Is Shimano cycling division permafucked?

Rapid rise was fine once you were used to it, until you wanted to rent a bike, ride a road bike etc. i never saw any shops running it on a demo bike, you would pretty much guarantee the rider wouldn’t have fun and thus wouldn’t buy the bike.

i would tell you to drive on the left if there was any research saying it was better, but no one has come up with even any theoretical advantages for it, let alone real world data saying it is better. Also, switching from driving on the left to driving on the right is much easier than switch between rapid rise and normal shifters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nick_B10

Rapid rise was fine once you were used to it, until you wanted to rent a bike, ride a road bike etc. i never saw any shops running it on a demo bike, you would pretty much guarantee the rider wouldn’t have fun and thus wouldn’t buy the bike..

---

I agree, so 2004 interbike was the second coming of rapidrise which is where I rode RR on a demo bike and it was confusing

this would be the same demo bike that other bikestore staff, bikestore owners and bike manufactering product mangers would be riding amongst all the other bike brands, some of those other demo bikes with the new and very competent SRAM X9, in other words all the people making buying decisions for the industry would be riding that demo bike with RR

is it really any wonder why backwards shifting never really took off the second time either ?

Minor rant. Bleeding my XT brakes. WTF is with a 7mm for the nipple? Or a fucking 2.5 MM for the bleed cap?

Yeah I have them but FFS wouldn't a 3 MM allen and a 6MM wrench work just fine?

OTOH I built my own bleed kit with a couple of syringes from the Horse store along with 2' of clear hose and a piece of wood for the bleedblock.:the_finge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not bunion

Minor rant. Bleeding my XT brakes. WTF is with a 7mm for the nipple? Or a fucking 2.5 MM for the bleed cap?

Yeah I have them but FFS wouldn't a 3 MM allen and a 6MM wrench work just fine?

OTOH I built my own bleed kit with a couple of syringes from the Horse store along with 2' of clear hose and a piece of wood for the bleedblock.:the_finge

---

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...44/247/297.png


Hayes used 6mm, they stripped a little too easily, IMO.
2.5 has kinda become industry standard, unless its torx.

My Maguras had a plastic #1 torx tightened to .5 N. Stripped immediately. I bought a pack of five for replacements.

I thought someone wrote right before my post that XD was free to license, but that does sound wrong.

A Shimano 12 speed shifter and derailleur is not compatible with xd Driver and cassette? Are they spaced so differently?

I like my Shimano brakes. They stop me. Get the metal pads with no fins and XT rotors. They could be more consistent and definitely hold a bleed better, but I don't have to do it more than once a year or pad change and it's super easy. Also, more they're environmentally friendly :p

Full SLX 12 speed drive train and brakes (with rt86 rotors) would be an amazing value/performance setup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

I thought someone wrote right before my post that XD was free to license, but that does sound wrong.

---

Pretty sure it's not wrong. I belive XD is still free to license. That's why XD hubs are easy to come by from pretty much every company.

https://www.xddriverbody.com/apply.php

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

That's why XD hubs are easy to come by from pretty much every company.

---

So then why are the XD cassettes all so fucking expensive? You would think someone would make one on the less expensive side - you know, competition. But cheapest msrp I could find was GX at $130, eventually found one for around $100. Someone mentioned Sunrace but I've never seen an XD cassette of theirs for less than that. Meanwhile I can still get non XD shimano cassettes for $30, 50, 70 pretty much everywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evdog

So then why are the XD cassettes all so fucking expensive? You would think someone would make one on the less expensive side - you know, competition. But cheapest msrp I could find was GX at $130, eventually found one for around $100. Someone mentioned Sunrace but I've never seen an XD cassette of theirs for less than that. Meanwhile I can still get non XD shimano cassettes for $30, 50, 70 pretty much everywhere.

---

Cassettes for Shimano drivers have been essentially the same for about 40 years. Making the same thing for 4 decades usually generates some costs savings.

