Wolves are rad.

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Originally Posted by thebirdhunter

Maybe someone from Atlanta knows more about wolf hunting than I do but my understanding is hunting wolves with dogs is not a good method.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...n-county-area/

Also where does someone from Atlanta go to see the all too common stereotypical wolf hunter?

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In Idaho dog hunters hunt lions and bears not wolves because hunting wolves w dogs is illegal in Idaho although some dogs are killed by wolves in encounters that are inevitable.

I met a dog hunter a few months ago and had several long talks with him regarding his dogs(Blue Ticks), and hunting lions and bears and came to the conclusion that they are not all bad guys, doing dastardly deeds. FYI not every treed animal ends up dead, there is an element of catch and release to the sport.

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Maybe you should come make me...ski off? Loser dies?


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maybe how we should've decided the ballot issue in CO...Ski off for reintroduction!

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

If I am the wolf, the last thing I want is some dumb ass human making decisions for me. Go shoot your own over populated areas up if you need to get your killing on you fucking fucktards.

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You're in CA , right? How is your ban on Lion hunting going? How many lions are killed by state paid "hunters" to even attempt at keeping numbers in check? CA (i grew up there) is the perfect example of how feelings can interfere with sound wildlife management and cause even more issues.

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Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

In Idaho dog hunters hunt lions and bears not wolves because hunting wolves w dogs is illegal in Idaho although some dogs are killed by wolves in encounters that are inevitable.

I met a dog hunter a few months ago and had several long talks with him regarding his dogs(Blue Ticks), and hunting lions and bears and came to the conclusion that they are not all bad guys, doing dastardly deeds. FYI not every treed animal ends up dead, there is an element of catch and release to the sport.

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So true! If you want to meet the most sound conservationists and wide viewpoint hunters, talk to a houndsman. IMO, they have more realistic data of the predator populations and overall makeup of any landscape. The real ones kill way less than they tree and study.

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Originally Posted by thebirdhunter

Maybe someone from Atlanta knows more about wolf hunting than I do but my understanding is hunting wolves with dogs is not a good method.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...n-county-area/

Also where does someone from Atlanta go to see the all too common stereotypical wolf hunter?

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Social media mostly. There seems to be a “type” among those willing to share their kill online.

Anyway, it seems my original post got the heated response I expected. And a lot of overreacting not to dissimilar to mine. I’m not anti hunter or anti management by any means. I’ve killed my own deer and many many ducks. They’re all tasty.

Hunting apex predators for sport makes zero sense to me, and sure the state may need the help of hunters to manage the population because they can’t do it on their own, fine. Doesn’t mean I have to understand the appeal for someone who does.

Anyway, back to wolf stoke, sorry for the hunting sidebar. Unless y’all want to talk ranchers vs wolves too now? :fmicon:

Thanks for the good info posted in here, I appreciate the level headed posts.

I’m a hunter and I personally won’t shoot an animal with paws. As a huge dog lover I couldn’t fathom shooting a coyote or wolf. To each their own. At the same time I completely trust that the biological study is correct and that fish and game have a decent understanding of what needs to happen. Those numbers don’t warrant hysteria.
The level of stupidity to think that wolves are rad and they howl at moon and you “hope to see them while camping” and they’re your spirit animal blah blah blah. Wolves are fucking savage and they will eat your entrails and give zero fucks. Go try to pet one and please take video.


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Originally Posted by CovertM

You're in CA , right? How is your ban on Lion hunting going? How many lions are killed by state paid "hunters" to even attempt at keeping numbers in check? CA (i grew up there) is the perfect example of how feelings can interfere with sound wildlife management and cause even more issues.

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I have never heard of hunting Mtn Lions to keep their numbers in check. Sadly, there are times when they are perceived to represent a public danger and then they may be shot. I would be more in favor of trying to catch and relocate them, but nobody listens to me.

This status and other statutes prohibit the California Department of Fish and Wildlife from recommending a hunting season for lions, and it is illegal to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or sell any mountain lion or part of a mountain lion. Mountain lions may be killed only 1) if a depredation permit is issued to take a specific lion ...

So I am not following you, but it is early and I need coffee.

Living in one of the ground zeros for wolves, wolf reintroduction and wolf hysteria I share Yeahman's view.

I don't want the eradicated and I don't want them to run wild breeding. CWD is starting to be a real problem here and wolves manage that problem well.

Our Elk population is too large and a large part of the problem lies with a lack of hunting access. Too much land that is no longer available to hunt without paying.

As for the big Cats, they worry me much more than stumbling across a Grizzly.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

As for the big Cats, they worry me much more than stumbling across a Grizzly.

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This is an interesting perspective. Cat attacks are extremely rare. They do taste good though.

