, I said fuck this town and applied for private high schools. My twin was the HS president of the local PS HS. I got a 50% scholarship, did work study, and dived into the restaurant business working on the line till 3 am driving my waitress Mom home every night, and then commuting 2 hours each way to school. Paid that off before I even started college at 16. I said FTS and got out.

Oh yeah, buy BTC in 1989.

And for Buster, Reed was my 1st choice. I met with an alumnus in the World Trade Center. I got the acceptance a few months later. My parents didn't know why I was crying so hard as a punk coming in with an open letter- hell, they didn't even know I applied to college. Yes, I was in, 2, I couldn't pay for it with the money they gave me, and neither could they, and nor did I expect it. Choices. Make them.

My twin ended up going from HS president to and upstate SUNY. She fucked and married her first boyfriend. Got a masters in Geo and has spent the last 20 years as a stay at home mom. Completely miserable with an abusive husband in eastern WA. Going through a divorce in her late 40's, 3 kids flying the coop, and wondering how to actually start a life for herself. Starting teaching MS science to have something to do and get away from the husband.

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Originally Posted by ghosthop

No, it's pretty simple.

Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.

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Let's even take work ethic out of this - pure time logistics are the challenge as many schools offer major requirements at only a limited number of time slots that may conflict with work. Not to mention competitive programs have an expectation of additional event attendance because schools assume students are full time.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

it’s only the people who got shitty 15hr a week stem degrees arguing that. Any decent degree expects more than 15hrs a week - readings/hw can easily match in class time.

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A non-STEM degree with a 15 hour load has 15 hours of week in classroom and then you do readings and homework on top of that, but that's flexible and probably amounts to less than 40 hours in total for most majors.

Your STEM degree still signs you up for 15 credits but you are in the classroom 12 hours a week and then lab for another 8-15 hours a week (because 3-5 hours in a lab only counts for 1 credit hour) and THEN still have WAY more reading and homework than the non-STEM degree. A healthcare degree puts you in class 15 hours a week and then puts you in clinical for 24+ hours a week and on top of that you do pre-prep, post conference, and then STILL have way more reading and homework than a non-STEM degree.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I never went to a bar in college, ever. I went to more bars in middle and high school with my fake and a camera than I would in the next decade. I got a 75% scholarship, did work study, and started a club with 2 others (in name only) and was paid to brew beer as a zymurgy experiment for 3 years. I recycled beer bottles, took grad classes, graduated in 3 years and worked my ass off for cash, well over 40 hours a week over the span. I got a passport, traveled during breaks, hopped a shit ton of trains, never owned a car, kept it to a moto, blew that up and rebuilt it and got on; I also did my teaching internship where I had to be in HS math classes to teach at least 3 days a week and wrote a year long thesis while I worked. I graduated debt free from the most expensive private college in the nation at that time in 3 years. I still was a DJ, still volunteered, and was the captain of my "sport team".

I am very familiar with the insane costs, and am in tune with our current crop of students. Sure, it's a different playing field, but the metrics have shifted, not changed, and kids are lazy AF overall. I took a year off after college, hiked the AT, went back in the kitchen, paid off my debt, then got a tech job in Boston, bought a new TRD in 96, then sold it 4 years later to pay for books to go back to school. At that time, I never talked to my parents for 5 years and was nowhere to be seen. Then I showed back up at home to bury them.

FYI, the tuition for my college in 1993 was 23k per year. You do the work/math. I know I did. And in 1989, I said fuck this town and applied for private high schools. My twin was the HS president of the local PS HS. I got a 50% scholarship, did work study, and dived into the restaurant business working on the line till 3 am driving my waitress Mom home every night, and then commuting 2 hours each way to school. Paid that off before I even started college at 16. I said FTS and got out.

Oh yeah, buy BTC in 1989.

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You sound like an exceptional person, which is great, but also an exception.

How about:

-We cancel the interest on all student loans. It was not financially responsible to make an uncollateralized loan to someone with no income or assets. Any loans paid back in the last ten years will either receive a credit on taxes or refund from the private lender for interest as well. Maybe lenders will quit making crazy loans and maybe without that cash available moving forward, tuition inflation will cool.

