Silver Mt, ID 1/7/2020 Two Fatalities

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Originally Posted by rip

Hard to tell but at about 24 sec it looks like you can see some bombholes from hand charges. Spooky. One hell of a deposition pile, looks like a cat was in pushing on it.

Condolences to all involved.

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I found the cat track through the debris to an extremely odd thing to see.

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Originally Posted by glademaster

All of you that are aiding and abetting negligence here are despicable. An avalanche of this size, occurring on open terrain of that nature isn't "the raw power of mother nature" it's inexcusable. Full Stop. The snow safety director and patrol director there need to lose their jobs, and should never be able to work in those fields again, anywhere. They fucked up by opening that terrain to the public. :nonono2:

If you disagree, you're wrong, AND you're welcome to go fuck yourself.

But sure, go ahead and be corporate apologists, I would expect nothing less from the legions of herpetic sphincters around here.

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You need help

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Originally Posted by glademaster

All of you that are aiding and abetting negligence here are despicable. An avalanche of this size, occurring on open terrain of that nature isn't "the raw power of mother nature" it's inexcusable. Full Stop. The snow safety director and patrol director there need to lose their jobs, and should never be able to work in those fields again, anywhere. They fucked up by opening that terrain to the public. :nonono2:

If you disagree, you're wrong, AND you're welcome to go fuck yourself.

But sure, go ahead and be corporate apologists, I would expect nothing less from the legions of herpetic sphincters around here.

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Yeah because your level of expertise means so fucking much.

Pretty sure the Patrol Dir. and the SS Dir. are one and the same.

I was offered that job in 2013/14 and turned it down because I did not see myself living in Kellogg.

As for the rest of your bullshit..............:the_finge

glademaster, simmer down, as in stop freebasing meth for a few days maybe?

you can freebase that stuff? just asking for a friend...

Maybe probes not long enough to reach bottom of debris. Scraped off snow with groomer to probe too bottom.

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Originally Posted by Hey Diddle Diddle

Maybe probes not long enough to reach bottom of debris. Scraped off snow with groomer to probe too bottom.

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Yup. Current ICAR probing recommendation:
To minimize search times, maximize survival chances and reduce risk to
rescuers, it is recommended to apply the following procedure:
1) With limited resources, in cases with obvious terrain traps and
around anchored surface clues, spot probe the most likely burial
areas.
2) Coarse probe the likely burial areas:
a. On first passage limit the probing depth to 1,5m.
b. On second passage, probe with lateral offset and maximum
probing depth.
3) Fine probe the entire avalanche debris including the immediately
adjacent areas to maximum probing depth.
4) Remove the fine-probed debris to within 1m of the probed depth.
Repeat steps 2, 3 and 4.

Agree on initial probe depth to depth of likely survival. POD (probability of detection) is high but not 100%.

Scraping off snow with a groomer is not recommended ICAR procedure. I've never heard of such a practice.

On the off chance someone had a large or connected airspace, it would likely be crushed. A shallower missed body could also be dismembered.

In the picture it doesn't look like they ran the whole field with the cat, just across one section.

The woman who died was a pediatric neurosurgeon.

RIP. https://komonews.com/news/local/ohsu...daho-avalanche



Very sad.

Glademaster you should live in a bubble


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Preliminary report on CAIC says buried surface hoar was the weak layer on which the slab failed.

https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/a...=731&accfm=rep

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Originally Posted by Summit

Agree on initial probe depth to depth of likely survival. POD (probability of detection) is high but not 100%.

Scraping off snow with a groomer is not recommended ICAR procedure. I've never heard of such a practice.

On the off chance someone had a large or connected airspace, it would likely be crushed. A shallower missed body could also be dismembered.

In the picture it doesn't look like they ran the whole field with the cat, just across one section.

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I mean removing snow and re-probing, not sure about the cat. I heard she was buried 20 feet deep and located after the Recco hit from the helicopter? That's a lot of digging....

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Originally Posted by sfotex

I mean removing snow and re-probing, not sure about the cat. I heard she was buried 20 feet deep and located after the Recco hit from the helicopter? That's a lot of digging....

