The Nutrition Science thread

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Originally Posted by The AD

I predict the whole keto diet fad will fade quickly. It just doesn't seem like a sustainable diet for most people. Restrictive diets are bullshit in general. All things in moderation is my credo.

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It's been around in one form or the other since the 19th century. But widespread popularity will always fade after a surge, because 1) most people actually don't lose that much fat, as opposed to the initial burst of lost water weight (they eat too much on it to lose more fat), and 2) yes it's very restrictive and hard psychologically to stay on. It can be close to a lifesaver for things like some forms of epilepsy, and short-term can help diabetics as well.

Paleo is funny because while it's technically junk science, and keto has better science behind it, Paleo is more sustainable and a lot of the dietary recommendations really aren't bad for most people.

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Originally Posted by jono

Good info in here. Along the lines of blood sugar, what's the story with cinnamon? Seems to be a lot of small studies in diabetics out there, but I don't see anything beyond theories as to why it's helpful.

I know a diabetic who eats a mini cinnamon roll most evenings because she says her blood sugar consistently tests better the next morning. Been at this for quite a few years now.

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A mini cinnamon roll seems like a less than ideal delivery device.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

I think that all a diet really does is get you to pay attention to what you are actually eating. Anyone who does that will eat less shit and lose weight.

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That's a big part of it. For most people cutting "carbs" means cutting white flour fried in soybean oil. It's not like your average American is eating steel cut oats or whole buckwheat cereal on the reg.

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Originally Posted by Skidog

Most mornings she does heavy cream and non sugar sweetener.

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Watch the sweeteners. The evidence that aspartame, sucralose, saccharin and stevia are implicated in weight gain, insulin resistance and impaired glucose tolerance is pretty strong at this point, though stevia is the least studied and a better choice than the others:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...angerous-ways/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615743/

Erythritol seems pretty neutral. But, it has kind of a weird flavor and causes flatulence and gastric distress in some people just like all other sugar alcohols. Glycine, an amino acid that is almost as sweet as sucrose, is definitely good for you (https://link.springer.com/article/10...038-009-0100-9) and has no downsides that I'm aware of.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

A mini cinnamon roll seems like a less than ideal delivery device.

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Jumbo cinnamon roll it is.

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Originally Posted by The AD

All things in moderation is my credo.

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A lot of people have problems with moderation. If you're in that group a binary scenario can be the better option. Hell, I have pretty good self control but I don't keep potato chips in my house because one bag = one serving, even if I bought that bag at Costco.

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Originally Posted by GhostofSeasonsPast

Paleo is funny because while it's technically junk science, and keto has better science behind it, Paleo is more sustainable and a lot of the dietary recommendations really aren't bad for most people.

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Paleo is the healthiest "by default." Sure, you can get into bullshit like "paleo" cookies made with almond flour, coconut oil and honey, but for the most part it's just whole foods. Whereas, you can eat keto, vegan, low-cal, IIFYM, etc. diets that are 100% processed garbage.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Jumbo cinnamon roll it is.

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I think just a teaspoon straight would be the way to go. Video's abound of people doing this so it must be good.

On a serious note, wife and I have been trying to work in a plant based meal once a week. Bean/legume based protein and whatnot. Never been much for recipes, but have the Forks Over Knives and The Feed Zone cookbooks that have a lot of really good looking recipes so we have made a plan to start incorporating some of these and maybe add a second day of the week for some of these. Just hard sometimes with schedules sometimes, but going to add to the routine.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Jumbo cinnamon roll it is.

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Cinnamon Challenge FTW.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Cinnamon Challenge FTW.

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This is about how I'd imagine it going down:

Beans and rice are a new technology, and game-changers.

So much nutritional "science" is utter bullshit.
And Paleo? You know cavemen lived only till like 25, right?

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

You know cavemen lived only till like 25, right?

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Wrong.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

So much nutritional "science" is utter bullshit.

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Pretty true of studies that use FFQs, which are well known to be garbage data. But, there's plenty of solidly settled science in this field.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

And Paleo? You know cavemen lived only till like 25, right?

