The 300g Touring Binding Thread

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Originally Posted by Summit

Forward travel (which is spring loaded) should theoretically supply some damping in its course of supporting expected release characteristics. You could call it elastic travel in ski flex but you'd rightly say that is a slight abuse of the term, but it does communicate the message. As I have not A-Bd underboot support for power transfer on the same binding model, I suspect you have not A-Bd the Ion with a binding that was identical except that it relied solely on a pin gap instead of forward travel? Sam Shaheen credited the forward travel of the Marker Alpinist to dampness in his Blister gear review.

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FWIW, I spent some time talking to Sam and Luke about this over the weekend. That was their initial conjecture, but after spending more time on the bindings and after getting a decent amount of time on the Zeds, they decided to remove that phrasing because they no longer believe that forward travel (or active length compensation) is correlated at all with the ‘smoothness’ they experienced with the Marker Alpinist. For example, they felt the Zed, which has this feature was harsher than the TLT Speed which doesn’t have it.

Also, as an aside, by ‘power transfer’ in the reviews, they were speaking about vagueness in the heel and precision felt through the toe. So... different from what I was describing. We’ll be adding that to our glossary and linking to it in our reviews to clarify.

And they further reiterated that the downhill performance of all of these bindings are very very very close, and that people should really be focusing on the other factors of binding selection instead. Its hard enough to discern the differences even with back to back runs with the same ski.

Thanks for the discussion!

ATK Crest vs Salomon MTN? Same price

Been looking closely at ATK Crest. What do you guys think of only 2 toe springs? Even the lightest race bindings have 4. Otherwise, it looks awesome, but kinda confused with this toe

Nice to see some competition in this category. Thinking/hoping the Euro market will keep manufacturers spending on design.

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Originally Posted by HukuTa_KydecHuk

Been looking closely at ATK Crest. What do you guys think of only 2 toe springs? Even the lightest race bindings have 4. Otherwise, it looks awesome, but kinda confused with this toe

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That's an interesting toe design - two springs on one side. I'd like to hear more about this.

... Thom

My feeling with the Crest is that although a cool company and nice design, it's a new design, and combined with the heel brake a pretty big departure for ATK. I waited for th next generation Raider, and was very pleasantly surprised when they changed/addressed about 10 different things.

I like ATK a lot, but again, as has been pointed out by many people many, many, times:

Don't buy an AT binding in its first year of release or in its first generation design. Let someone else beta test it for you/them.

I love the look of the crest. If BD starts to import them I will buy 2 pairs likely.

Looks like we have our beta tester!

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Originally Posted by plugboots

Looks like we have our beta tester!

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For me it seems like ATK is really conservative (in a good way) when bringing out new products. All their new bindings is a mix of their old RnDs with slight tweaks. So it's not like an untested product built from scratch.

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Originally Posted by HukuTa_KydecHuk

For me it seems like ATK is really conservative (in a good way) when bringing out new products. All their new bindings is a mix of their old RnDs with slight tweaks. So it's not like an untested product built from scratch.

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Nonetheless. (I like the company a lot and we have 2 pairs of Raider 2's.)

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Originally Posted by plugboots

Nonetheless. (I like the company a lot and we have 2 pairs of Raider 2's.)

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yeah. I love everything the Plum Oazo is about, but not this year. there are so many good already-proven tech bindings, why risk it?

Group question, I skied radical FT's years ago without issue. In the years since I've been on Radical 2.0 and for the last few years Kingpin's / Shifts.

I have a set of Renegades I'm looking to lighten up as a Hut trip setup for longer trips where I'm still wanting to get some good turns. I've had Kingpin's on there for a few years that I just sold because they started to seem like a liability in remote areas.

Thinking of putting Salomon MTN's on to replace them. Likely usage being long powder seeking days but still skiing down aggressively. Wanting to go light for days with 5-7k of vert. 6'2" 165 lbs. Any concerns with the MTN's holding up under that usage? I have some other skis with shifts for shorter days.

I was feeling comfortable about it but just borrowed a setup with Speed Radicals and immediately had the toe release in a situation I didn't feel like it should have. So now i'm a little spooked and thinking of going with Tecton's instead.

