Title 9 is dead

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Originally Posted by The AD

To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.

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the easy solution is to make dominant participants no longer eligible to participate. Eg I’m aware of a non sports biennial competition where makers who’ve received gold medals at three separate competitions are no longer eligible to participate. The hard part for sports is the dominant competitor likes being dominant, and the fans of them enjoy the dominance, even if it’s bad for the sport overall.

at high levels aren’t most competitors exogenously altering/managing their physiology though? The question seems to be what’s the acceptable level of management which is a somewhat arbitrary line.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

the easy solution is to make dominant participants no longer eligible to participate.

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Why the hell would anyone advocate that?

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

It’s a tough topic, probably no perfect answer. For kids, I think it’s more nuanced.

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When kids are involved, I personally see zero nuance in this. I just don't see any fathomable reason where the perceived "fairness" of youth sports would ever trump the outright inclusion of marginalized kids.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

How is being trans any different than any other physical/mental trait? We dont offer exceptions for short people, slow people, weak people, or folks who are headcases that have difficulty performing under pressure. Why are transwomen the only people deserving of such an exception? No one is stopping trans folks from competing in rec leagues and enjoying the benefits of sport like the rest of us who didnt have the physical/mental talents to make it to the "next level".

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Well. We do have special Olympics.
Which is cool for them. It’s a big party and everyone gets a trophy.

But as far as max human achievements? Isn’t there a standard?
Yes. Doping happens. That’s why they test.

But women can’t compete in chess? Wtf.

Someone said no more categories. Ok. Fine.
But then there’s no more sports for the fairer sex. It’s all equal. Or. Not.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

When kids are involved, I personally see zero nuance in this. I just don't see any fathomable reason where the perceived "fairness" of youth sports would ever trump the outright inclusion of marginalized kids.

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^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!^^^^^^^^^^^

Nobody in elementary through high school's going to go that extreme just to intentionally cheat. College is "professional" for all intents and purposes now so I have no problem with stricter eligibility rules at the college level.

Let's leave it to the NBA/WNBA to figure out how best to handle eligibility.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Nobody in elementary through high school's going to go that extreme just to intentionally cheat. College is "professional" for all intents and purposes now so I have no problem with stricter eligibility rules at the college level.

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I think you are right for JV high school and below. Inclusion is A-OK, because those really are just rec-league sports. The participants are also usually young enough that the physical differences between the sexes hasnt become extreme, yet. Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc), and the physical maturation of males has or is in the process of taking place.

No solution here will be perfect and work for every situation.

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Originally Posted by The AD

To me an intrinsic part of sports is the realization nearly every athlete has that there's most likely going to be someone better than them and most athletes are going to lose more than they're going to win. And, yes, that the athletic freak is going to kick your ass. The calculus changes when someone suddenly becomes dominant, for example because they start taking steroids to improve their performance or they change their gender from male to female. I suppose some people might think these latter cases are just an example that "sports aren't fair," but to me they are way different. When you start altering your physiology through exogenous means you are doing something much different than training.

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Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc)

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I'm (respectfully) a hard disagree on this as well. The number of trans athletes at this level is absurdly low. If they are interfering with securing a scholarship, then there are likely far larger forces at play (lack of skill, training, overall value of the athlete to colleges, etc.).

I also don't see any greater value in state championships or school records that would ever outweigh a society supporting marginalized children. That's a tough one for me to ever see the opposite POV on.

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Originally Posted by mcski

Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

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I think it ultimately depends on what the WMBA and NWSL decide. If they let transleates play then there's no real argument for high school or college to exclude them. If the say no, ineligible, there is not much justification for college and high school varsity level either..

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

I'm a hard disagree on this as well. The number of trans athletes at this level is absurdly low. If they are interfering with securing a scholarship, then there are likely far larger forces at play (lack of skill, training, overall value of the athlete to colleges, etc.).

I also don't see any greater value in state championships or school records that would ever outweigh a society supporting marginalized children. That's a tough one for me to ever see the opposite POV on.

