time for a new car...

sorry to throw a monkey wrench in here, but you're kind of comparing apples to oranges w/ the v50 and the x3. you should give the 325xi (sedan or wagon) a ride as well and compare that to the v50, probably around the same price and besides the clearance issues, a better ride than the x3. that said i'm a volvo traditionalist and do really like the look of the v50. the design is 100% volvo's and it is ford infact that's lifted the design and is now using a dumbed down version of the platform for the new focus that is supposed to be just about the best small car ever.

for volvo lovers, check out their concept car site. i really can't wait till the ACC2 comes out, sweetness.

http://www.volvocars.com/AboutVolvo/conceptlab/

also another major consideration, the X5 had the highest crash rating ever from the insurance institue for highway safety, that counts huge in my book. the V50 also got a stellar rating (or course, it's a volvo), but sometimes, unfortunately w/ so many large trucks around, it's as much a matter of mass as anything.

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Originally Posted by Monique

A 2001 BMW X5 3.0 with 30,000 miles might squeak in around your price range, and most have 100,000 mile warranties. I bought mine used two years ago, after a nasty accident that totaled another rig. The biggest selling point for me at that time was the X5's stellar safety ratings. .

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Originally Posted by FollowMe

If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd guess that the "commercial" vehicle tax deduction (if there is such a thing), is probably limited to "work related stuff".

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Someone posted a link earlier in the thread to the details of what you need to do to make this work, but yes, I believe it was a minimum of 50% work related, etc.

From what people were telling me at work (still need to check w/my accountant), you can deduct the full cost of lease payments plus mileage anyway for what I'm doing, so the way I'm understanding it at the moment it would work out regardless.

And I agree - I went from apples to oranges. I didn't really mean to, but I went to the Volvo dealer and they don't have an equivalent to the Murano/X3, they just have an equivalent to the X5. Which I think I'm going to call out of the price range and not test drive so I'm not tempted... I can go back and check out the BMW wagon though. I don't think Nissan has an equivalent to that style.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

I can go back and check out the BMW wagon though.

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Do it. BMW is coming out with their new 3 series for '06, so you can probably get some great deals on the '05 sedans and wagons.

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

sorry to throw a monkey wrench in here, but you're kind of comparing apples to oranges w/ the v50 and the x3. you should give the 325xi (sedan or wagon) a ride as well and compare that to the v50, probably around the same price and besides the clearance issues, a better ride than the x3. that said i'm a volvo traditionalist and do really like the look of the v50. the design is 100% volvo's and it is ford infact that's lifted the design and is now using a dumbed down version of the platform for the new focus that is supposed to be just about the best small car ever.

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The c1/p1 platform (S40/V50/Mazda3) was a Ford/Volvo/Mazda collaboration. It ain't 100% Volvo. The BMW xDrive system (525xi, 530xi, x3, X5) allows full range of power/torque change front to rear. Good for snow. 325xi is less trick, less nice for snow.

Definitely look at the Inifiniti/Lexus AWD sedans

Nice vehicles...and the right one is in the lead!!

Just be careful with their lease talk - don't take any crap. A lease is merely a loan with a defined purchase price, end value of the car (buy out) and interest rate - and you pay the interest and enough principle each month to get the loan from the purchase price to the end value at the end of the lease. So make sure you know all the lease terms and negotiate a low purchase price, a high end value (this may be set based on the annual milage - not sure) and a low interest rate. To give you a frame of reference if the car is $32k - $4k trade in (so $27k) with an end of lease buy out of $18k, 30 month lease at 5% your monthly payment would be $430.29....this goes up roughly $30 a month for each $1000 higher purchase or lower end of lease value - and visa versa. Also, you can get a lease from other sources besides the dealer - they're not as common as they were in the 90's though.

Hopefully I didn't confuse - I have that effect on people! Good luck...

I agree with Corky. Watch out for the leasing deal. That is an easy way for them to get you to pay full retail for the vehicle. I mean whats the difference between 360/month and 390/month? If I were you I would get preapproval from a bank or credit union with a low interest rate to buy a car and go in there prepared to write a check for the vehicle. Don't discuss monthly payments. Discuss purchase price. Go armed with print outs from edmunds.com etc. Then once you nail down the purchase price, then say "ok, what if I wanted to lease this vehicle at this price?"

Also the tax benefits exist if you buy the vehicle too. You get to depreciate the vehicle (which would be substantial in the first years and less so in the future) and get to write off a good portion of you payments (I think the interest component) Also, if you itemize deductions don't forget to write off the sales tax that you paid for the vehicle.