-For private schools with either a large endowment or high profit margin or both, the amount over the equivalent tuition at a public school will be paid by the school back to the lender. Need to work on that threshold.

-Remove bankruptcy protection stipulations for student loans.

-Audit business profits and personal wealth generation due to PPP loans. Call those notes and apply it to the student loan crisis and future grants/scholarships proportionately.

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Originally Posted by Summit

A full course load is 30 credits per year for 4 years. That's 15 hours of class per week + homework for only 8-9 months a year with hefty breaks. There are fucktons of free time, otherwise frat parties, clubs and student athletes wouldn't exist. It's all about "The College Experience!"

Students can't find time to work? Don't feed me that bullshit unless you are a STEM or healthcare student where you have clinicals and labs sucking up time in excess that are multiples of the credit hour load. And I still knew plenty of nursing students who held down low skilled hospital jobs part time during their vastly-more-time-intensive-than-a-business-major curriculum. I did. That looks good to employers too.

Don't tell me knocking 18K/yr off your loans is meaningless. Can't find a job to fit the school schedule? Pull 18 credits per semester and go to school in the summer and finish school in 3 years.

Instead 59% percent of students take 5-6 years to finish a 4 year degree. Some did so because they weren't prepared for college, but mostly it is because because college is a fun lifestyle, so who cares if you change your major 5 times, take a relaxed credit load, and hang out in a great party place to hide from the real world! You can live that lifestyle of credit: student loans no questions asked!!!

(I keep using a business degree for examples only because it is the NUMBER ONE college degree in the US, isn't known for high academic demands, and very few people actually have jobs that specifically require it.)

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You are smart. Why are you ignoring the stats about how many students are working at least part time? The numbers float between ~50-80% depending on part versus full time school. Maybe that has a connection to your 5-6 year graduation concern?

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

You are smart. Why are you ignoring the stats about how many students are working at least part time? The numbers float between ~50-80% depending on part versus full time school. Maybe that has a connection to your 5-6 year graduation concern?

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My point is the vast majority of students could work a part time job while finishing in 4 years or less.

If you take 6 years to do 120 credits, that is 10 credits per semester while still having the summers off, or 6-7 credits / semester year round, a VERY part time student. You can work a full time job all 6 years no problem, maybe pick one that does tuition reimbursement.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Well, I did both, though I ended up with some student loans because kids are effing expensive and I had two at the time and a stay-at-home spouse.

But it’s not an option available to all. Is it? Is it an option available to all?

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Having kids and a stay at home mom is definitely a 1st world problem.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

You sound like an exceptional person, which is great, but also an exception.

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Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.

If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other responsibilities". Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter. I worked through my whole time at college and saw plenty of them working at the on-campus computer store.
This also implies that pure achievement is what gets you ahead in business and life - it's not. The kid who worked through school will likely be less successful as they will come out with a much weaker network compared to peers with more social exposure. Until hiring moves away from who you know being important, the importance of strong friend networks won't change. This isn't to say you need to enable a 4 year vacation, it's just putting some truth around why some of the "screwing around" is actually useful in the long term.

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Originally Posted by ghosthop

No, it's pretty simple.

Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.

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You can work PT at Safeway in a ski town and make $20/hr. and telecommute to college and pay $600/month with a couple roommates. And ski everyday and party for free as much as you want.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.

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I know many people who went through a 4 year nursing degree, incredibly time demanding, had a job, and were single moms. They were a very sizeable minority of the non-sub-22yo student population.

Life isn't easy for everyone. In fact it is FUCKING HARD.

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If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other

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It isn't a gate. It is very achievable for most. And, people do better when they hit the workforce with some actual work experience.

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Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter.

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Wait so then who are the ones who are complaining about student loans? The ones who worked or the screw arounds who didn't?

Screwing around is fine, just don't bitch about it and demand the public pay for it.

I guess if you have paid off your student loans you are doing okay. If you haven't paid off the student loans, you either just graduated or recently graduated in the past few years or you just might be struggling with the job prospects because you got a degree in 17th century French poetry or some other worthless degree. Not in favor of blanket forgiveness. I like the idea of just making it principal only. Maybe extend the payment terms. And means test it.