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D1 studs will not be affected. agreed. But a borderline 800m girl who gets 4th in the state semis, and misses out on recording a state finals time to a trans girl, could miss out on getting noticed by colleges at the meet for a quick/rough example. Or the girl who worked her ass off at the 800m and had dreams of winning a state title like her mom before her gets beat out by a recently transitioned trans girl her senior year. The simple fact is that men and women are not starting from the same baseline, so if we are going to have separate womens sports, it should be for biological women.

I dont see the value in giving an artificial boost to trans-athletes when there are countless other ways to support them, where it doesnt come at the expense of other women (another marginalized group). If you dont allow trans girls to participate in girls sports it is unfair to a miniscule number of transgirls. If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

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Originally Posted by mcski

Seems like the opposite to me in that PEDs are much more democratic than the genetic lottery of the “pure” athlete. If you want to improve your odds by any means necessary, have at it.

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Eh, it would just make slightly different folks rise to the top. Different people respond differently to PEDs, some are super responders, some arent. Some can handle MASSIVE doses with few side effects, some get big side effects with minimal dosages. It would still be a genetic lottery, just slightly different numbers would hit the jackpot.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I dont see the value in giving an artificial boost to trans-athletes when there are countless other ways to support them, where it doesnt come at the expense of other women. If you dont allow trans girls to participate in girls sports it is unfair to a miniscule number of transgirls. If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

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I think this is well said.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

If you do allow them to participate is is unfair to every single girl that they compete against.

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But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

You can say that again!..

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZYobFW3_s

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

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It is widely accepted in these studies that going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes such as increased bone size and density, increased lung size, etc beyond what is typically achievable through female puberty (not to mention the anotomical differences resulting in easier injury like ACL tears for women). Despite this, the analysis of some of these studies concludes that there is no link between these traits of transwomen and athletic success at the elite female level. I find it extremely difficult to believe that these traits do not offer a competitive advantage to an athlete all other things being equal.

I dont think there is a solution that is fair to everyone. So, i think we need to make sure we are as fair as possible to the overwhelmingly large majority. But all that said, i really dont care much about this... i have a son and dont ever watch womens sports except if the olympics are on, so this issue is about as lowdown on my priority list as what color they should paint a fire lane curb.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

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Needs repeated.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

But there are a million reasons why the girls in your examples could have lost their races that have nothing to do with talent. Most of which (like socioeconomic status) we can't control. And this isn't settled science whatsoever. There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

So (not trying to make this political, but this issue is almost purely that right now), you're suggesting I ignore that it's impossible to make youth sports fair, that the science isn't settled, and that the numbers of people impacted here are minuscule, all to get in bed with people who are using these anti-trans laws to attack a marginalized population in order to advance their own bigotry, hate, and shit political agenda? Hard pass.

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Totally agree w this. This issue definitely is not the real threat to Title 9

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

They're called seed times. They already do that. They don't put fast runners with slow runners in a race. It's never used to determine the outcome of a race like a handicap would be.

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Excellent point. Cut the field in half (or into quarters or more, depending on how big the conference is). Use the seed times to do the cutting. Equally fund all splits.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Excellent point. Cut the field in half (or into quarters or more, depending on how big the conference is). Use the seed times to do the cutting. Equally fund all splits.

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The goal is to be the fastest runner, not the runner who improves the most.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I think you are right for JV high school and below. Inclusion is A-OK, because those really are just rec-league sports. The participants are also usually young enough that the physical differences between the sexes hasnt become extreme, yet. Varsity and above is where something tangible and legit is on the line (scholarships, state championships, school records, etc), and the physical maturation of males has or is in the process of taking place.

No solution here will be perfect and work for every situation.

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There is fuckall on the line for most high school varsity sports. The number of high school athletes that play in college is <10% with the exception of ice hockey (m & w) and m lacrosse (m&w)That’s just what playing, and only 1/3 of them get any sort of scholarship.

lord this thread reeks of middle aged dudes dreaming of glory days

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Originally Posted by The AD

The goal is to be the fastest runner, not the runner who improves the most.