XD is the latest and greatest. If an extra $30 for the latest, greatest tech to put on your $5k bike is a big problem, you might want to consider a different sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evdog

So then why are the XD cassettes all so fucking expensive? You would think someone would make one on the less expensive side - you know, competition. But cheapest msrp I could find was GX at $130, eventually found one for around $100. Someone mentioned Sunrace but I've never seen an XD cassette of theirs for less than that. Meanwhile I can still get non XD shimano cassettes for $30, 50, 70 pretty much everywhere.

---

The xd sunrace 11 speed 10-46 which was out of stock everywhere for awhile is now available. ~$100 - check universal cycles if interested

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

Cassettes for Shimano drivers have been essentially the same for about 40 years. Making the same thing for 4 decades usually generates some costs savings.

XD is the latest and greatest. If an extra $30 for the latest, greatest tech to put on your $5k bike is a big problem, you might want to consider a different sport.

---

micro spline bro.

Quote:

---

It will be compatible with larger diameter thru-axles, if the industry moves that way down the road.

---

:nonono2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klauss

micro spline bro.

---

Microspline XT is $160 though.

Microspline SLX is $100, but you don't get the full dinner plate cog. It's more of a bread plate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

XD is the latest and greatest. If an extra $30 for the latest, greatest tech to put on your $5k bike is a big problem, you might want to consider a different sport.

---

Yeah. While more expensive than SLX, I wouldn't exactly describe a $100-130 GX cassette as "fucking expensive."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

Microspline XT is $160 though.

Microspline SLX is $100, but you don't get the full dinner plate cog. It's more of a bread plate.

---

OH THE HUMANITEEZ!

if they can't afford dinner let them eat bread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXX-er

if they can't afford dinner let them eat bread

---

It's a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evdog

So then why are the XD cassettes all so fucking expensive?

---

I think sram's 'machined from one piece' cassettes cost more to manufacture, so they're simply passing the cost through to the consumer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ted Striker

I think sram's 'machined from one piece' cassettes cost more to manufacture, so they're simply passing the cost through to the consumer.

---

From Page 1:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

Shimano does a really good job of fucking over smaller retailers. They allow big online retailers to sell their stuff at ridiculous prices - sometimes below the wholesale prices that they offer to small shops. An XT group's msrp is actually about the same as GX. It's only cheaper because shimano doesn't enforce any pricing controls.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by toast2266

It's a problem.

---

Ok then let them eat cake

oh, and the thing with Shimano brakes is that they used to be better than they are now. My oldest pair hold a bleed pretty much indefinitely. Even with a dent on one of the reservoirs.

So, no one knows anything about xd vs micro drive cassette indexing?

Bunion, assuming you have the generations of Shimano brakes with the little 1 finger levers, DO NOT OPEN THE LOWER NIPPLE
After that it's pretty straight forward. And a 2.5mm Allen should be part of a metric set 99.999999% of the time. It's not a bolt you need to reef on.

@ Dan, yeah, that too.

Newer SRAM cassettes have lasted much longer than older SRAM and any Shimano stuff for me. Easily offsets the additional cost IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

So, no one knows anything about xd vs micro drive cassette indexing?

---

If you are asking if new 12 speed XT/XTR shifter/derailleur is compatible with SRAM cassettes, then all anecdotal evidence suggests that YES they are. Just pick a cassette, match the chain...and be a dick about it:wink:

I for one am looking forward to trying XT/XTR on the next build once I figure out which frame to do. While I've had a few XO1 Eagles that have worked well enough, none have been perfect, same goes for anybody in our group. Although chock one up for SRAM and their warranty as I've had many cassettes replaced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by robnow

I for one am looking forward to trying XT/XTR on the next build

---

x2. Shimano has behind the ball for a while, but there's plenty of room for improvement over sram's stuff. Hoping the new xt is actually good.

I've been running X01 Eagle for a few years. It shifts well enough when I have the shop set it up... a bit clunky when I do it. The cassette for the most part seems more durable than the XT M8000 I ran previously, although I did manage to break off 1 tooth from the 50, but SRAM warrantied it.

I am occasionally guilty of horrendous shifts under load uphill, so I am curious to try XTR. But I'm not $1,000 curious (cost of XTR cassette, RD, chain, shifter, microspline freehub, and new chainring). I'd consider it on a complete build, but I build frame up, so no point in that.