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If you completely misunderstand the meaning of life expectancy at birth and are equally ignorant of the common causes of death in the paleolithic age, then yeah, sure. Take a lap.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

So much nutritional "science" is utter bullshit.
And Paleo? You know cavemen lived only till like 25, right?

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Life expectancy isn't the issue with Paleo. Cave girls and boys ate widely varied diets, depending on among other things where they lived. Then, agriculture happened, with plenty of time for evolutionary changes to spread through not just some humans, but our dogs also.

It's in that weird place of being a little off in its science (or rather really not derived from science), but still kind of functional and not a bad idea.

@stuckie: They got stomped by dinosaurs bruh, of course they didn't live long.

https://i.imgur.com/7elglQ5l.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

...
Paleo is the healthiest "by default." Sure, you can get into bullshit like "paleo" cookies made with almond flour, coconut oil and honey, but for the most part it's just whole foods. Whereas, you can eat keto, vegan, low-cal, IIFYM, etc. diets that are 100% processed garbage.

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FWIW the coconut oil and alternative flours are imo not bad either. If it means people aren't mainlining donuts quite so often. But a Paleo dessert cookbook is a funny contradiction.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

So much nutritional "science" is utter bullshit.
And Paleo? You know cavemen lived only till like 25, right?

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Only the slow ones.

edit: ice got there first

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

A mini cinnamon roll seems like a less than ideal delivery device.

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Yeah that's actually what got me wondering--if it works so well that it still works despite that, or is it possible that she's seeing a down cycle following an up overnight? Hard to find strong data. I did ask her if she'd tried just taking a capsule or something to see if it's the same, but no luck. She's given up everything else, so probably wants to keep the cinnamon rolls pretty bad.

I'm adding cinnamon to tea as a way to make soymilk palatable at the end of the day, but that's a long story about bile and the inability to make stomach acid and I doubt it helps anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Bromontane

Bile sounds like an English snack.

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Spotted dickAttachment 236331

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Originally Posted by Bromontane

Bile sounds like an English snack.

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Some days it's miserable, but I don't think it ever gets quite that bad!

Sounds more like a punk rock band and/or singer.

It's what the Irish guy wants the water to do so he can make his tea.

I bet the thai curry stir fry I made with peppers and tritip and panang curry and coconut milk served over Jasmin rise that I wasn't paleo. Fucking good though. Suck it

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

I bet the thai curry stir fry I made with peppers and tritip and panang curry and coconut milk served over Jasmin rise that I wasn't paleo. Fucking good though. Suck it

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So being an ignorant dumbass in this thread wasn't getting enough attention for you, so you had to ramp up to being a dick too? How's that working out for you?

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Originally Posted by Danno

So being an ignorant dumbass in this thread wasn't getting enough attention for you, so you had to ramp up to being a dick too? How's that working out for you?

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Lol.

I love fried chicken, myself, but I am conscious of the physique of the average customer at my favorite fried chicken place. Keeps the dietary feet firmly on the ground to see those waistlines.

Low carb tortillas aren't too bad. Smell like ass, and roll like thick paper, but end results were ok. Need to try frying them.

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Originally Posted by Danno

So being an ignorant dumbass in this thread wasn't getting enough attention for you, so you had to ramp up to being a dick too? How's that working out for you?

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My belly is full and I don't bother anyone with bs dietary restrictions or pretentious fad diets, so I'd say it's working out great.

I'm beginning to think Creaky was right about you. So you're perfectly svelte and have zero health issues, good for you. If only we could all be blessed with your physique, knowledge of nutrition, and just general awesomeness. Sorry that we had to intrude on that awesomeness and bother you by having a thread dedicated to what is obviously our own shortcomings.

Just keep being a dick, it's obviously working for you.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I'm beginning to think Creaky was right about you. So you're perfectly svelte and have zero health issues, good for you. If only we could all be blessed with your physique, knowledge of nutrition, and just general awesomeness. Sorry that we had to intrude on that awesomeness and bother you by having a thread dedicated to what is obviously our own shortcomings.

Just keep being a dick, it's obviously working for you.