I just don’t understand the thought process of “the population needs to be controlled, but I don’t think we should allow hunting.”

Inevitably what ends up happening is a bunch of money is spent for professional hunters to be paid to come in and thin the population. Why not let people pay the state to do it for them and then use that money for conservation?



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Originally Posted by liv2ski

I have never heard of hunting Mtn Lions to keep their numbers in check. Sadly, there are times when they are perceived to represent a public danger and then they may be shot. I would be more in favor of trying to catch and relocate them, but nobody listens to me.

This status and other statutes prohibit the California Department of Fish and Wildlife from recommending a hunting season for lions, and it is illegal to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or sell any mountain lion or part of a mountain lion. Mountain lions may be killed only 1) if a depredation permit is issued to take a specific lion ...

So I am not following you, but it is early and I need coffee.

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CA used to have a hunting season on lions. It was legislated out of existence because people liked the kittys. The lion population is booming in many parts of CA and have adverse effects on wildlife populations and domestics. The state is now forced to pay people to trap and kill lions who are “problems”.

My point is that if they had just maintained a logical lion season and managed the population through willing and paying hunters, there would less of an issue. But feelings...


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Oh and the idea of introducing disease to animals to control their population is just disgusting. First, the animals would suffer which is not right...and then, didn’t we learn anything from this pandemic?


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Originally Posted by CovertM

CA used to have a hunting season on lions. It was legislated out of existence because people liked the kittys. The lion population is booming in many parts of CA and have adverse effects on wildlife populations and domestics. The state is now forced to pay people to trap and kill lions who are “problems”.

My point is that if they had just maintained a logical lion season and managed the population through willing and paying hunters, there would less of an issue. But feelings...


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I have never heard of a population issue with Mtn Lions in CA??? Sadly, people are fucking everywhere, so they will encounter animals in the wild at some point and while the occasional person gets fucked up, the cat gets killed. I understand everyone has their own opinion on how to manage wildlife. For me, I thought man should be a keeper or warden of nature. Give the animals the room they need, but with so many people wanting to do their own damn thing and live in the wilderness, the animals lose.
I am out.

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Oh and the idea of introducing disease to animals to control their population is just disgusting. First, the animals would suffer which is not right...and then, didn’t we learn anything from this pandemic?


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What in the fuck are you talking about? No, never mind.

Chronic Wasting Disease has been a thing for quite a while.

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

Bmills stirrin the pot! you go get-em! Personally I found the lead article fascinating.

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Originally Posted by char_

Really? You don’t think wolf populations could naturally reach some sort of balance with the existing ecosystem (including the human built environment) unless we kill them?

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Some sort of happy Walt Disney predator/prey population stasis, with singing flowers? How naive.

Nature is not a steady state system. It's constant cycles of boom/bust, because the variables which define the behavior of 'the natural world' are constantly changing over time.
Like a laissez faire economy, one day you're up, the next you're down... It's not a point, it's a sine wave.

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FWIW - I think managed hunts are fine, I’m just not buying your black or white argument about how to manage them.

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Please suggest an alternative, and how to pay for it. TIA

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

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In the course of a year I see about as many wolves as grizzlies or cougars which is the spicy part of living near YNP. Lots more tracks than sightings, but nothing like a pack of gray wolves showing up to changes the dynamics of the elk migration.

The wolf discussion brings out lots of passion. I hope the local wolf packs are able to keep CWD down in this part of MT. A happy Disney stasis of predators and prey with singing flowers, cheerful birds twittering and fluffy puppies playing would be awesome. The reality is the local ecosystem has more and more human driven impacts with the local mega fauna hanging in the balance as the rate of change is accelerating.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

What in the fuck are you talking about? No, never mind.

Chronic Wasting Disease has been a thing for quite a while.

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

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Read the thread. One of the anti hunters claimed there are many other ways to control the wolf population using science instead of hunting...they floated the idea of introducing disease to the wolves.


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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Read the thread. One of the anti hunters claimed there are many other ways to control the wolf population using science instead of hunting...they floated the idea of introducing disease to the wolves.


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How about if I just take you at your word?

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Yeah it’s pretty wild. I’ve always wanted to go camping/backpacking there

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If you travel up here, drop by on the way through!

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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

If you travel up here, drop by on the way through!

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I’ll definitely take you up on that offer.

Been too long since I’ve made my way to that part of the world.

An interesting book on wolves is Of Wolves and Men by Lopez.
I volunteered at a wolf refuge years ago and we adopted a wolf dog puppy that came in. Awesome animal. Definitely not just a big dog and I wouldn't recommend them.

