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We just had 10 feet of new snow in two weeks followed by high winds and a 40+ degree temperature gradient between the bottom of the snowpack and ambient temperature for almost another week. Pretty sure that is what has been causing death lately. You step onto something that is hollow at the bottom 2-4' and you'll likely get bitten.Quote:
Originally Posted by icelanticskier
Tragic for these guys' friends and family. Take care out there, shit can turn bad so fast.
I can only guess that they thought they could piece together a safe route in the trees up the side. From the photos it looks like one could be deceived into thinking that trees on the side meant safety.
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword...n_colorado.php
This article mentions that two "two of the skiers were uninjured, because they were above both avalanches."
I've been out a couple days this weekend and while staying low-angle in the trees I did find it difficult to get anything to release on steeper test slopes which is typical of Colorado mid winter deep instability. The difficulty of releasing deep slab instability in pits or on test slopes can create a false sense of security because it is hard to get anything to move. The problem is that your consequence is very high IF you DO trigger the deep instability.
nah, people are causing death lately. the warnings have been there 10 fold. brains have been turned off is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaG
rog
No, like Rog sez, it's people going out into known crazy conditions and triggering shit that causes death. Pinner said well in another thread "If you tickle the dragons nuts, don't be surprised if he spooges on your face"Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaG
This pseudo political discussion of how to make brain damage contagious and available to the masses might just be the best we can do, Although I like rog's suggestion of staying low...
In that link is a link to a CBS news story, and I don't know why I watch that crap, it pisses me off so. The sheriff says "they all were wearing beepers, it's just unfortunate this happened" like it was a freak accident. The story also refers to them as "cross country skiers" and out "cross country skiing". That seems like a terribly incorrect designation.Quote:
Originally Posted by smitchell333
Danno something from Jesus Christ would be appropriate-Nao?
Any statistics?
how many Experienced VS inexperienced/Little to no real BC time, avalanche deaths?
maybe read shredgnar's post above. The real world is a lot more complicated than your simple question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodneyyee
and if you haven't read the TAR article on Sheep Creek that Bunion linked on page 2 you should. We all should.
not sure how this thread got so sideways, but vibes to the family/friends/SAR/etc who were hit by this incident.
Sideways? It followed the usual recipe. . .
rumor
confirmed rumor
vibes
MMQ
Debate over the appropriateness of MMQ
More MMQ
Questioning how the thread went to shit
Then a few more vibes and MMQ until this thread is rendered obsolete by the next uncovered slab when the entire process repeats itself with minor variations (i.e references to Darwinism if the victim was a sledder, etc.)
We do a disservice to the dead everytime we start one of these goddamn threads..
Terrain is the constant. Snowpack is the variable. We are the most interesting operative in the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by totaliboard
Sent from my XT1030 using TGR Forums
Thanks, Captain Fucking Obvious. I'd love to tour with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by La Vaina Ajena
that's what i thought.
rog
Is it really? Thought it was pretty obvious it was an anecdotal observation, but is it really that bold? Seems very common to me for people to choose safe zones that while most surely safe from any slides that will probably happen, are not safe from the largest slides that have the potential of happening on a given day. I see it all the time, and when you hear about multiple experienced people getting buried it seems like the only explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieMonster
There are some things with avies that you need to be an 'expert' to really understand, snow science, etc. Then there are a lot of things that you really only need to be aware and have common sense. Route selection uphill and down to utilize safe zones is really pretty obvious, you just have to always be thinking to yourself, what is the absolute worst biggest deadliest slide that could possibly happen today, and plan according to THAT chance, not to what size slide seems likely if it were to slide.
Yea, anecdotally, it seems to be one of the most common mistakes I see people making, yea, this is a safe zone.
I think the dead are past giving a fuck about the tgr forums, if they even did in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeStrummer
tar article was good
thanks
CAIC report is up
Question for 911 operators/SAR/1st responders: Is there any ability to text 911? There are many areas where I ski that might support a text message in case of emergency, but a phone conversation would be garbled at best. The write-up describes this scenario and while it had no effect on the outcome, one could see a scenario where it could.