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Puny human, creaky is always right about everything.
And my iron gut and balanced diet are probably my best features.

My wife and I am starting the keto way to eat. Yes we both have some weight to lose but we want to see what it will do for her cancer. She gets CT scans every 6 months now so should be a good test.

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Originally Posted by jono

I'm adding cinnamon to tea as a way to make soymilk palatable at the end of the day, but that's a long story about bile and the inability to make stomach acid and I doubt it helps anyone else.

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Damn, that sounds rough. My MIL had to have her gall bladder removed, but didn't follow the dietary recommendations afterwards and gave herself acute pancreatitis (her lipase levels were off the charts). Now she's restricted to a maximum of 10g of fat per meal and 20g total per day. Brutal.

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

I bet the thai curry stir fry I made with peppers and tritip and panang curry and coconut milk served over Jasmin rise that I wasn't paleo. Fucking good though. Suck it

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Sounds pretty paleo besides the rice, and white rice is generally given a pass if you need to bulk up a meal with some easy calories. Not that you should be doing that, but some people need to.

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Originally Posted by Danno

So being an ignorant dumbass in this thread wasn't getting enough attention for you, so you had to ramp up to being a dick too? How's that working out for you?

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Classic stuckie moronicity. Should have seen him tripling down on the stupid regarding MTB mud fenders recently.

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Originally Posted by GhostofSeasonsPast

I love fried chicken, myself, but I am conscious of the physique of the average customer at my favorite fried chicken place. Keeps the dietary feet firmly on the ground to see those waistlines.

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"You know, what is good for ya? It's your own body can tell what's good for ya."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfbTO0GlONU

Let's say that you consume close to zero carbs all day long, then have an IPA that is roughly 15g of carbs. Can you still accomplish Ketosis? Asking for a friend ;)

Hey Dan, I might almost be coming around on mud guards and hosing off your bike. Not rice, though.
Now stay off my lawn, you damn kids!

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Originally Posted by Millsie1

My wife and I am starting the keto way to eat. Yes we both have some weight to lose but we want to see what it will do for her cancer. She gets CT scans every 6 months now so should be a good test.

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Just had my 1 year appt with my med onc and it occurred to me after that I never really discussed diet with him much: I never worried about ketosis, but sugar and alpha tocopherol were both terminated with extreme prejudice (PM me if you want to talk good vs bad Vitamin E's in entirely too much detail). Every little bit helps (if it actually helps...), you just never know how much credit to give what. Which seems to be one reason we don't hear more specific best practices for diet and such in the cancer context.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Damn, that sounds rough. My MIL had to have her gall bladder removed, but didn't follow the dietary recommendations afterwards and gave herself acute pancreatitis (her lipase levels were off the charts). Now she's restricted to a maximum of 10g of fat per meal and 20g total per day. Brutal.

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Damn! I'm counting my blessings on this thing for sure. At least it's not pancreatitis--or English food! But the obvious fat connection has had me curious about bile production in ketosis. I have friends saying I should try IF now that I have 5 lbs to play with, but I'm really mostly just interested in getting my body to burn fat for fuel on long days.

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Originally Posted by Bromontane

How long before the piss strips cease being useful? I red somewhere you gotta stick a needle in yer arm to get good results.

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No needles, just a little pin stick in the finger, like testing blood sugar. Volek/Phinney recommend against the pee strips because the measurements can be inaccurate/invalid. The advantage to the blood strips is that they're highly accurate and you can test throughout the day. Strips of some sort are the only way to reliably fine-tune your diet for keto. People respond differently to carbs, and those responses are different for varying carb sources. For instance, I could eat copious quantities of dark chocolate without any issues. A beer is probably fine, but the only way to know is to test. Your breakfast looks really carb heavy to me, so I'd test after eating that as well.

ETA: Total carbs and protein aren't the only consideration. Carbs and protein in a single sitting matter as well. If you've set your limit to 50g of carbs for the day, and you eat the entire 50g in a single meal, you're very likely going to stop producing ketone bodies.