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Originally Posted by Monique

If you're thinking about the X3 don't test drive the X5 because there's no turning back once you do...BTW the X5 weighs 6005 lbs which means it qualifies for George Effing W Bush's commercial vehicle tax deduction. Basically I'm deducting about a $10k per year depreciation and so driving it for the net cost of a car 1/2 to 2/3 the price. I did hear a rumor that particular deduction's going away, though. Good luck--

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it is gone(on SUV's). and it was a clinton deduction too (up to $25K). Bush's plan upped it to $100K for two years.

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Originally Posted by Corky

Nice vehicles...and the right one is in the lead!!

Just be careful with their lease talk - don't take any crap. A lease is merely a loan with a defined purchase price, end value of the car (buy out) and interest rate - and you pay the interest and enough principle each month to get the loan from the purchase price to the end value at the end of the lease. So make sure you know all the lease terms and negotiate a low purchase price, a high end value (this may be set based on the annual milage - not sure) and a low interest rate. To give you a frame of reference if the car is $32k - $4k trade in (so $27k) with an end of lease buy out of $18k, 30 month lease at 5% your monthly payment would be $430.29....this goes up roughly $30 a month for each $1000 higher purchase or lower end of lease value - and visa versa. Also, you can get a lease from other sources besides the dealer - they're not as common as they were in the 90's though.

Hopefully I didn't confuse - I have that effect on people! Good luck...

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Car dealer hater people like you and me. When you want to talk price the proper words are, "I need to talk to your finance manager". The car dealers' business model is honestly built around the fact that people have no idea about personal finance. Don't sign anything without reading it fully, refuse to sign what you don't understand, ask to take the paperwork home to review etc. Also, the auto broker suggestion is dead on. Unless you think who have significantly better than average negotianting skills, the $500-$1000 is well spent.

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Originally Posted by Superstar Punani

That's a sweet deduction! Do you need to use it for work-related stuff, or can you just buy that, and add it to your itemized deductions?

I thought about getting one but not sure how it would hold up to 35k miles / year driving, with Bring My Wallet maintenance costs.

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I'm self employed so that's why it works. If the deduction has disappeared I hope it's effective '05 not '04 or I'm screwed! In terms of maintenance costs, yeah an oil change costs about $100 but it's synthetic oil so you only do it every 12,000 to 15,000 miles (instead of $30-50 every 3,000 miles). So far it hasn't been bad at all (edit for jinx). I pile the miles on as well so my one concern is ending up in three years with a car whose theoretical resale value is $15,000 but has 150,000 miles on it so no one will touch it. But for my situation the tax implications make it all work out in the end regardless.

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Originally Posted by Monique

In terms of maintenance costs, yeah an oil change costs about $100 but it's synthetic oil so you only do it every 12,000 to 15,000 miles (instead of $30-50 every 3,000 miles).

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BMW also has free scheduled maintenance for 4 years or 50,000 miles.

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Originally Posted by mcsquared

I agree with Corky. Watch out for the leasing deal. That is an easy way for them to get you to pay full retail for the vehicle.

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Leasing is all over the map. When I was leasing, FYI, my favorite dealer starts at the dealer cost, not the retail, determines the residual, and works out the payment from there (based on some effective interest rate). At the end of the term there's only the residual -- no milage or other extra charges. If the actual value is lower then I pay the difference. If it's higher then I get a cheque. The vehicle is usually presold since there's a good list of buyers looking for off lease vehicles.

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Originally Posted by ulty_guy

for volvo lovers, check out their concept car site. i really can't wait till the ACC2 comes out, sweetness.

http://www.volvocars.com/AboutVolvo/conceptlab/

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So, I take it it's a V50-based XC? I really like it myself. Can't say I care for the styling of the current V-70XC, I liked the 97-00 models better.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

Someone posted a link earlier in the thread to the details of what you need to do to make this work, but yes, I believe it was a minimum of 50% work related, etc.

From what people were telling me at work (still need to check w/my accountant), you can deduct the full cost of lease payments plus mileage anyway for what I'm doing, so the way I'm understanding it at the moment it would work out regardless.

And I agree - I went from apples to oranges. I didn't really mean to, but I went to the Volvo dealer and they don't have an equivalent to the Murano/X3, they just have an equivalent to the X5. Which I think I'm going to call out of the price range and not test drive so I'm not tempted... I can go back and check out the BMW wagon though. I don't think Nissan has an equivalent to that style.