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Originally Posted by Powder Ho

An interesting book on wolves is Of Wolves and Men by Lopez.
I volunteered at a wolf refuge years ago and we adopted a wolf dog puppy that came in. Awesome animal. Definitely not just a big dog and I wouldn't recommend them.

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There's an article in a recent National Geo about how differently domestic dogs and wolves have become. Since dogs have been domesticated for over 10k years, they have evolved to serve, understand and even mimic us. Wolves have simply evolved to survive.

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Originally Posted by CovertM

You're in CA , right? How is your ban on Lion hunting going? How many lions are killed by state paid "hunters" to even attempt at keeping numbers in check? CA (i grew up there) is the perfect example of how feelings can interfere with sound wildlife management and cause even more issues.

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CA is bad from a hunting standpoint. I couldn’t believe it when I found out there were only doe permits for a small class of hunters here. It’s been known for decades that it is far better to have bucks and does hunted to control the herd health and population, but CA counties mostly don’t allow it. Instead we have herds of does and seldom see bucks.

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Originally Posted by Talisman

gray wolves

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I’ve been in the heart of cattle country for the last few years and even discussing the topic of wolves with a rancher ends up something like, “a seen wolf is a dead wolf”.

One of the better arguments I’ve heard is the genetics from the reintroduced wolves came from arctic gray wolves and not the native timber wolves. The claim is they are much larger and more efficient hunters that target cows more frequently than the smaller timber wolf.

Googlz didn’t turn up anything from a lazy search, does anyone here have any info on this?




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If you want to dive deep on the reintroduction, I recommend reading Wolfer by Carter Niemeyer. Interesting perspective as he’s the guy in charge of the reintroduction. Pretty dry read for the first third or so of the book but worth it to get into the history.

The original and reintroduced wolves are slightly different sub-species so the ranchers are telling some truth. Where I’ve found a lot of exaggeration is both have the same diet and characteristics but the reintroduced version average 5-10 lbs bigger. Ranchers will say they are much larger and more aggressive. Really, they eat the same stuff, hunt the same ways, but the Canadian Mackenzie Valley wolves average 3-8% more body mass. Not sure 3-8% larger really jives from with what I’ve heard from ranchers but they are technically a different sub-species.

The funny part is I’ve heard the Arctic gray wolf argument too but Arctic gray wolves are not even what was reintroduced. So the ranchers are sort of correct that what we have now are slightly bigger but not because they actually know the facts. I’ve also found it’s not worth trying to correct them.

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I’ve also found it’s not worth trying to correct them.

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Yep.

Anyone ever seen the documentary Wolves at our Door? It’s about the introduction of the Sawtooth Pack and was very interesting - gave a lot of background on what it took to get to that point in the mid 90s.

Think it’s on Discovery’s streaming service now.

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Anyone ever seen the documentary Wolves at our Door? It’s about the introduction of the Sawtooth Pack and was very interesting - gave a lot of background on what it took to get to that point in the mid 90s.

Think it’s on Discovery’s streaming service now.

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We watched that. I think it was a science assignment for our son. We signed up for the wolf sponsorship program. We sponsored Kamoots, one of the black wolves.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

I’ve also found it’s not worth trying to correct them.

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Thanks for the info. Yup, politics, religion and wolves are off the table round these parts.


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Big news in Southern Idaho a year or two ago that a wolf had killed a Great Pyrenees herd dog, which is almost unheard of, as the Pyrenees were bred to kill wolves and bear. Discussion of bigger, more badass wolves.

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Originally Posted by splat

Big news in Southern Idaho a year or two ago that a wolf had killed a Great Pyrenees herd dog, which is almost unheard of, as the Pyrenees were bred to kill wolves and bear. Discussion of bigger, more badass wolves.

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I've heard similar tales from fisherman. Back to emotional responses to biological questions.

What does Idaho give per cow killed by a predator?

"GMO murder hornets killed my cow and turned me into a newt while we was grazing on public land."

Then again...wolves will come through a valley and hock every moose in it...A cow-hocked moose can't move, and so she and her fetus die of starvation...
Nothing can stop a pack of wolves in winter. Big cats fleeing packs on their trail will kill deer and leave them for the wolves.
Wolves [and people] are the only thing that can kill mountain sheep and mountain goats on anything like a regular basis.

As apex predators with special group skills, it seems wolves need to be managed if they're competing with people. Too many is too many, esp if human recreation is a priority.
Moreover, managed populations [like economies] can experience less boom/bust [aka "suffering"]. In the same way that wolves benefit ungulate herds, humans can benefit wolf populations.

"4-way split!!" -- Chronicles of Riddick




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Originally Posted by simple

What does Idaho give per cow killed by a predator?