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Wow! 20ft? Jeez

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Originally Posted by Summit

Scraping off snow with a groomer is not recommended ICAR procedure. I've never heard of such a practice.

On the off chance someone had a large or connected airspace, it would likely be crushed. A shallower missed body could also be dismembered.

In the picture it doesn't look like they ran the whole field with the cat, just across one section.

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Just curious, do you have another method in mind for moving that snow? Nothing is ideal, obviously, but I can't think of anything that would be less likely to crush an air pocket while moving that snow. Spreading the load on the tracks, minimum surface pressure and, of course, speed kind of limits the options, but I'm not sure what you'd rather have on hand.

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Originally Posted by jono

Just curious, do you have another method in mind for moving that snow? Nothing is ideal, obviously, but I can't think of anything that would be less likely to crush an air pocket while moving that snow. Spreading the load on the tracks, minimum surface pressure and, of course, speed kind of limits the options, but I'm not sure what you'd rather have on hand.

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I misunderstood and thought the other poster was suggesting using this across an entire debris field with an unlocated victim, rather than for a localized 6m burial. What was actually done in this accident I do not know.

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Originally Posted by glademaster

All of you that are aiding and abetting negligence here are despicable. An avalanche of this size, occurring on open terrain of that nature isn't "the raw power of mother nature" it's inexcusable. Full Stop. The snow safety director and patrol director there need to lose their jobs, and should never be able to work in those fields again, anywhere. They fucked up by opening that terrain to the public. :nonono2:

If you disagree, you're wrong, AND you're welcome to go fuck yourself.

But sure, go ahead and be corporate apologists, I would expect nothing less from the legions of herpetic sphincters around here.

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Go fuck yourself.

Bring some stoke or GTFO

IMHO

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

The woman who died was a pediatric neurosurgeon.

RIP. https://komonews.com/news/local/ohsu...daho-avalanche



Very sad.

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Fack. Karma fail.
How many lives would she have saved had she lived. Ugh

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Fack. Karma fail.
How many lives would she have saved had she lived. Ugh

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It always bugs the shit out of me when people value human life by their profession.

It is a dead young woman. It is a fatality.

You were a firefighter, you were pregnant, you were on patrol, you just got your shit together, you are in the army, you were mother teresa, ghandi.

You died. You are a human. We all are.

The circumstances for all involved are horrendous and any loss of life is tragic.

Vibes to the friends and loved ones that did not survive. Grateful that the warrior who was wielding these battle axes is still with us.
Attachment 310299

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Originally Posted by pipedream

One would think that a major slab like this would be sussed-out with a big enough charge. But the question is the placement and size of that charge. There are important lessons to be learned here on the hazard reduction side, too.

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Not always. And not every resort runs a bomb trolley over sketch slopes. There could be a convex under the snow that doesn't show with a bombhole right next to it that doesn't break until a skier's weight is on it in just the right place. Just like 200 skiers could have skied the slope and tracked the fuck out of it before it decided to break. There aren't any guarantees that bombing will do it and even if patrol knows where they should bomb based on the windload, the wind could have shifted during the night to load another aspect.

I've had patrol buddies get buried after we bombed the shit out of a slope and then went in to ski cut it as a double precaution. I was once sent to ski cut a big bowl that had about seven feet of fresh and had been bombed all the way across the top as far down as a hand charge could be thrown. I cut it back and forth, then skied out and stopped at the bottom to look back up, only to hear what sounded like a stick of dynamite, watched it crack across the top, and the snow under my skis dropped a foot as it all settled in one big whumph! With no way out and standing in a terrain trap, I was pretty certain they would find me in the spring 50 feet deep as I almost shit myself. These things happen.

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Originally Posted by fastfroggy

how prevalent are recco detectors? do all resorts, even smaller ones, own one or more?

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I think most people consider Recco a body retrieval tool due to it's bulkiness over transceivers . But I think I heard of someone in Europe being found alive with one, probably because first on scene in the Alps is often a heli that can do Recco recon.