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make sure you stick to a two year or three year lease. four and five year leases make it extremely easy to get to your payment.

one of my friends just leased a Murano. $1500 due at signing. 3yr/36000 lease. he bought the wearcare option(don't know what Nissan calls it). his payment is @ $375. I gave him an X-Plan pin and he couldn't do better with Volvo XC70.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

The c1/p1 platform (S40/V50/Mazda3) was a Ford/Volvo/Mazda collaboration. It ain't 100% Volvo.

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right you are, whoops.

The "advantage" of a lease is simple: You only pay for what you use in the car. If you like it - keep it. If you don't - hand the keys back at the end. (You're not married to the car as you are on a traditional "buy".)


Personally, I drive WAAAY too many miles a year to make a lease sensible. Of course, if a *payment* is your biggest concern, then a lease is certainly an option worth exploring. If you drive the "typical" 12000-18000 miles a year, then you can do quite well with a lease.

If you prefer to BUY the car, then remember you can usually stretch your payments out to 72mos. Sometimes it can make the difference in what you're comfortable with in terms of a monthly payment.

FWIW, AG - If you need info on Toyotas, shoot me a PM. I'd be happy to get you whatever info you need as far as pricing, programs, etc.

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Originally Posted by EPSkis

If you prefer to BUY the car, then remember you can usually stretch your payments out to 72mos. Sometimes it can make the difference in what you're comfortable with in terms of a monthly payment.

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or the salesman selling the car. Come on EP, your smart enough to know that this is a sucker bet. Why would you intentially go upside down on a asset? You can never sell a vehicle financed for 6yrs for more that you owe. The financing costs are rediculous. Also, your insurance pays blue book not what you owe in the event of a wreck.

Foggy's top 3 personal finance errors:

1. Not having a budget/financial plan/goals, no matter how simple. How do you know if you are winning or losing with out keeping score.
2. Not understanding the difference between savings and investments. Know your risk/reward paradigm.
3. Poor financing decisions. Long term auto loans and credit card debt are the two biggest culprits.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

or the salesman selling the car. Come on EP, your smart enough to know that this is a sucker bet. Why would you intentially go upside down on a asset? You can never sell a vehicle financed for 6yrs for more that you owe. The financing costs are rediculous. Also, your insurance pays blue book not what you owe in the event of a wreck.

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Word! Never finance for longer than 5 years!

As I said - it's an option for those people that are concerned about a monthly payment. I'm not sure where "salesman" fits into that conversation, but just so I understand you two:

You're against making 12 more payments, regardless of interest rate or the difference it makes in your payments?

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Word! Never finance for longer than 5 years!

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So how come no one balks at mortgaging a house for 30 years? Yes, obviously a house involves a much higher monthly payment in general, but it's the same thing. Yes, you'll pay a lot less interest with a 15 year loan, but if you can't afford to make the higher monthly payment it's a moot point.

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Originally Posted by The AD

So how come no one balks at mortgaging a house for 30 years? Yes, obviously a house involves a much higher monthly payment in general, but it's the same thing. Yes, you'll pay a lot less interest with a 15 year loan, but if you can't afford to make the higher monthly payment it's a moot point.

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The whole real estate financing model in build on the theory of an appreciating asset. A automobile is a depeciating asset. Create an Excel spreadsheet with the residual value of the car (what you could sell it for) in one column and what you'd need to pay to get out of your loan (outstanding principle) in the other. With low down 5 and 6 year loans, it take quite some time to get equity in the vechicle. With almost all types of mortgages (I/O, option ARMs excluded), you have equity instantly. That's the equity piece.

Now make another Excel spreadsheet detailing the total finance cost (gross interest paid) for 3-6yr loans. That's an opportunity cost, you could use that money to pay down your mortgage, save for college etc.

And that's without getting into the whole "living beyond your means" thing. I'm a strong beleiver in the principal that our society confuses want and needs. We drive cars that are too expensive, live in houses that are too big, and generally waste our money in the capital machine. That's why we are married to our jobs, will most likely never retire early and give ourselves ulcers once a month a bill paying tip [/side bar].

AG, I know you and Craig are smart as shit and will never make these mistakes. I look forward to seeing your pimp ride in the mutha fucking front row

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Originally Posted by The AD

So how come no one balks at mortgaging a house for 30 years? Yes, obviously a house involves a much higher monthly payment in general, but it's the same thing. Yes, you'll pay a lot less interest with a 15 year loan, but if you can't afford to make the higher monthly payment it's a moot point.