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Oh sure. But also to compete and be the best you can be and accomplish things. And like learn teamwork and all that shit everybody trumpets on about.

Somebody can still be the fastest. And a Class C champion can still brag about it. Same reason the D8 teams don’t play the D1 teams in the championship.

I see plenty of “Division 4 Football Champs, 1987” signs when I drive into random small towns. Those kids are still proud and they should be and you’re a douche if you go tell them the Division 2 team you were on in 1987 would have TROUNCED those guys.

It’s not like you can’t do it and have it be meaningful. We just don’t do it that way right now and maybe we should. OR we could stop worrying about your kid being second to some trans kid.

But telling them to fuck off because you don’t want to include them in their peer group doesn’t feel like the right thing to do. I’m a little shocked that so many seem to feel that way. Really? Between Bethany getting a gold medal and some kid being able to participate in sports, we’re picking the gold medal? Fuck that and fuck those who are stuck there.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Oh sure. But also to compete and be the best you can be and accomplish things. And like learn teamwork and all that shit everybody trumpets on about.

Somebody can still be the fastest. And a Class C champion can still brag about it. Same reason the D8 teams don’t play the D1 teams in the championship.

I see plenty of “Division 4 Football Champs, 1987” signs when I drive into random small towns. Those kids are still proud and they should be and you’re a douche if you go tell them the Division 2 team you were on in 1987 would have TROUNCED those guys.

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That's a bit different, though. Those divisions are determined by school enrollment, not by ability.

And I definitely don't think the trans thing needs to be considered until at least high school.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

But telling them to fuck off because you don’t want to include them in their peer group doesn’t feel like the right thing to do. I’m a little shocked that so many seem to feel that way. Really? Between Bethany getting a gold medal and some kid being able to participate in sports, we’re picking the gold medal? Fuck that and fuck those who are stuck there.

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There's another option and that's for them to continue to compete as a male. I know it's not ideal, but if they want to continue to compete I'm not sure why that's not a viable option. You can't make everyone 100% happy. There's a lot more precedence of girls competing in boys events than the other way around.

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Originally Posted by The AD

That's a bit different, though. Those divisions are determined by school enrollment, not by ability.

And I definitely don't think the trans thing needs to be considered until at least high school.



There's another option and that's for them to continue to compete as a male. I know it's not ideal, but if they want to continue to compete I'm not sure why that's not a viable option. You can't make everyone 100% happy.

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I don’t think it’s that different. Ability is very much a factor in whether that d4 team had a hope of hanging with the D1 team. We’re already setting the bar lower for kids in smaller schools.

And you can’t make everybody 100% happy, but you can treat everybody with respect and compassion, and that should be goal 1.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

lord this thread reeks of middle aged dudes dreaming of glory days

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Attachment 467996

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

There is nothing but a slew of contradictory studies that trans athletes actually have a competitive advantage.

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The problem with this is that “trans” doesn’t imply estrogen/testosterone use. Trans can mean all biological-sex assigned at birth hormones still remain, unaltered. Trans doesn’t automatically imply gender confirming surgery and/or hormones. So if you have a trans identifying trans woman who isn’t on estrogen, she most certainly has a biological advantage of much higher testosterone levels. Plenty of trans folks opt out of hormone therapy to avoid medical risks associated with their use.

This, of course, assumes we all generally agree testosterone increases hemoglobin, cardiac output, lean muscle mass, and VO2 max which are all factors in sports performance.

Anyone personally have a child affected by the situation...either wanted to play and couldn't or a daughter that got beat by a trans athlete? What does your kid think?

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

^ sure, but…. What if….?

I heard the women who lost to Lia Thomas were stoked to see her win.


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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

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this IS a ski forum. And it IS summertime. Soooooo.

