In-bounds slide at Taos? Kachina Peak

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Originally Posted by powdork

when skiing inbounds the goal is always to go out of bounds so pack and beacon are almost always with me and on.

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Used to be like that here, till they made the side country inbounds. Sucks. But I'm wearing a beacon inbound from now on. Our local hill has had a few incidents over the years including a death inbounds from a slide.

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Originally Posted by powdork

when skiing inbounds the goal is always to go out of bounds so pack and beacon are almost always with me and on.

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That’s a good policy, but Taos has closed boundaries.

Common theme developing here is that what used to be OB or side country is being converted to in bounds and lift served, Kachina is a prime example. If it's steep enough, it can break loose. So, makes sense to wear the beacon in those areas regardless of whether it's called in bounds or not. Any bets on when (not if) Highlands Bowl will be lift served??

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

This is kind of like saying you're actually safer driving 130 mph on a wide open highway than you are going 10 mph in a mall parking lot. It's probably true but in a very loaded way.. way more alert and aware and far fewer other people doing stupid things around you..

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Take it however you want, the number of deaths from in bounds avalanches VS tree strikes etc on groomed trails was my point.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Common theme developing here is that what used to be OB or side country is being converted to in bounds and lift served, Kachina is a prime example. If it's steep enough, it can break loose. So, makes sense to wear the beacon in those areas regardless of whether it's called in bounds or not. Any bets on when (not if) Highlands Bowl will be lift served??

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I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, but Kachina hasn’t been considered OB or side country for many, many years. It’s been inbounds and patrolled at least since the 80s, and probably the 70s, but I’m too lazy to look it up. It’s really not like Highlands bowl in that way.

Under the “can’t hurt” category, I searched around to see if you can buy the RECCO transmitter stickers only == bunch of TGR threads from 06 07, and seem to be available in Europe, but not here?


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Originally Posted by ThreeRidges

Under the “can’t hurt” category, I searched around to see if you can buy the RECCO transmitter stickers only == bunch of TGR threads from 06 07, and seem to be available in Europe, but not here?


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Recovering Extremely Cold Corpses Occasionally

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Originally Posted by ThreeRidges

Under the “can’t hurt” category, I searched around to see if you can buy the RECCO transmitter stickers only == bunch of TGR threads from 06 07, and seem to be available in Europe, but not here?

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They aren't available because they want to make money by selling the rights to clothing companies. They do require a certain placement to be effective kinda. I think the only piece of gear that I have with one in it is my bike helmet, which is kinda weird.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

They aren't available because they want to make money by selling the rights to clothing companies. They do require a certain placement to be effective kinda. I think the only piece of gear that I have with one in it is my bike helmet, which is kinda weird.

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People also stuck them to skis.. which was particularly stupid.

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Originally Posted by ThreeRidges

Under the “can’t hurt” category, I searched around to see if you can buy the RECCO transmitter stickers only == bunch of TGR threads from 06 07, and seem to be available in Europe, but not here?


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Heard someone say that the patrol will occasionally use their RECCO detectors to find a lost cell phone. Apparently, anything big and reflective can generate a hit, but not nearly as good as actual RECCO tags of course.

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Originally Posted by Not bunion

Both sides of this are somewhat correct.

Probably the most hazardous time to ski in bounds avalanche terrain is in the initial day to week that terrain is 1st opened and especially shortly after a significant loading event.

In my experiences there is some pressure from the guests and management. When I was pushed by either I had the suspect habit of telling them to fuck off, probably why I worked at 5 different areas over 30+ years.

Most of the pressure is internally from the patrol themselves.

They are usually good at what they do and believe they can mitigate the hazards using the same methods that have worked in the past. Where that goes astray is that they are dealing with extremely short return periods and what may work for 5-10 or 20 years may not line up the same way twice for a snow safety directors entire career.

Once terrain is open and heavily skied they can relax a bit and deal with new snow hazard rather than deeper instability.

That is one of the reasons the Highlands bootpacking program has been as successful as it has so far. They get on the snow early and trample it to the point that it no longer resembles what naturally occurs. When I was managing the Headwaters terrain we were on it as soon as you could access it, it is too steep to effectively bootpack the entire area so we ski packed as much as possible and opened it to skiing as soon as people could safely navigate even though they would probably damage equipment.

Every area and patrol has different comfort levels when it comes to dealing with their terrain. Not MMQBing but this incident can be attributed to a bunch of factors such as newer lift accessed terrain, patrol and management turnover, human factors and just plain bad luck.

The Slushmans Chair was rarely open its 1st season and that terrain was managed carefully, as time on target has increased so has that comfort level. Bridger still manages all their avalanche terrain conservatively and that is their cultural way of doing things.