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This is a good point, especially since the interest cost involved in a mortgage involves a lot more money than a car loan.

However...you can buy a used car for cash. It's a lot harder, if not impossible, for most people to pay for a house with cash.

When I was buying my Outback I thought, ok, I can pay this used car off in three years. Then I'll have $x/mo more in my pocket and I'll have a car. You have leeway to balance how much pain per month and how long the pain will last vs. how much car you're buying.

With the condo, it was more "ok, this is the cheapest thing in the state (MA) we can find that doesn't involve actually living in squalor. How do we finance it?" It's either rent or get a 30yr. mortgage, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground...at least for us.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

The whole real estate financing model in build on the theory of an appreciating asset. A automobile is a depeciating asset.[/B]

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OK, point taken. I guess the bottom line with a car is if you can't afford the payment for a five year (or less) loan, you should buy a cheaper car.

Take care that if you lease you know what mileage you can do, and what it will cost you if you exceed it. I could never lease a car that I intended to return as I put way to many miles on in a year. But the last car I leased I had no intention of turning in, made sure the buyout was low, took a 3 year lease and bought the car out at the end. My payments were the same as financing but I could write the whole lease payment off, where-as if I had purchased the car I could only write depreciation off so a slower write-off. And then I sold the car back to myself for the buy-out value and have driven it ever since.

Good advice: Buy the most house you can afford, and drive the least car you're willing to.

1999 A4 Avant 112k: Bad headlight bulbs (0-70k), blown water pump (70k), fried driver door sensor (80k, $500 to fix). Other than that, it's been a great car, best I've ever owned. My toyota truck and Corolla are still running, but there's no comparison for how comfy my left nut feels couched in the Audi.

Next? With Audi downgrading their warranty, I'm looking really closely at the Volvo V50 T5 w/AWD and stick.

If Infiniti offered a stick on the FX35, I might get one of those. But I really want a stick.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

If Infiniti offered a stick on the FX35, I might get one of those. But I really want a stick.

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I know what you mean. Your left nut just can't feel comfy without a stick next to it.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

1999 A4 Avant 112k: Bad headlight bulbs (0-70k), blown water pump (70k), fried driver door sensor (80k, $500 to fix). Other than that, it's been a great car, best I've ever owned. My toyota truck and Corolla are still running, but there's no comparison for how comfy my left nut feels couched in the Audi.

Next? With Audi downgrading their warranty, I'm looking really closely at the Volvo V50 T5 w/AWD and stick.

If Infiniti offered a stick on the FX35, I might get one of those. But I really want a stick.

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Yesterday I went and test drove a Volvo w/a stick (same engine, not a wagon) and then the Subaru Legacy XT Limited back to back. And I've gotta say, the Subaru is better - more powerful, faster, handles better (well, I guess it should - it has more hp/torque, weighs less, etc). It just doesn't look as sweet and the seats aren't as comfy. But it's 4k less with all the same options. I'd just be back w/my subaru maintenance guys that I occasionally want to kick in the head.

And in other news my accountant says he's yet to do taxes for a realtor who drove under 20k miles - most are a lot higher. And since I'm new, I may think I'm going to drive less than 15k, but how the hell do I know right now... He ran a bunch of hypothetical numbers and he says it would make more sense to buy. But that brings the payment up a bunch. I'm just sitting here trying to estimate my mileage, and even w/60 trips a year to Alta (which would be the upper limit considering how many times I catch a ride w/Mr.AG), going home to office 2x/day every workday (which I don't do everyday), and 50 miles of running around a day (which is that hard part to guess), I get 16,440 miles a year. It won't ever go on a trip or anything, because we have the truck for that. But he said he sees a minimum of 20k miles a year for all the realtors he does taxes for. And then just deducting mileage, you're deducting more than the lease payments would be and you can't do both.

Hmmm.... This is a pain in the ass. And I also need to set up an S-Corp so I don't have to pay self employment taxes. Which is a whole other pain in the ass.

But in better news... I'm off to a listing appointment. :D And then going to ride Mueller Park tonight.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

Yesterday I went and test drove a Volvo w/a stick (same engine, not a wagon) and then the Subaru Legacy XT Limited back to back. And I've gotta say, the Subaru is better - more powerful, faster, handles better (well, I guess it should - it has more hp/torque, weighs less, etc). .

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Was that the V50 T5 215 hp AWD?

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Was that the V50 T5 215 hp AWD?