I'm alternating between amazed and [facepalm] that Shimano managed to be more resistant to change than a bunch of Germans, then when they finally did change, made it super inaccessible.

New 4 piston XT brakes got reviewed on Pink Bike. End result, meh, SRAM is better and cheaper. What is Shimano doing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by simple

New 4 piston XT brakes got reviewed on Pink Bike. End result, meh, SRAM is better and cheaper. What is Shimano doing?

---

But...but... the new version has more rounded edges!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by simple

New 4 piston XT brakes got reviewed on Pink Bike. End result, meh, SRAM is better and cheaper. What is Shimano doing?

---

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...ton-brake.html

"The G2 still has a gentler, far more controllable initial bite compared to the XT, but a heavier rider might feel that as less initial power. I've racked up a bunch of 3,000-foot descents on both models and the G2's bite point has been 100-percent consistent during all of them, although I can't say the same about the power - it trails off a touch when you're really leaning on them for extended periods of time. Conversely, the new XTs never blinked in the power department, but the bite point would slowly work its way in during long descents."

Consistent bite point but loses power does not equal "better and cheaper" in my view.

I bought two bikes this year, both came with SRAM Guide brakes. I removed both sets and sold them. One bike got Zee, the other got SLX. I am not a fan of SRAM brakes at all.

I agree on the meh part, but the SRAMs aren't better, and SLX is basically the same price.

Brake fade is brake fade.

That's it! I'm buying products from whoever brings back white fork legs and white brakes. Black or grey is boring.

For what its worth, i've been running code r's on my trail bike for the past 2 years. Need to over fill them or change pads before they are done cos im cheap and didnt go rsc, but the bleed is simple, and i just change pads at home anyway. They have been rock fucking solid. 10/10 would buy again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by simple

That's it! I'm buying products from whoever brings back white fork legs and white brakes. Black or grey is boring.

---

Manitou and Hayes have you covered:

https://www.spoke-store.com/photos/o...qr-26-1-5t.jpg

https://images.qbp.com/imageservice/...odl/BR4216.jpg

220/221.

I am a light weight at about 185 with a pack and like my XTs, easy to service and mineral oil is pretty mild stuff compared to the DOTs. Regular riding buddy is pushing 250 fully loaded he runs Codes and although they get noisy as hell on long descents they don't fade on him much and people tend to give him ROW:fm:.

Looks like the new XT and XTR 1x12 stuff has finally started making its way to retailers. I'm curious to see long-term reviews in the coming months. On another note XT 1x11 shit (and lots of Shimano components, including the new 1x12 shit) is an additional 10% off today only on competitive cyclist... which makes most of the older XT, SLX parts ~40% off... prob the cheapest I've seen it from a major retailer.

Speaking of unobtanium why are the 170mm xtr 12 cranks so umpossible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Speaking of unobtanium why are the 170mm xtr 12 cranks so umpossible

---

They had that fire in their finishing plant (aka paint and polish of high end parts) in Japan.
The XTR cranks were the most effected sku’s in their line. The got caught up with a mass production of 175s and are still playing catch up with 170s and 165s.
The majority of 170s and 165s that have been produced went to OEM builders.
That’s why retailers only seem to have 175s in stock.

Ahhh gotcha. Anyway back to the brand wars: ran code and sram stuff on a demo bike, liked the power of the codes but not the lever feel, also torx?!?!! Really?! F that shit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Speaking of unobtanium why are the 170mm xtr 12 cranks so umpossible

---

I got a set from Italy a few weeks ago.

Still running 675. Non-finned sintered pads and a good bleed once a year/pad change. XT rotors. I suppose the lever feel is really variable. Especially having the sintered pads.
However, they brake harder the hotter they get (to a point, obviously, but that point is at least 1,000 techy feet on a hot day with a heavy rider and then I stop to take a breath and it's fine again), they are super easy and environmentally (and paint) friendly to bleed. Pads could be easier to change.

Grabbing in the shop tells me Srams might "feel" better, so ok sure.

I don't THINK I'm doubling down on a lemon like a Trump supporter, but I'd be willing to be proved wrong.

So yeah, Sram XD cassette and XT or SLX everything else.