At some point these types of incidents could cause the entire ski area forecasting programs to change their approach. That is a sorry state of affairs because when you look at the actual numbers, skiing in mitigated avalanche terrain is a lot safer than skiing green/blue trails.

/rant

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good shit, thanks. I love that all us Frequent Skier Card skiers were essentially free ski packers as soon as the tram and Challenger were open. I KNEW it!!! Ha. It didn't really matter what we thought about ruining our skis though, we'd be at bridger all season as soon as it opened. Our complaint's didn't matter.

Bridger is conservative, and I love that they are, snow lasts longer as things open slowly. Even in their conservatism, I'll point out, they made a mistake by opening the High-T late one record-breaking day. If they didn't Mike would be still alive. I don't hold any grudges, which even I'm surprised that I don't, I'm just making the point that it's impossible for Ski P to be perfect, day after day, decade after decade. Lots of respect to you all who try their best.

Except the assholes, ha.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, but Kachina hasn’t been considered OB or side country for many, many years. It’s been inbounds and patrolled at least since the 80s, and probably the 70s, but I’m too lazy to look it up. It’s really not like Highlands bowl in that way.

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I’m just a jong that spent a winter living in seco, and working at looney tunes and skiing every day but yeah the only thing that has changed is now there’s a lift to access the k-chutes that slid. Perhaps patrol’s sops have changed on kachina since the lift opened but it has been controlled as in bounds terrain for a long time. I remember skiing one of the k chutes with a crater in it ...

I also remember conversations related to wearing transceivers when skiing out there and the general concensus was that dog treats in your ski pants were a better bet...


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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, but Kachina hasn’t been considered OB or side country for many, many years. It’s been inbounds and patrolled at least since the 80s, and probably the 70s, but I’m too lazy to look it up. It’s really not like Highlands bowl in that way.

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Pretty sure Highlands Bowl is also inside of the boundary just like Kachina was before the lift was built there. My point is that they're building lifts in steeper, more difficult and higher avalanche risk terrain than they did last century. So, like Bridger, perhaps requiring proper gear should be the norm instead of the exception to ride the lifts to these higher risk zones.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Pretty sure Highlands Bowl is also inside of the boundary just like Kachina was before the lift was built there. My point is that they're building lifts in steeper, more difficult and higher avalanche risk terrain than they did last century. So, like Bridger, perhaps requiring proper gear should be the norm instead of the exception to ride the lifts to these higher risk zones.

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Highlands bowl was completely closed/OB for like 13 years. Kachina has never been OB.
https://aspenpeak-magazine.com/heedi...-highland-bowl
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_Highlands

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Pretty sure Highlands Bowl is also inside of the boundary just like Kachina was before the lift was built there. My point is that they're building lifts in steeper, more difficult and higher avalanche risk terrain than they did last century. So, like Bridger, perhaps requiring proper gear should be the norm instead of the exception to ride the lifts to these higher risk zones.

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In all honesty the beacon requirements at both Big Sky and BB are more of a weeding out barrier than for avalanche hazard. While I agree that more and more access to avalanche prone terrain seems to be in vogue these days if you look back over the past 20-30 years it has been going on at least that long. The Supreme lift at Alta was pretty rowdy terrain when it was 1st installed, same for the Challenger lift at BS (1988) and the Tram (1995).

By requiring beacons you raise the question, "If your mitigation efforts are so good then why do you need the beacon? if you aren't confident in your ability then should that terrain be open?"

And to add, the reports are that the rescue response had both victims out in under 30 minutes. That is a really fast response time to a chaotic event.

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Originally Posted by Not bunion

And to add, the reports are that the rescue response had both victims out in under 30 minutes. That is a really fast response time to a chaotic event.

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The runout for that slide is no more than a couple hundred flattish feet from a patrol station at the top of lift 4, and there is a patrol station at the top of the Kachina lift, and unless it’s storming the field of view for that spot is excellent, so the response time for 2-4 fully equipped trollers could hardly be shorter.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Pretty sure Highlands Bowl is also inside of the boundary just like Kachina was before the lift was built there. My point is that they're building lifts in steeper, more difficult and higher avalanche risk terrain than they did last century. So, like Bridger, perhaps requiring proper gear should be the norm instead of the exception to ride the lifts to these higher risk zones.

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We've been skiing high avi inbounds terrain for years. Kachina has always been inbounds hike-to terrain. Now is there pressure, real or perceived, to open it sooner with a lift? I think most likely not, but certainly a question by many.

I rarely went to Kachina when the lifts were spinning. The steeper more fun terrain has way less vert. West Basin ftw.

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

We've been skiing high avi inbounds terrain for years. Kachina has always been inbounds hike-to terrain. Now is there pressure, real or perceived, to open it sooner with a lift? I think most likely not, but certainly a question by many.