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Defenders of Wildlife paid 100% of value for a confirmed kill and 50% of value for probable kills. That fund stopped a few years ago. Now it's a convoluted process that is paid by a fed fund and matching private funding. If there isn't enough cash in the fed fund, it can be prorated across all kills. There's more to it and I don't totally understand the process. But, in a good year, 100% of value if it is a verified wolf kill.

Thanks! How is value calculated? I'm not a livestock farmer so I'm genuinely curious.

Rancher, not farmer ; )

Usually value will be calculated off recent auction prices. There's sales yards all over that have auctions frequently. It's a commodities based market driven by beef price, feed cost, breed, purpose (feeder, milk, breeder, etc). Pretty tough to fake value.

Edit-some are being raised under contract too so the value is predetermined. And I was just flipping a little shit. There are dairy farmers-but the product is milk. Typically, if you are raising cattle, you're a rancher. It all still confuses me too but I'm not involved daily. Mostly just talk to my grandpa anymore who is still very active in the business.

Cool I figured something like that. It is a grip of paperwork and we know certain types abhor government paperwork.

When I see feed lots, dairy farms, etc I don't think "ranch". We do have much more ranches than that around here but cattle are in many different types of situations.

I (kinda) remember going and sitting in on a few meetings with MT FWP for some community outreach on wolves around 99-00 when at MSU. Heard a lot of what's been said above i.e. different breed etc. Honestly it was mostly uninformed ranchers yelling at FWP and being very pissed off(cant blame them dealing with loss of income) esp the one near Dillion. I dont know about how compensation works in MT but last I heard you had to prove the kill was directly by wolf. A sheep rancher told me it's not unusual for say 5-10 out of 50 kills to be considered actual wolf kills since the sheep trample each other during the mayhem. There was a pretty honest look from the ranchers perspective on MT PBS quite some time ago. Had Sun Ranch in Madison valley and another large ranch in Paradise valley discussing issues.

I have no dog in the fight and think wolves are pretty cool. I also believe wildlife populations need to be managed despite the many variables and difficult task.

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Carter Niemeyer from that book I referenced was the FWP guy doing kill forensics in MT during that time frame and talks a lot about it in depth. Pretty interesting. He said it was a lot of tough situations because for every actual kill, there was a rancher trying to pass off animals for reimbursement that may have been a neighbors dog or some type of illness that scavengers came in to eat after death.

I can see both sides and don't have a good answer. I do think that ranchers get highly subsidized federal ground to run livestock on and can buy insurance but often don't. How many businesses does the government highly subsidize raw materials and then if the business owner doesn't buy insurance against a known risk, gives them money for losses too? Seems like if you're using public ground at a very below market cost, there might be some risks to go with that. If you're grazing on private ground, might want to build better fences.

Sticking with the wolves are rad theme, which I think they are, here's one I saw sunning himself a couple years ago out on a bow hunt.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...1&d=1505421053

I saw a pup playing in a field up the drainage the year prior. I blew a stalk on a nice bull about an hour before seeing this guy. I was pretty down in the dumps and seeing him really brought my spirits up. Plenty of elk and plenty of wolves in this area. Also some open range grazing going on near here too.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Carter Niemeyer from that book I referenced was the FWP guy doing kill forensics in MT during that time frame and talks a lot about it in depth. Pretty interesting. He said it was a lot of tough situations because for every actual kill, there was a rancher trying to pass off animals for reimbursement that may have been a neighbors dog or some type of illness that scavengers came in to eat after death.

I can see both sides and don't have a good answer. I do think that ranchers get highly subsidized federal ground to run livestock on and can buy insurance but often don't. How many businesses does the government highly subsidize raw materials and then if the business owner doesn't buy insurance against a known risk, gives them money for losses too? Seems like if you're using public ground at a very below market cost, there might be some risks to go with that. If you're grazing on private ground, might want to build better fences.

Sticking with the wolves are rad theme, which I think they are, here's one I saw sunning himself a couple years ago out on a bow hunt.


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Wait until you read about the oil industry....



Point taken. In Colorado, it'll be interesting, I think about here in the Elk Mountains, where we have a giant swath of Wilderness that is HEAVILY recreated in. Up north of here in the flat tops there may be some viable range, I'm not sure how the big game is doing up that way though.

Ok, educate me about this Idaho bill that was fast tracked to the Governor that would permit up to a 90% reduction in population- 1,500 to 150 per the article.

Tell me about the poor cattle. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself with that one). Seriously, some mag in ID tell me how this is a good approach. Believe it or not I’m open to being shown viewpoints that may not be presented in the article.

https://apnews.com/article/bills-ida...282e2b097040a9

Can’t recall if you’re in ID, Highangle, but I assume your explanation above is a partial reason?