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Originally Posted by glademaster

All of you that are aiding and abetting negligence here are despicable. An avalanche of this size, occurring on open terrain of that nature isn't "the raw power of mother nature" it's inexcusable. Full Stop. The snow safety director and patrol director there need to lose their jobs, and should never be able to work in those fields again, anywhere. They fucked up by opening that terrain to the public. :nonono2:

If you disagree, you're wrong, AND you're welcome to go fuck yourself.

But sure, go ahead and be corporate apologists, I would expect nothing less from the legions of herpetic sphincters around here.

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:the_finge
It might look like I'm giving you the finger but that's me fucking myself, because I disagree. Not just now but with pretty much everything you've ever written here. You're a cretin.
That doesn't ski

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Originally Posted by splat

I think most people consider Recco a body retrieval tool due to it's bulkiness over transceivers . But I think I heard of someone in Europe being found alive with one, probably because the first on the scene is often a heli that can do Recco recon in the Alps.

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In the US there's a helicopter Recco unit in Salt Lake and one out of Whitefish (2 Bear Air - they used their unit in this rescue). If there's a reported burial in the Wasatch without companion rescue the first thing is try to get a dog and handler in the air as fast as possible.

RECCO is continuing its development of rescue reflectors and have released a line of reflectors that can be purchased separately and attached to backpacks, stuck onto helmets, etc. This is to support their RECCO helicopter operated device to allow rescuers in quickly searching large areas for reflectors in a variety of terrain. With the increased incorporation of reflectors by many equipment and clothing manufacturers and the increased RECCO SAR coverage, RECCO has promise for being an efficient search tool not only in avalanche situations anymore. Austria announced that they have 4 RECCO SAR detectors and are able to cover the whole country with this search tool.

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Originally Posted by sfotex

In the US there's a helicopter Recco unit in Salt Lake and one out of Whitefish (2 Bear Air - they used their unit in this rescue). If there's a reported burial in the Wasatch without companion rescue the first thing is try to get a dog and handler in the air as fast as possible.

RECCO is continuing its development of rescue reflectors and have released a line of reflectors that can be purchased separately and attached to backpacks, stuck onto helmets, etc. This is to support their RECCO helicopter operated device to allow rescuers in quickly searching large areas for reflectors in a variety of terrain. With the increased incorporation of reflectors by many equipment and clothing manufacturers and the increased RECCO SAR coverage, RECCO has promise for being an efficient search tool not only in avalanche situations anymore. Austria announced that they have 4 RECCO SAR detectors and are able to cover the whole country with this search tool.

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thanks for the intel. def see a lot more reflectors around. now even on scarpa bc boots....

There are definitely more around...would be nice if companies made them easily removable, however. Makes it difficult to purchase gear as a potential rscuer if the recco is not removable.

Wow, just put two and two together with the fairer member of the Spud household and it turns out she knew the last victim and I met her all of once. They hadn't talked since probably 2012, but still pretty damn jarring just the same.

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Originally Posted by NWFlow

There are definitely more around...would be nice if companies made them easily removable, however. Makes it difficult to purchase gear as a potential rscuer if the recco is not removable.

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Wrap yourself in foil!

Or you can use those armbands that come with the recco unit as shields. They help. Some.

Or scalpel it

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Originally Posted by sfotex

In the US there's a helicopter Recco unit in Salt Lake and one out of Whitefish (2 Bear Air - they used their unit in this rescue). If there's a reported burial in the Wasatch without companion rescue the first thing is try to get a dog and handler in the air as fast as possible.

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Old school tip was to always pack a couple dog bones in your gear.

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Originally Posted by El Kanone

Glademaster you should live in a bubble

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Oh, he does.

Just read this whole thread - super heavy stuff. Thoughts & good vibes to the victims' families, the first responders, and all others affected by this. Sobering to read - I'll be carrying my beacon on deep days inbounds now. What an awful tragedy.

Glademaster - go fuck yourself, please? Even if there is an opportunity for professional growth, reflection, and learning from this incident, this isn't the correct forum for pointing fingers, and none of us are privy to the details which would actually inform a meaningful conversation around avalanche mitigation and snow safety that day at Silver.

Hold your loved ones close.