I rarely went to Kachina when the lifts were spinning. The steeper more fun terrain has way less vert. West Basin ftw.

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I was there in 1998 but only for a day. I remember staring at it lusting.. thinking how great it looked. But, after skiing as much of the lift served terrain as I could before my legs were mush there was no way hahaha. That was definitely a go get it early when you're still fresh for the hike scenario. I did hit something to the right of Lift 2 probably Spitfire or Oster, something in the middle over there. Had to drop a large cornice to get in and there were decent leftovers there that day. Fun stuff and absolutely as steep as anything I've ever skied.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Used to be like that here, till they made the side country inbounds. Sucks. But I'm wearing a beacon inbound from now on. Our local hill has had a few incidents over the years including a death inbounds from a slide.

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I always wear my beacon, and carry a small pack w probe, shovel and other necessities when I ski inbounds....

But I only ski Loveland and bootlick the Ridge as much as possible. And we know they have slides up there every winter despite the control work patrol does. Between that factor and treewells, deep snow, skiing alone mostly, I’d prefer to err on the side of caution and be equipped just in case even at the resort...

And it’s good training for AK! 🤣


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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Minor thread drift. How far away are we from a fairly effective smart phone app beacon? One that runs at the same time as Ski Trax type stuff would be pretty popular if it actually worked. Doesn't have to be super powerful, but better than a RECCO tag would be adequate for most in bounds steep terrain folks. I mean they can add frequencies to your smart phone that turn it in to a universal remote control or 2 way talkie and other non phone frequency things. A beacon frequency pulse seems possible, maybe need an antenna to connect to the headphone or usb jack?

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I was helping run a beacon park yesterday for a buncha sledders and had one group tell me their Garmin Rhino is basically capable of the same thing as a beacon. It does show your location or your buddies location pretty precisely, as they demonstrated. But, your buddy has to have 'checked in' in order to be seen, and you prolly can't 'check in' under a few feet of debris..

When I asked them about battery life they happily said it lasted all day, maybe two, to which I replied I put in new beacon batteries end of November, have turned it on every day, and am still reading over 90%. We did another beacon search drill after that.

The problem isn't that the technology isn't close, it's that people (read: general public) think it should already be there. Wear your beacon in avy terrain, please :)

We had a relatively small inbounds slide at a ski area where I was patrolling and the debris was visible from the chair lift. And the debris covered a traverse that returns to the base from a side country run. This ski area has an extremely high percentage of beacon users because they are required to hit the easily accessible side county.
I was first on scene from the top and was trying to do a beacon search and it was next to impossible to do a proper search because so many people kept coming with their beacons on. I am good with a beacon but was reading like ten to fifteen at once, I would get them to turn off but five more would show up.
It was great they all wanted to help and we utilized them in the probe line but way too many beacon on. It added so much time to doing a proper search. Turns out no one was buried but it was a seriously hard situation to control.

Thoughts to all involved and especially the family and friends of the injured and deceased.



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Sounds like the second skier who was buried has passed away now. From Vail. Sad

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Originally Posted by ODHGABFE

I was helping run a beacon park yesterday for a buncha sledders and had one group tell me their Garmin Rhino is basically capable of the same thing as a beacon. It does show your location or your buddies location pretty precisely, as they demonstrated. But, your buddy has to have 'checked in' in order to be seen, and you prolly can't 'check in' under a few feet of debris..

When I asked them about battery life they happily said it lasted all day, maybe two, to which I replied I put in new beacon batteries end of November, have turned it on every day, and am still reading over 90%. We did another beacon search drill after that.

The problem isn't that the technology isn't close, it's that people (read: general public) think it should already be there. Wear your beacon in avy terrain, please :)

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FFS...

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Sounds like the second skier who was buried has passed away now. From Vail. Sad

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Corey Borg. RIP

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Sounds like the second skier who was buried has passed away now. From Vail. Sad

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

Corey Borg. RIP

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RIP, Corey.

RIP. Condolences to family and friends.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Yeah, saw that at CSAW a few years back. Pretty cool. IIRC they set it up aimed at the East wall and SG's maybe?

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I don't understand this. LIDAR can identify slow movements and accelerating movements over time, but can't predict brittle failures due to a trigger like a hard slab avalanche triggered by a skier.

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Originally Posted by skiracer88_00

I don't understand this. LIDAR can identify slow movements and accelerating movements over time, but can't predict brittle failures due to a trigger like a hard slab avalanche triggered by a skier.