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Originally Posted by east or bust

I heard the women who lost to Lia Thomas were stoked to see her win.


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Riley gaines literally has made a career within right wing media after tieing with Lia Thomas for off-the-podium at some college meet. I am pretty sure there were a lot more competitors vocal about their displeasure as well... including the whole lockerroom situation with her.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Anyone personally have a child affected by the situation...either wanted to play and couldn't or a daughter that got beat by a trans athlete? What does your kid think?

Or, just a bunch of white dudes playing what ifs based on things "they read on the internet"?

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you’ve just summarized the trans panic

edit: if you wanted you could expand it to: gave you ever interacted with a trans person?

All we really need is to have NASTAR come in and give all the athletes a handicap score they get to leverage against the best athlete on the field any particular day.

Then they will also send EVERYONE an email saying they "qualified" for NASTAR Nationals.. Totally inclusive!

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

All animals are equal, but some are more equal

https://www.ctpost.com/highschool/ar...o-12967306.php

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There might be value in going back and reading the article linked in the OP -

gender may be based on "gender identity". so a physiologic male, who "identifies as female" competes in the girls' races.


no. Just no.

At our last downhill skateboarding race, there was a women's class, an open class, and a master's class. There was a super cool equal $1000 prize purse for the winners of women/open. Everyone competes together in an open tournament, and then women/masters have an opportunity to do additional contests.

There were 5 born women and 3 trans women who registered.

The first trans woman has been presenting as a very feminine female for 10 years, competing in our tight little women's group for 5 years, and on hormone therapy for 3 years. She was allowed to compete in women's with no issues and finished in the middle of the pack.

The second trans woman was recently the #2 world champion in men's class and had come out as Trans in the last year. She presents as nonbinary and wore a dress to the race but has an extremely athletic male build and a handlebar mustache. She asked to join women's, but they said no. She would've easily won the women's and almost won the open. I competed against her in open, and she destroyed me in our heat.

The third trans woman came out as trans the day of the race during registration when she asked to race in the women's event. She wore a dress to the event but presents male. They said no, and she got knocked out in the first round of opens. She's typically a very good sport and not really a prankster and is still going back on forth on her gender identity. Some people think that she really is just coming into herself; some people think she was trying to steal the prize money.

How would you have handled it?

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Where's Hemingway? He would probably tell us none of this matters because there are only three sports.

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Originally Posted by mud

Where's Hemingway? He would probably tell us none of this matters because there are only three sports.

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based on the bling aren’t all bullfighters trans?

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Originally Posted by dunfree

based on the bling aren’t all bullfighters trans?

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Nah, almost certainly Q though. I guess you could make the argument for T after an unfortunate goring though.

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Originally Posted by allmountainsnowskating

How would you have handled it?

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Not sure, but it definitely highlights that there must be standards in place. You don't want to just arbitrarily decide who's a woman and who is not, but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

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Originally Posted by The AD

but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

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I agree with you, but many don’t.

In the controversial “what is a woman” documentary that is exactly the question asked.

So is there some criteria for being a trans woman? Do I need surgical procedures and estrogen? What if I’m just starting out on estrogen but still quite masculine but very much identify as a woman?

The double standard exists, as does the bias. We’re told time and again gender is non-binary, fluid, ever changing. If that is true, then all the previously mentioned skate boarders should be accepted as they present themselves, no questions asked. And the Canadian bearded power lifter who crushed the record bench by 100lbs should be accepted as well.

Right?

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Originally Posted by The AD

Not sure, but it definitely highlights that there must be standards in place. You don't want to just arbitrarily decide who's a woman and who is not, but I think we can agree throwing a dress on doesn't make someone a woman, either.

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at what point do genital inspections get creepy, weird, and invasive? It’s really easy to toss bromides about standards around

And of course trackhead watched white nationalist bigot mattwalshs derpshit “what is a woman” yeah man, you don’t want vitriol, you just watch hate filled bigots shit themselves. Mask off moment right there