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

Group question, I skied radical FT's years ago without issue. In the years since I've been on Radical 2.0 and for the last few years Kingpin's / Shifts.

I have a set of Renegades I'm looking to lighten up as a Hut trip setup for longer trips where I'm still wanting to get some good turns. I've had Kingpin's on there for a few years that I just sold because they started to seem like a liability in remote areas.

Thinking of putting Salomon MTN's on to replace them. Likely usage being long powder seeking days but still skiing down aggressively. Wanting to go light for days with 5-7k of vert. 6'2" 165 lbs. Any concerns with the MTN's holding up under that usage? I have some other skis with shifts for shorter days.

I was feeling comfortable about it but just borrowed a setup with Speed Radicals and immediately had the toe release in a situation I didn't feel like it should have. So now i'm a little spooked and thinking of going with Tecton's instead.

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The mtn is bomber

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Sorry for the thread drift but can the speed turn heels rotate in both directions? Anything I need to know about going from ski to tour and from tour to ski?


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Originally Posted by hafjell

Sorry for the thread drift but can the speed turn heels rotate in both directions? Anything I need to know about going from ski to tour and from tour to ski?


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Yes the can. Pretty simple switch between tour to ski since you can rotate with your pole. The newest iteration of the riser is the easiest to operate with a pole (well, since they dropped the volcano.)

With the volcano, do you just rotate or do you need to lift before turning?


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ive got round 200 days on a atk freeraider 14
its all metal witch is always more bomber than plastic shit
and if i want to turn my din up or down in a quantitive number a simple turn of a tool gets it done
we sell some alpinists in addition to looking and the ski tour mode being cheesey flim flam as fuck
we need to call the marker rep for the jig
because marker incompetence has them all on back order

Crest seems bomber to me so far

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Originally Posted by Summit

Crest seems bomber to me so far

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You have a pair? I forget

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Originally Posted by Summit

Crest seems bomber to me so far

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Ramp angle?

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Originally Posted by SupreChicken

Ramp angle?

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I'll measure when I get back in town

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Originally Posted by SupreChicken

Ramp angle?

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Ditto


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Why do some folks disfavor the U-spring models? Because you can't independently set vertical and lateral release? Or some other issue?

Thinking about replacing the Kingpins on my Protests for one of these 300g options - leaning toward MTN or ATK/Hagan 12 (no U-spring).

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Originally Posted by meter-man

Why do some folks disfavor the U-spring models? Because you can't independently set vertical and lateral release? Or some other issue?

Thinking about replacing the Kingpins on my Protests for one of these 300g options - leaning toward MTN or ATK/Hagan 12 (no U-spring).

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Apparently the U springs wear down your heel insert faster and have less consistent release characteristics over time.

Plus it's a pain to switch out a spring to change release values.

There's a Blister Podcast with the guys at G3 where they discuss this (if I remember correctly it may even be linked elsewhere in this thread).

If you end up going with the Hagans give me a a shout - I can get you a discount code.

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Originally Posted by meter-man

Why do some folks disfavor the U-spring models? Because you can't independently set vertical and lateral release? Or some other issue?

Thinking about replacing the Kingpins on my Protests for one of these 300g options - leaning toward MTN or ATK/Hagan 12 (no U-spring).

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Looking at the MTNs or the Xenics personally

crests look great. I have a pair or HR2.0s on skimo-y skis and they are the most precise, cleanest and solid light AT bindings ive ever had. Dunno if theres much to be gained with the MTNs at 100g heavier per ski and a U spring vs adjustable release.

Anecdotally I can accept floating pins have better longevity vs U springs. Step in is def way easier too...

@summit, can you remove the brakes from the crests?

edit: Answered my own question i think, looks trivial...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sPfjzwSr8A

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Originally Posted by margotron

Looking at the MTNs or the Xenics personally

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I think I need my bindings to go to 11...
Attachment 268596
At least 11 anyway. I ski kinda like a fat kid.

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Originally Posted by lazyasian

Apparently the U springs wear down your heel insert faster and have less consistent release characteristics over time.