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Originally Posted by NWFlow

There are definitely more around...would be nice if companies made them easily removable, however. Makes it difficult to purchase gear as a potential rscuer if the recco is not removable.

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My jacket and pants both have reflectors, I have no idea where they are and I've looked.
I wonder how many people have reflectors in their gear and don't know it, especially in bounds skiers. Probably makes it difficult to clear out all the Recco wearing volunteers when the detector shows up.
How deep can the dogs find a victim--20 feet obviously too deep?

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Originally Posted by tgapp

Because there is an opportunity for professional growth, reflection, and learning from this incident, this isn't the correct forum for pointing fingers

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FIFY. Glademaster was wrong, full stop. The exact thing he (and everyone else) hopes will come from this in the future (learning/prevention) has been proven to be best achieved when blame is kept out of the conversation. The fact that he couldn't check his emotions well enough to avoid that counterproductive post may be indicative of his own psychological state; someone should probably do a welfare check in North Bend.

And we should probably have a sticky in here about finger pointing, it comes up so often.

Gapeasser seems to have taken the hint.

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Originally Posted by old goat

My jacket and pants both have reflectors, I have no idea where they are and I've looked.
I wonder how many people have reflectors in their gear and don't know it, especially in bounds skiers. Probably makes it difficult to clear out all the Recco wearing volunteers when the detector shows up.
How deep can the dogs find a victim--20 feet obviously too deep?

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dogs work on the scent cone committed from targets
So densities interference wind time of burial and other factors are great variables in the ability for them to be able to aquire the scent
I pass no judgement offer only vibes for those involved
And attempt to ski with a protect yourself and crew at all times mentality
Which often isn't easy

'Game changer:' New technology assists avalanche search and rescue efforts

“If we start getting more and more people with these RECCO chips, it cuts down significantly on our search times,” said Hutchings.

That’s how a woman’s body was found buried in an avalanche in Idaho last week.

A helicopter using RECCO technology picked up on the RECCO chip she was wearing.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46704664...rescue-efforts


There's 3 Heli Recco's in the US: Salt Lake, Whitefish, and Washington

How long before insurers require mountains with avalanche mitigation programs to have a RECCO device so they don't have to call in a helo on day 2? My guess is not until there are multiple live finds.

Dogs and Recco don't come anywhere near what the beep will do. Strapping on is what savers you.

Story in this morning's Spokesman Review. Initial investigation states that the avalanche was started by a skier (not a surprise) and that it was size 3, not 4 as reported earlier. Also, patrol had done mitigation work in line with their normal protocol and, perhaps, beyond but didn't initiate the slide.

My heart goes out to the entire Silver community, many of whom I know, and especially to the patrol who were there and the self-guilt I'm sure they feel. As for the grenade tossers (Glademeister...), snow science is incredibly complicated and we all learn more as these events occur. For these three lost, there have been innumerable lives saved by the work of patrol and the ongoing collection of data and science that will make us all safer as we continue to push limits in our pursuits. I have skied this very area many times myself since my first trip to Jackass Ski Bowl in 1969. I've never seen it go like it did at any time we skied there. It's a freak event.

Here is the S-R article: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...skiers-trigge/

I will agree with everything you wrote other than "Freak Event".

Ski area avalanche mitigation is pretty fucking good in the US but everyone who skis terrain that is capable of producing an avalanche should understand that there will always be some risk and they by skiing such terrain they are accepting some level of that risk.

Vibes to all affected.

^^ Maybe freak event isn't the right term but it was definitely an unusual event. My point is that in the 50+ years that I've frequented Silver, albeit not that frequently over the past several years, I've never seen that slope go unless it had been slid by patrol. With that, you're right in that anyone who skis slopes of that magnitude needs to understand that there's always that one time....

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

I will agree with everything you wrote other than "Freak Event".

Ski area avalanche mitigation is pretty fucking good in the US but everyone who skis terrain that is capable of producing an avalanche should understand that there will always be some risk and they by skiing such terrain they are accepting some level of that risk.

Vibes to all affected.

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Like my friend the patrol director says”it’s a mountain environment, we can’t eliminate all risk”.