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It must have been the S40 since she said it wasn't a wagon, but I'm curious too if it was the T5, because I test drove that car and it had lots of power.

And AG, what's the deal with the s-corp? My wife is self-employed and has to pay a ton in taxes. I'm definitely interested in anything that could reduce this.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

the V50 T5 215 hp AWD?

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WTF? You tech people and your jargony ways...

Well, the ring buffer is allocated in GART USWC which starts 0x8000 bytes from the base of the page table. Whether the corruption in the IB occurred as a result of a thread writing into it or some other GART corruption is not yet known.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Was that the V50 T5 215 hp AWD?

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I test drove an S40, but it's the S40 T5 218 hp AWD. (The V50 is also 218 hp according to their website) The sales guys said they're the same car with different styling (not a wagon). The subaru 2.5 XT LTD is also a turbo but w/250hp and the clutch just felt better. More smooth less on/off feeling. And supposedly (according to the subaru guy) Subaru's AWD is better because Volvo, BMW, etc are all using a system where the AWD only activates when a front tire slips. Subaru's is active all the time so you don't need to slip in the first place. And if you get a computer problem, the AWD would go out - in the Subaru it's mechanical, so it can't go out.

Go try them out and tell me what you think. I was really rooting for the Volvo, so I was surprised.

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Originally Posted by The AD

It must have been the S40 since she said it wasn't a wagon, but I'm curious too if it was the T5, because I test drove that car and it had lots of power.

And AG, what's the deal with the s-corp? My wife is self-employed and has to pay a ton in taxes. I'm definitely interested in anything that could reduce this.

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It DID have lots of power - I'm not saying it was bad AT ALL. The subaru just had a little more and was smoother shifting. I still really like the Volvo a LOT, but am having a hard time justifying more money for less power and the same options - just a prettier car with extra comfy seats.

No self employment taxes (which is an extra 15.3% over federal and state) if you're an S-corp. Costs a couple hundred bucks to set everything up, and you break even if you make $10,000. If you made $50,000, you'd save more like $4,000. What they do is divide your income into stuff you're putting on a W-2 (to yourself) and the rest goes to you as a dividend, at about a 2/5 ratio. So you're only paying on 2/5 of it instead of 100% of it. Talk to your tax guy and they can set it up and do all the paperwork - you have to file quarterly and there's a whole list of things to file - but even paying someone to do it, you're saving thousands in taxes.

Plus, since you're a corporation, if someone sues you, it's a limited liability situation and they can't go after your personal assets (i.e. your house), just company assets.

I have no time to test drive. I'm chained to a bunch of compoopers and they've fired 1 of our team of 3.

I'm going to drive the Audi until it dies, then I'll be forced to go shop for a car. Hopefully, I'll have established my vacuum cleaner walking and flexibility consortium by then.

Cars are so bizarre. I have so many Subie devotee friends, yet there's a good number of Subie maintenance horror stories too. Same for Audi. And religion. And politics. And sex.

It's probably a good idea to analyze the reliability statistics and hopefully probability will smile on the choice.

Is the T5 a turbo? I'm leery of turbos. Sort of like a boob job on an engine.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

...just a prettier X with extra comfy seats.

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I've always considered that a lovely algebra.

[QUOTE=altagirl]Yesterday I went and test drove a Volvo w/a stick (same engine, not a wagon) and then the Subaru Legacy XT Limited back to back. And I've gotta say, the Subaru is better - more powerful, faster, handles better (well, I guess it should - it has more hp/torque, weighs less, etc).[QUOTE]

like i said on page one.....just pull the trigger on the new Suby. And, just buy it. Trade your old one in, and get the 0% financing from Subaru if you can. Its the way to go hands down: powerful, great all weather car, and looks nice when cleaned up for your clients.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I've always considered that a lovely algebra.

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Is that algebra a push-up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Is the T5 a turbo? I'm leery of turbos. Sort of like a boob job on an engine.

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Yep.

"The V50 T5 and T5 AWD offers a transversely mounted, 2.5-liter, 5-cylinder turbocharged engine with 218 hp"

The Subaru guys swear they never have problems w/the turbo. (And yeah, what else are they going to say, but they could be selling me on the 3.0 engine that's just as much or more money, I guess). They just said that if you intend to tow much of anything you want the 3.0 instead. But that's what the truck is for...

Anyway, I think most Volvos are turbo unless you get one of the odd models like the 4.4L model of the XC90.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I've always considered that a lovely algebra.

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BWA!




Sorry you're chained to a desk. The finances are a headache, but the test driving is a blast.