Not picking on anybody here, but this thread being in the PR and all, just thought I'd inject a little humor I appreciated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRDf-391LXY

Well that's the thing about science, it tends to evolve as more shit comes to light. What are the long-term ramifications of a ketogenic diet in healthy people? It's somewhat difficult to say. Perhaps it's uniformly great for people, but perhaps not. Certainly we didn't evolve to live that way, fat is a valuable commodity in nature because it tends to be rare.

So I tend to try to follow a middle course with an eye towards what our distant ancestors might have eaten. Whole fruits, nuts, large intermittent servings of lean protein, fat as a bonus, minimal sugar, etc. Like the rest of nutrition science it's somewhat hazy but the Mediterranean diet has been practiced for a very long time by a lot of people and overall they tend to be pretty healthy so if I'm going to err its in that direction.

I tend to agree with that, ice. As mud said, I think keto is a valuable tool among many, but for the long-term, just avoiding shit food is a pretty good policy. I do think that "training" your body to be an efficient fat burner makes for an ideal scenario. That requires limiting carbs to some extent. Not necessarily by counting them, but more by relying on fruit and healthy starches, knowing what you're eating, and avoiding sugar and processed foods. And, not necessarily to the extreme that keto requires, but certainly far less than the average American eats. For me personally, fat isn't a bonus, though. I'm pretty active, and in the absence of large quantities of carbs, I rely on fat. Without it, things start to fall apart.

If anybody is looking for some less extreme options, Primal by Mark Sisson is very easy and approachable. Chris Kresser has his own version of "paleo" that's based on current research and overall health, rather than arbitrary restrictions. They're both shills to some extent - particularly Sisson, who is getting worse - but if you can ignore that, they provide a pretty good road map to what I consider to be healthy eating.

I'm kinda bummed to be eliminating fructose. Juice drinks even diluted halfway with water are way more entertaining than water. But double whammy of fructose and sugar or aspartame and I guess I should cut back even though I don't have any apparent problems. All my blood work comes back good but dad had late onset diabetes so always a bit concerned about that.

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Originally Posted by jono

Alpha tocopherol

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Sure, I'm always down for some cliff notes when someone just studied something like that.

Almost 2 weeks in on this diet. Going well except that I have been sleeping like shit. Need to figure out if there are supplements that could help (ie am I missing something in my diet that's part of this issue).

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Originally Posted by Rideski

Why does some of the fat from bacon render, while some stays solid?
What are the health differences of the two?

Why does Pork fat (from a shoulder etc) wash off the dishes easier than beef or chicken?

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Here's a halfway believable answer from reddit on the different parts of bacon.
I'm guessing I'll find that chicken and beef fat is comprised of differing amounts of saturated and non without the dividing line like bacon, resulting in different melting temperatures.

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Fats are a type of lipid (which include oils and such) which are made from a glycerol head and a fatty acid tail. The fatty acid tail is mostly a chain of carbons attached to hydrogens. The structure of the fatty acids is divided into two classifications: saturated fats, and unsaturated fats.

Saturated fats have the carbon chain filled with hydrogens (each carbon is bonded to two other carbons and two hydrogens), so they form a straight line, and the molecules of the saturated fat can pack together well. Saturated fats tend to stay solid at high temperatures relative to unsaturated fats.

Unsaturated fats do not have each carbon filled with two hydrogens. Instead, the carbon will form a double bond with a neighboring carbon bond and bond with only one hydrogen, so there will be a kink in the fatty acid, making it angular (this is because the carbon's VSEPR structure would be trigonal planar). As a result, molecules of unsaturated fats do not pack together as well and stay liquid at higher temperatures relative to saturated fats.

Lipids do not dissolve in water (since they are nonpolar), so saturated fats can potentially clog arteries and blood vessels (more so than unsaturated fats, because they tend to be solid at higher temperatures).

EDIT: The health benefits are a bit more nuanced. There are also other reasons saturated fats are not healthy, compared to unsaturated fats. However, hydrogenating unsaturated fats may produce unsaturated fats with trans double bonds (transfat), which may contribute more to other health problems related to high fat consumption.

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