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While all that is true, and this isn’t your fault- you’re missing the point I was trying to make. we got a foggy look at where the market is at for these brands/indies when Armada sold. I for one was surprised they were worth so ‘little,’ relatively speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
So I'm thinking....
About 30-40 on snow days usually results in enough base damage to warrant a repair, which means you need a grind.
Now you don't take your sacred sticks to the ski school rental shop to be run through a fucking extruder followed by a base thinning massacre grind.
You take you skis, particularly a nice pair of DPS, to a GOOD tech with a good machine who knows the difference between repatterning your base or cleaning it up a touch after a base weld.
So maybe this base grind refresh is not an arduous chore, extra cost, or unnecessary wear and tear. Maybe it is SOP and you get the bonus of not having to wax inbetween...
Well said. I don't think many of my skis make it more than 30 days without enough of an impact to merit a light grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
You can repair a base without needing to grind it afterwards. It may not look as pretty compared to having a machine grind, but you can do a base weld repair by hand, then flatten by hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Damn you take better care of your skis than me. If I grind more than 2 times in the time I own a ski it's a lot. I ski at least 50 days a season. Alta is rocky. I seem to avoid them for most part. Superficial scratches mostly, and the very rare coreshot. Maybe I'm just not a hard enough skier. [emoji3]Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
If I ground my skis every 30 days, no matter how good the tech (and I know great ones) I'd have no bases in under 2 seasons. That's crazy talk.
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so 3 base grinds = no base for you? that make no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidog
Seriously.... Maybe his tech really sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
Maybe I am harder on my gear than you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidog
NEED a base grind after repair? Do you chisel the extra ptex off?
My $.02 after listening to the podcast: I would compare this product to a chemical version of hotboxxing skis. The ceramic coating analogy is close but is more of a surface bonded product than a penetrative one. It makes sense if you just want to ski and not bother with waxing. You can top the product with temp specific wax and the guys claim it is better than waxing untreated skis. They mention that the product bonds to the entire thickness of the base and that is why a grind will "refresh" the performance. You might be able to scotch brite the base to get a similar effect, but they didn't mention it.
It sounds legit and there is science and a real scientist behind it. I could see a real benefit to every day skiers and snowboarders who don't want to tune their gear. I like tuning and having the right wax for the day. I still would consider this product for getting the job done in standard midwinter conditions with the expectation of applying green or yellow when needed. I'll wait and see how the rollout goes. Good luck to DPS.
I get consistently clean and smooth base finishes after p-texing (either by hand or gun using harder base repair material) by removing the surplus plastic with a curved tooth panzer body file. With enough experience you can get a very good finish after this process but optimally, one follows by then waxing the ski...the waxing helps pump a bit of extra heat into the base repair and further seals/blends it into the base. I usually do a pass or two with the iron, then work around the repair to avoid promoting excessive heat penetration and melting the ptex. Post cooling and wax scrape, base usually ends up looking close to factory fresh. Definitely no need to grind the base.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
Attachment 215085
I have to laugh and shake my head.
Forever, people have rationalized rarely waxing or going super cheap with crappy wax (or reuse wax) to 'save money' (ie pennies in a super expensive sport and lifestyle choice). Now you can spend a ton on not waxing and stress out about finding a reliable base grind somewhere. Easy for some, not for many. All while potentially not getting the best performance out of your expensive gear. Kind of like buying an AWD or 4x4 vehicle with under inflated all season tires to drive on snow and icy roads.
Sounds like there will eventually be a need for a Grind your own Fucking Skis thread in the future due to major screw ups and grinds through the cores on less than flat skis and thin bases. A few passes with a Ski Visions Base Flattener & Structuring Tool, light sanding or base filing with a cross cut or body file, even a coarse file, (as mentioned above) could suffice vs a base grind for some.
I have skis with over a hundred days on them. They have never seen machine grind are running great and easily tweaked for current conditions with minimal effort.
https://youtu.be/C5c82L7o2rA
did i mention im a 1%erQuote:
Originally Posted by nest
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...psv9xxpork.jpg
or maybe, just maybe them extra 100 to 150 inches of snow in the satch covers more stuffsQuote:
Originally Posted by Summit
i have
lotus 120 with over 200 days on em that have never been stone ground yet
and an assload of wax cycles most of which i was paid to do
so i doubts im gonna pay for snake oil sauce
Maybe a little exaggerated but I think you see my point. How many base grinds you figure you get before one decent rock hit is to the core? 5? 6? Seems like some do it yearly some don't. I fall into the latter camp. This stuff might be great for the 10 day a year skier, but the folks who ski 50+ days well? Jury is still out.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
My tech is pretty good. Andy at Peruvian. I think more than a few of you know him.
SFB is on here. I've got nearly 200 days on my shoguns 1 grind since they were unwrapped new.
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No doubt the more exposed rocks are the biggest reason I'm harder on gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
If I still worked in a shop waxing on the clock, yea I wouldn't pay either. I have a bench in the garage, so maybe maybe not.
Wouldn’t that tool do the same thing as a base grind with respect to refreshing this product’s effectiveness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
I'd imagine soQuote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
I'm curious if the brillo pad idea would work well enough
We need more info on how this product actually affects the base and what is actually happening in the process that requires a "refresh" Is it ptex hairs or is the permanent treatment worn away or....?
I would think so, with these exceptions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
1) You can do it at your convenience in minutes and not have to coordinate and run around for a grind AND worry about costs, quality and depth on MULTIPLE skis.
2) You can micro manage how much material you remove for base flattening as well as freshening structure.