That report is strong evidence for the fact that snowpits don't tell you everything. They certainly don't tell you where the weakspots in a slope are. So, they dug a pit, and found it hard to get the snow to fail. but the pit just gives a general snowpack profile for that aspect/elevation. Taking that general snapshot and applying it to the entire slope, as if the entire thing is homogenous, is a mistake.
The report also highlights something that has been discussed a lot lately, the "safe zone" versus what is really just a "safer zone". All 7 people got slid because they were only using a safer zone.
It's coming in the future (like, perhaps next season, but you'll have to verify where you are):Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
http://www.fcc.gov/text-to-911
Far too many people use a non-responsive pit to justify a "go" decision when everything else points to no-go. I'm not seeing it in the report, but I'm pretty sure the rating was at least considerable that day. Considerable danger, on a steep above-treeline NE-aspect slope. After many feet of snow over the prior weeks. During a hudge avalanche cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Every other piece of information was screaming "no-go" but the group either didn't know, or didn't care, about anything other than what was in that pit.
Excellent point. I have often heard it said that a pit analysis should be used to make you not ski a slope (ie, to red light an otherwise green lighted plan), not used to make you ski a slope (to green light what otherwise would have been red lighted). Obviously, what happened here is the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean
Sometimes it simply doesnt matter what information is in front of you, and how loudly the evidence is screaming [directly in your face]. The human factor is prevalent and overbearing.. to the point of incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean
Most everything from the CAIC report seemed compliant to normal protocol, but reading this makes me wonder...
Events Leading to the Avalanche
A group of 7 traveled to the La Plata the trail head on Saturday February 15th, 2014. The group departed from Colorado Highway 82 at about 10:30 AM and followed the trail up the South Fork of Lake Creek. They stopped to check the function of their avalanche transceivers and to practice searching with the devices. They continued following the trail and observed several whumpfs.
During a period of heightened danger they triggered several settlements on the way up but a pit made them feel better so they descended an avalanche path exposing all 7 of them at the same time.
Ouch
This whole incident seems a bit baffling. Observed instability, hazardous forecast, exposing everyone at the same time, using a pit to justify a "go" decision, I don't get it. One member of their party had no rescue gear?! Not that it really matters given the choices they made, but really? I'm sorry for their loss but this one really has me scratching my head.
They always seem baffling from a different perspective. Human nature is baffling to humans.
1) the slide went BIG, not just alittle slide, that thing was huge!
2) there is a false sense of security by "skiing in or close to the trees" I justify skiing something I should all the time by sticking to the trees right next to a slide path
3) how often do I turn around when the snow settles under me? 25% of the time maybe if that, the only time I turned around this year was when it "settled" over a foot under me as I entered a known wind loaded area, just because snow settles doesn't mean you should turn around
4) there was alot on the line that day, out of town guests wanted to be able to go home and say they went big in the back country of colorado
5) heard the most f'd up story the other day about the slide in keystone, asked the guy to tell it to me three times because I thought he was full of shit and I didn't hear him right, think twice, choose your friends wisely, and know where you are and what your doing just because you took a class and bought some nice gear doesn't mean shit
Probably known but whumpfing ain't "settling" of the snow, it's the collapse of a weak layer with the air pushed out like a fart. Gassy snowpack means the avy Dragon wants to take a shit on you.
I was skinning up a slope with one partner this winter and we heard a very loud and almost echo-ing sound beneath our skiis and saw cracks shoot out left and right of us and run up the gully and into the drainage next to us about 50 to 60 feet away. needless to say we turned around very quickly and cautiously.
A perfect way to end this sessionQuote:
Originally Posted by newbreak
Snowscience 101: a collapse of a weak layer is not settling it's a dragon fart. I think it's highly intuitive. I like to call it voodoo. When the little devil on one shoulder says deduction makes it safe and the angel on the other shoulder says I don think so today. Who ya gonna trust? Experience vs science. Roll the dice or discretion? Some times it's best to stop, skin up and get the heck out.
voodoo magic is my all time fave term when it comes to the mysterious world of snow.
rog
I think the forecast for that day said it was a good day to stay home and clean your garage...
Their garages are in Wisconsin. Out-of-towners are often on a different schedule than the snow.Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_smoke