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"Optical wavelength, in which LiDAR operates, penetrates only a few cm into dry snow. Prokop (2008) and later Deems et al. (2014) showed that avalanches can be identified in repeated LiDAR scans as features that show snow mass balance loss in the starting zone and slide path and mass balance gain in the accumulation zone. The expensive LiDAR instruments generate highly accurate surface models (better than 15 cm), with measurement rates of up to 200,000 points per second. This is, to date, the most accurate way to map masses moved by snow avalanche but it can only cover single slopes. However, the fast measurement rates allow for short, energy efficient surveys, making long lasting campaigns feasible"

Vibes to the two deceased and their families. Also to Taos patrol - while shit can and will happen, they must be tearing themselves up over this. Ugh - I highly recommend avoiding Facebook comments on this story. Welcome to the new world of social media, where you have someone like Rick Armstrong arguing with some shithead gaper bitch from Texas.

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Originally Posted by Not bunion

Batteries are cheap, good habits are not easy to develop.

I have been on enough post control incidents in bounds that when I ski I just put my beacon on every day and take it off at the end of every day.

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Amen

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Vibes to the two deceased and their families. Also to Taos patrol - while shit can and will happen, they must be tearing themselves up over this. Ugh - I highly recommend avoiding Facebook comments on this story. Welcome to the new world of social media, where you have someone like Rick Armstrong arguing with some shithead gaper bitch from Texas.

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sucks that your social media world has shithead texas gaper bitches and shithead spansered salomon shills that came here to pimp the shitty boot that cost TC his knee
neither come round here
probably why i reside
vibes for the tribes loss of 2 fine young men

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

sucks that your social media world has shithead texas gaper bitches and shithead spansered salomon shills that came here to pimp the shitty boot that cost TC his knee
neither come round here
probably why i reside
vibes for the tribes loss of 2 fine young men

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It’s not “my” social media world. It’s just out there.

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

It’s not “my” social media world. It’s just out there.

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sfb seems a little crankier and more judgmental than usual of late.

This is a tough one. Vibes to the victims families and everyone touched by this.

I’ve never considered wearing a beacon inbounds, and I think probably 99+% of resort skiers are the same (except maybe at Bridger).
Maybe that will have to change.

Still, seems like whenever there is an inbounds slide, somebody screwed up. Hope this leads to meaningful changes not just at TSV, but across the industry to make things safer.

I suspect also, there will be lawsuits as a result of this, and hope TSV has sufficient insurance to weather the coming storm.

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Originally Posted by billyk

....
I suspect also, there will be lawsuits as a result of this, and hope TSV has sufficient insurance to weather the coming storm.

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Anyone know what New Mexicos legal world is around stuff like this?

A lawsuit against Taos would be a non-started in CO since it was open terrain and CO Supreme court ruled inbounds avalanches are one of the "inherent risks of skiing" which fall under the skier code.

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Originally Posted by billyk

I’ve never considered wearing a beacon inbounds

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If I recall correctly you're in Texas?

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Anyone know what New Mexicos legal world is around stuff like this?

A lawsuit against Taos would be a non-started in CO since it was open terrain and CO Supreme court ruled inbounds avalanches are one of the "inherent risks of skiing" which fall under the skier code.

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That’s a good point. I obviously don’t know the law on this. Maybe the families are screwed.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

If I recall correctly you're in Texas?

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Yeah, but I’ve lived other places too. Grew up in Washington and skied many years at Crystal.

Tell me, what percentage of skiers do you think are wearing beacons inbounds at resorts (that are not also skiing side country)?

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Anyone know what New Mexicos legal world is around stuff like this?

A lawsuit against Taos would be a non-started in CO since it was open terrain and CO Supreme court ruled inbounds avalanches are one of the "inherent risks of skiing" which fall under the skier code.

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The NM ski safety act doesn’t mention avalanches specifically:
https://recreation-law.com/2012/01/2...er-safety-act/

But there’s this:

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A person who takes part in the sport of skiing accepts as a matter of law the dangers inherent in that sport insofar as they are obvious and necessary. Each skier expressly assumes the risk of and legal responsibility for any injury to person or property which results from participation in the sport of skiing, in the skiing area, including any injury caused by the following: variations in terrain; surface or subsurface snow or ice conditions; bare spots; rocks, trees or other forms of forest growth or debris; lift towers and components thereof, pole lines and snow-making equipment which are plainly visible or are plainly marked in accordance with the provisions of Section 24-15-7 NMSA 1978; except for any injuries to persons or property resulting from any breach of duty imposed upon ski area operators under the provisions of Sections 24-15-7 and 24-15-8 NMSA 1978.

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And I came across this:
https://coloradosun.com/2019/01/18/s...lawsuits-fail/

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Originally Posted by billyk

Grew up in Washington and skied many years at Crystal.

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You will recall there being signage at some spots inbounds recommending wearing a beacon then?

Even though you apparently never considered doing so.