Also, what happens when the Dems are out of office, and the next Repub gets in and says, sorry, not sorry kids, no student loan debt forgiveness for you? I guess that's just life.

I'm sure that team Biden is polling hard the student loan debt crowd to see what it will take to get their vote. (And most probably won't even end up voting) Unlike the rich CEO's of America who are able to easily buy legislation in favor of corporate America, poor students can't buy a politicians vote and have to resort to extortion.

However, it does appear that there might be some trickle down effect of forgiving some student loan debt. So, maybe there's some benefits to the overall economy? IDK. I'm surrounded by a bunch of smart people that have gone back to school and gotten advanced degrees. They all have the benefit of employer tuition reimbursement. So, the employer sees the value in having a well educated workforce, and most larger corporations are willing to invest in their employees to some degree. Maybe American taxpayers like me, can foot some of that trickle down. We all know the rich won't be the ones footing the bill for these kids.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.

If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other responsibilities". Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter. I worked through my whole time at college and saw plenty of them working at the on-campus computer store.
This also implies that pure achievement is what gets you ahead in business and life - it's not. The kid who worked through school will likely be less successful as they will come out with a much weaker network compared to peers with more social exposure. Until hiring moves away from who you know being important, the importance of strong friend networks won't change. This isn't to say you need to enable a 4 year vacation, it's just putting some truth around why some of the "screwing around" is actually useful in the long term.

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BS. The place where you go and your GPA, especially now, are the only things that matter. Not your sorority.

And you ability to put down your Xbox, the latest phone, live frugally, and have a fucking vision. It really helps if you are socially adjusted.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Having kids and a stay at home mom is definitely a 1st world problem.

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I guess. My point is that even though I, like you, found myself capable of working a real life full time job while attending school full time and supporting a family and got out of it with pretty minimal student loans, it’s not an option available to all and I did it at 25 instead of at 18, and even if it was available to all, I can well recognize that it isn’t something that everybody is capable of accomplishing. Not meant as a humblebrag, like your comments are, just a reality I can recognize after interacting with different workforces over the years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toadman

However, it does appear that there might be some trickle down effect of forgiving some student loan debt. So, maybe there's some benefits to the overall economy? IDK.

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On the left we scream that trickle down is bullshit... until we need to justify the doling out of public monies to the petit bourgeoise who are higher earners? This is anti-equality, politically toxic and unethical bad one-time-fix policy that doesn't solve the underlying problems.

Do we need a spending infusion of "free" money when interest rates are skyrocketing to combat inflation? Fuck no!

I mean, I'll happily take 10K if the gov wants to pay down my student loans. But that doesn't mean I think it is good policy.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Not trying to go polyass, and I know most of you old geezers are too old to be directly affected.

I don’t have much student debt, but still have a small balance that would mostly get wiped out by $10k in forgiveness if I ended up qualifying. I’ve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, let’s do it.

From an economics perspective, seems like a broad brush way to circulate a little more cash. Is that what we need right now? Does this really keep families from going under? Open up new opportunities?

It’s obviously not really equitable. I’m not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didn’t get the benefit feels hollow, but valid all the same.

Anyways. I don’t know how to think about it, and without a 200 page thread of bickering on TGR how am I supposed to ever figure it out?

Attachment 414950

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I haven't read the myriad of responses, but this statement should tell you that it's BS
"I’ve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, let’s do it. "

And what??
"It’s obviously not really equitable. I’m not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didn’t get the benefit feels hollow,"

Whining? So people who are responsible and take accountability for their actions are whining because they don't want slackers to get off and don;t want to pay slackers bills?? Mind blown.

i forgive all loan debts and problems
now garner life skills to pay them bills
or be a dead beat and face consequences of such

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

I guess. My point is that even though I, like you, found myself capable of working a real life full time job while attending school full time and supporting a family and got out of it with pretty minimal student loans, it’s not an option available to all and I did it at 25 instead of at 18, and even if it was available to all, I can well recognize that it isn’t something that everybody is capable of accomplishing. Not meant as a humblebrag, like your comments are, just a reality I can recognize after interacting with different workforces over the years.

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Speak for yourself. You always assume. I didn't fuck for 2 kids and put a wife under me. Might be a good lesson for them, all three of the last sentences.