3) Those who think they can tell the difference between a linear structure vs the array of machine grind options may not like this option. In powder I can't imagine someone could truly tell the difference.
4) You can cross hatch with the tool if you are very careful and take your time.
5) You can adjust the structure depending on conditions in minutes (think warm spells then back to cold spells, back to warm, etc).
6) It is also a 'go to tool' for smoothing out base repairs and restructuring.
7) Buy it once for a lifetime if you maintain and/or replace stones.
#savethewaxindustry
It’s too bad AlpineZone isn’t still around to put up a 1,000-page thread on this
Thanks for the link. 100 +/- bucks for a lifetime of flat bases and structuring? Sold. Good group buy for a crew of buddies. Always frustrating buying new boards and having to get em ground before leaving the shop due to railed bases. Seems like every season I'm checking a buddy's new boards' bases with a true bar and advising a flatting grind after they hate their new skis 'cause their hooky in crust and hard snow due to edge high bases; usually coinciding with lack of detune in tips and tails after pulling them out of the wrapper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord
Re: wax in the watershed: What happens to the stuff that is ground off the base? Does that just go in the garbage?
These whippersnappers over on NS did some nice work getting some insight. Marshall where you at?
http://www.newschoolers.com/forum/th...ax-revolution-
^^^ "We can calculate that the amount of fluoro left on the mountain after ten million
skier/snowboarder visits will be, at most, 38 pounds.* To put this number into perspective, 38
pounds of fluoro, in the form of discarded microwave popcorn bags, are thrown into trash bins
around America every 15 minutes.** Clearly, the environmental impact of the fluoro in snow
waxes is miniscule and, in comparison with the very real hazards endangering our planet from
other sources, it is insignificant."
Just as I suspected.
I never understood that "feel good" bullshit, but the real danger from fluoro is exposure during application, but you basically need to be waxing thousands of skis on a closet before your mind starts to slip. I emailed and asked for an MSDS... no reply, probably because they're rolling around in the extra $70k they picked up and don't give a fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ
Got to give the footwear proofer a try!Quote:
Originally Posted by geo039
https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/ca...er-p2719.aspx/
They lost me at (kickstarter) kids these days...
nooskoolers is smarties
Im with ya there. Waxing skis is a relaxing activity that gets the juices flowing for the next session anyways. I see no need to spend a shitload on some new gimmick when the tried and true method that costs me less than $20 a season works. I’ll spend the rest on beer and greens.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
Has there been any mention of how skin adhesives will react with this new compound? Just curious if that’ll fuck up the finish.
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It's because they had so much debt. I'm not sure if Logan Imlach (former skier with Level 1 and Armada Engineer) uses TGR forums, but he quite a lot to say about that on Newschoolers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
They specifically mention a lack of skin glue contamination being a benefit. They did not mention any diminished skin adhesion.Quote:
Originally Posted by homebrewd
Where exactly are we getting this info that this stuff *requires* a base grind every ~30 ski days to maintain effectiveness? It sounds like that's an interpretation based on the promo email that went around, and conflicts with everything else. Can someone just paste the email text here?
The podcast and that pdf make it sound more like a base grind doesn't diminish the effectiveness because the stuff is throughout the depth of the base. They say you will probably still want base grinds as normal for the same reasons you always did, i.e. refreshing structure.
Ah got it thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by skibum93
So.... if this is great, will DPS and other brands ship with this factory installed in bases? I would think they could get this deeper into bases at the factory, maybe even vacuum bag them when applying the way we used to do with carbon/Kevlar kayaks.... stronger and lighter when the resin is permeated.
If it’s not worth putting into skis at the shop.... why would I think this is anything other than an add on sale?
got an update from kickstarter:
Popular Question About Stonegrinding
Posted by Alex Hunt (Collaborator)
We've received a number of questions regarding the necessity of stone grinding a Phantomed base. Here's some clarification:
Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material, whether it’s been Phantomed or not, will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts to take its toll; a stone grind will freshen the visual appearance to new. However, to clarify any prior confusion: stone grinding is NOT required on a Phantomed base at any prescribed interval. Stone grinding is generally simply a good idea, irrespective of Phantom, to remove hair and dirt, and place a fresh structure on your ski or snowboard. Our test groups in New Zealand and Chile ran entire seasons, skiing practically everyday, without new stone grinds. In both climates, after months on snow, there was no noticeable drop in Phantom performance – only the visual appearance of the base.
Um, sure, I guess. Patent search was slick, but like half of them say they've never waxed their skis/wax is useless (one even calls it a scam). WTF, have they never skied in well-below-zero weather or warm weather, when a ski that's dry or has the wrong wax becomes basically a snowshoe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
AFA fluoro goes: anyone here use that? I thought it was pretty much only racers. I don't: it's way more $$$, the fumes are toxic (like, you really should wear a respirator when it's on the iron), and I seriously doubt I'd ever notice the ~1% increase in speed.
HAIR?!? Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by jondrums
If only I could stone-grind my skins
Yeah, base hairs, snow is abrasive.Quote:
Originally Posted by skizix
I only use fluoro on race skis, other than cheap low fluoro bulk wax.
But all of the skis I take care of get hit with a steel brush followed by several passes with a purple scotchbrite to refresh the ski structure and remove base hairs. That and the occasional pass with a burnished metal scraper, are enough to not need a base grind until more serious work to the base is needed.
If the Tx really works... yeah it'd b nice if the skis start coming pre-treated. Saturating a base with wax is a pretty inefficient process.