Plus it's a pain to switch out a spring to change release values.

There's a Blister Podcast with the guys at G3 where they discuss this (if I remember correctly it may even be linked elsewhere in this thread).

If you end up going with the Hagans give me a a shout - I can get you a discount code.

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Thanks for explaining! The Hagans/ATKs look so sick. But, after having been burned by Plum, I am extremely skeptical of customer service from small binding operations in Europe. I know Hagan is the US distributor (much better sitch than Plum), but I'm still skkkkeerrrrd. Really appreciate the offer, and may very well hit you up. Cheers!

I can see how the mtn will wear the boot insert over time. I use the expert u spring and it requires heavy stomping to click in.

But replacing the rear bit inserts is pretty easy.

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I’m curious about the mtn. Theres a pair local to me, at a good price. I’ve been using kruzpitze heels, and I dig the weight and simplicity, but I’m getting a fair number of prereleases. I’ve been tying down my heel with a voile strap for commiting lines. Do the u springs fatigue in a season? Are people happy with the mtn overall, tough enough for a normal adult skiing a bunch?


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Originally Posted by riff

I’ve been tying down my heel with a voile strap for commiting lines. Do the u springs fatigue in a season? Are people happy with the mtn overall, tough enough for a normal adult skiing a bunch?

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Is the idea with the strap that if the heel prereleases and the toes stay locked in, you'll just rebound back into the heel? Or is it to stop the prerelease altogether?

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Originally Posted by meter-man

The Hagans/ATKs look so sick. But, after having been burned by Plum, I am extremely skeptical of customer service from small binding operations in Europe. I know Hagan is the US distributor (much better sitch than Plum), but I'm still skkkkeerrrrd. Really appreciate the offer, and may very well hit you up. Cheers!

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SFB has a million miles on his old Raiders and my wife and I are going on three seasons on our Raider 2.0’s and they are completely bomber. I know it’s anecdotal, but we’re sold.
And that Crest video is perfect ATK. Just nice eloquent design.

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Originally Posted by hafjell

Is the idea with the strap that if the heel prereleases and the toes stay locked in, you'll just rebound back into the heel? Or is it to stop the prerelease altogether?

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Mostly stops the release altogether. I’ve had a large handful of mysterious low effort releases this year, and thought i had it fixed after warrantying some the old radical toes, but the issue continues. I tend to ski with the toes locked after many years of feeling insecure on pins, and rip skins without taking off the skis, so pins are clean.
I’ve generally been happy with my tectons for pow touring, but the toe seems pretty flexible while touring on firm surface, and they’re just too heavy for big days. I’m looking to find something a bit more reliable than the race heels but not as heavy as tectons.


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Originally Posted by riff

Mostly stops the release altogether. I’ve had a large handful of mysterious low effort releases this year, and thought i had it fixed after warrantying some the old radical toes, but the issue continues. I tend to ski with the toes locked after many years of feeling insecure on pins, and rip skins without taking off the skis, so pins are clean.
I’ve generally been happy with my tectons for pow touring, but the toe seems pretty flexible while touring on firm surface, and they’re just too heavy for big days. I’m looking to find something a bit more reliable than the race heels but not as heavy as tectons.


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I'm a pretty major weight-weenie, but I think the performance increase from a race heel to an mtn heel is worth the penalty. I switch between men's springs in winter and expert springs in spring. I can't imagine prereleasing the expert spring. It is stiff! Having used multiple pairs of race heels (Plum, Trab, Dynafit), the MTN has considerably less play, especially over time. The pins wear more evenly, and I'd suspect there is less insert wear due to the pins' ability to rotate. I still keep race heels on race skis and traverse skis, but am much more confident in the MTN in higher consequence terrain, and for more frequent use. I also like that I can keep a spare MTN heel spring in my repair kit, and it takes 2 min to replace in field.

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Originally Posted by trogdortheburninator

I'm a pretty major weight-weenie, but I think the performance increase from a race heel to an mtn heel is worth the penalty. I switch between men's springs in winter and expert springs in spring. I can't imagine prereleasing the expert spring. It is stiff! Having used multiple pairs of race heels (Plum, Trab, Dynafit), the MTN has considerably less play, especially over time. The pins wear more evenly, and I'd suspect there is less insert wear due to the pins' ability to rotate. I still keep race heels on race skis and traverse skis, but am much more confident in the MTN in higher consequence terrain, and for more frequent use. I also like that I can keep a spare MTN heel spring in my repair kit, and it takes 2 min to replace in field.

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Thanks for chiming in -- your opinion is super valuable. Have you used the speed superlight 2.0 heel? Does play develop in the u-spring? Besides play are there other performance increases in your mind switching to the MTN heel?

Solid beta and delightful point about field service on the spring. I’m getting closer to grabbing these.


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Originally Posted by riff

I’m curious about the mtn. Theres a pair local to me, at a good price. I’ve been using kruzpitze heels, and I dig the weight and simplicity, but I’m getting a fair number of prereleases. I’ve been tying down my heel with a voile strap for commiting lines. Do the u springs fatigue in a season? Are people happy with the mtn overall, tough enough for a normal adult skiing a bunch?


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I can't say enough good things about them.
Very strong toe springs, no pre releases.

Nice that you don't have to rotate the heel to get into tour mode.

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Originally Posted by meter-man

Why do some folks disfavor the U-spring models? Because you can't independently set vertical and lateral release? Or some other issue?

Thinking about replacing the Kingpins on my Protests for one of these 300g options - leaning toward MTN or ATK/Hagan 12 (no U-spring).

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did you read the whole 5 pages ?

we already discussed it

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Thanks for chiming in -- your opinion is super valuable. Have you used the speed superlight 2.0 heel? Does play develop in the u-spring? Besides play are there other performance increases in your mind switching to the MTN heel?

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I haven't personally used the SSL2 heel. Folks who I trust say it is a rock solid heel. Personally, I dont want a heel that I have to rotate to transition. I'd assume based on the design it will wear more like a standard race heel.

Overall, I think of the MTN as an excellent compromise binding.
Compared to a race binding, i get appreciably better retention and less play. I get enough length adjust to go from a race boot to a maestrale. I subjectively "feel" that the toe retention is also better than any race binding i've used. In winter I tour 80% of the time unlocked on the MTN, just because I can. Dynafit SSL and LTR toes have a really positive engage, but the propensity for cracking is a bit of a turn off in non-race situations - still a beautiful toe IMO, just with limitations. Plum race toe is noticeably less stiff in springs than MTN or LTR. I've never seen a cracked plum race toe, but I have had mine unlock itself pretty often when I wish it wouldnt (e.g. skiing firm snow in consequential terrain). On my current LTRs (manual locking) I've had the binding unlock itself too. This never happened on my previous auto-locking LTR. I would be psyched if the MTN could drop 50+ g, but I'm not too concerned. I've thought about chopping the high riser, but that seems a bit impulsive, and every now and then its nice breaking trail in deep snow.

Ignoring weight altogether, and just focusing on subjective and objective ski performance (which includes retention, power transfer, durability IMO), I'd rank the tech bindings I've owned in the following order:
Trab TR2 (toe and heel)
Salomon MTN (toe and heel)
G3 Ion LT (toe)
Dynafit Radical (toe)
Dynafit Comfort (toe and heel)
G3 ION LT (heel)
Dynafit LTR2 (toe)
Plum 150/170 (toe and heel)
Old trab race (toe and heel)
Dynafit LTR2 (heel)

I'd like to try some of the 200g ATKs still.

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Originally Posted by trogdortheburninator

I'd like to try some of the 200g ATKs still.

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Would love to know where the ATKs placed in your list.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Nice that you don't have to rotate the heel to get into tour mode.

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Rotating the heels isn't a deal breaker for me, but wouldn't it be nice if it wasn't necessary? A real benefit.

Awesome. Thanks for the detailed response, Jason. I'd also like to try some of those 200g heels. The BD Helio (rebranded ATK) 200 without the adjustment plate is 165g with adjustable lateral and vertical release and looks sick. Toe engagement is always a question, and I don't know anyone who's used it extensively.