gladlyQuote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
let me know what post address
Printable View
gladlyQuote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
let me know what post address
just let me know when you are in banff....
I have one issue I want to get a fitter to look at, but I'll throw it down here to get some input as I can't get to a fitter for a few weeks.
Got soloman x-waves, intuition liners and cork type heat molded orthotics made with my feet hanging off the chair. Did get the orth's made for the stock liners and just put them into the intuitions. after a month off I ski several days and right foot has pain and cramping on top, over the foot bones, half-way between the toes and front of my leg. need them buckled pretty tight to keep my ankle bones to stay in the pocket and heel down. Were shell fit by fitter at the top of 4 in vail. Left foot feels great. feels like the middle of the foot is being squeezed together. Intuitions pack out much? Thanks, plan to see a fitter soon, can be very painfull.
squeaky boots. what's a good fix? silicone spray or something of the sort. I should steer clear of petrol based lubricants right?
done and done!Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
talcum powderQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmanbob
Ski faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmanbob
Dave - thanks for this thread...
My issues (only boot related):
'05 Nordia Speedmachine 10 Shell 27; Liner 27.5 (I was told 27 & 27.5 both used 27 shell and that diff is in the liners)
Shell fit good for both length and width.
Begin day on roughly in middle hooks on all bails.
I have not generally dried my liners every night but the issue below happens first day, not just after I fail to dry.
Sometimes 133%? I get foot cramps after 1st run; this goes away after a ride or 2 if I loosen on ride up... ( I generally have not done this all day but will adopt as SOP form here out based on your soments above)
By the end of the day I'm maxed out on most buckles.
Socks are med, not "thin" (if by thin you mean PolyPro liner thin)
I have, historically, accepted the "need" to tighten over the course of a day and normal / inevitable.
Based on your baseline above I'm guessing unbuckleing will help.. any other advice?
Thanks!
sounds like a bit more padding around the heel will prevent that movement, then you can keep the toe buckles looser to prevent the cramping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crampedon
or spot heat the liners, over that instep, and compress it more.
intuitions pack (as do all liners) so also just wait a few days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmanbob
remove the mice in your boots....
can you go thru and answer the BOW questions at the top of page #1? that will help me a BUNCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatNshallow
sounds like footbeds or boots too big?
1) What is the shell fit like for length? A sharpie is snut and a pencil is just about right...
2) What is the shell fit like for width? light brushing to a wee bit of wiggle room.
3) Do you have any footebds? Fast Tech custom fit orthotic foot beds. (flat feet)So now that your boot is within a workable size range in length, width and with a supportive footbed we can go on to getting more info.
1) You just have one, thin, clean ski sock in the boots CHECK
2) You just have a sock in the boot? (no thermals, jewelry, etc) CHECK
3) Your toe nails are trimmed short? CHECK
4) They are YOUR boots and not borrowed? CHECK
5) You are just skiing in your ski boots? (not walking, driving etc)? CHECK
6) You dry your liners out at night either with a dryer or remove liners? DON'T ALWAYS DRY BUT MORNING PAIN HAPPENS REGARDLESS.
7) The left liner, the left footbed are in the left boot and this is on the left foot? YEP
8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc) NO - PRETTY MUCH NEVER DO... I'LL START.
9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? NOPE
10) Buckles are pointing to the outside? EXCEPT WHEN I CRASH
1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser? TIGHTER as the day goes on
2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? Thicker = more pain earlier and beter fit later... generally go with medium weight socks
3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?
Won't even consider skiing without my orthotics
4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? UNWEIGHTED
5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) Pain is first thing in the am and generally goes away with a couple runs... fit becomes progressively loose through day - start out <mid point and finish day almost maxed out on bails.
6) BOW on the first vs the third day? Pain- worse first day early, looseness worst by third day
7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? SAME
8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? SAME
9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? NO
10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last? NO
try a few runs without the footbeds. Yes, without ANY footbed at all. I know that you need them, but it will give me some more info. also the pain relates to the footbed somehow as it is better without any weight on the foot. (is that correct)?
are your calves tight? can you keep the foot flat on the floor, and get your knee past your big toe? (thinking that the pain might be tight calves, and as the loosen up with a few runs it getts better) try a few stretches before skiing/putting the boots on.
any better with more or less forward leen in the boots? what about stiffer or softer?
pain is not "normal" but some moving of the buckles is normal thru out the day.
Sorry for the newbie question, but does this apply to touring boots as well? Having only 2.5mm room in front of the toes and behind the heel sounds VERY tight for the uphill.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
EDIT: second question: I know I need to try on the boots, but is it true that Garmont and Dynafit have relatively low volume lasts, while Scarpa and BD are larger? I seem to never find a boot small enough, and I have tried Garmont (Megaride, Adrenalin and Radium) and Dynafit (ZZero andZzeus). Are there other low volume boot makers I should look at?
[QUOTE=arne_and;2797058]Sorry for the newbie question, but does this apply to touring boots as well? Having only 2.5mm room in front of the toes and behind the heel sounds VERY tight for the uphill.?[QUOTE]
yes, 2.5 mm is VERY tight, but the 5-15mm is a range. so most will be 5mm
25mm is WAY to much
[QUOTE=arne_and;2797058]EDIT: second question: I know I need to try on the boots, but is it true that Garmont and Dynafit have relatively low volume lasts, while Scarpa and BD are larger? I seem to never find a boot small enough, and I have tried Garmont (Megaride, Adrenalin and Radium) and Dynafit (ZZero andZzeus). Are there other low volume boot makers I should look at?[QUOTE]
no idea, I dont retail any AT boots, but radiums have fit lower volume feet that I have seen. As you said, try some on, but if you are not sure, get smaller and tighter then you think you should.
Also, what is tight to one person is not tight to someone else (like how much salt in a meal is too much, it is personal) try a bunch on and see what works for YOU
So a quick one if you have time MntLion:
Footcramps.
Radiums (24.5),Palau wraparounds (25),some thin footbeds with little arch support,heatmolded with toecap.
Foot (arch) are cramping almost instantly when I put the boots on and start walking.Depends a bit on the day. After 15mins it gets easier as the boot warms up. On the slopes (with wider skis) it starts after couple of minutes.
Cramps in the outside of the foot,up from the arch and to the ball of foot.
Hurts.Pain.Get down,open the buckles,take the lift and things are ok.
Repeat ad nauseaum.
As the garmonts own liners were totally shitty (didnt fit at all,whimpy and the toes stiching is useless) I first used the liners from my old Factors.
Thin and whimpy but they did not have any padding in the sole so I could use the surefoot footbeds.It was quite good,or as good as I can imagine.
The problem with them was that they packed out within 30 days and there were too much room in the ankle area.
Experienced the same issues with my nordica speedmachine14s but even more quickly.Tried to adjust the canting angles but not with so much success..
So. Started thinking that do I have too much stuff under the arch of foot (due to the palau wich has a lot of stuff there+the footbed with its own materiel),wich in turn results in cramping and making me even more bowlegged?
What in general causes that kind of outside/arch cramps?
Have visited some shops in lech,anton and isere,but the bootfitters have been "ooh,you dont want to buy boots from us? not intrested" attitudes.
So I would really,really appreciate if you would have some pointers where to start!
1) What is the shell fit like for length? 24-24.5 Garmont radiums. About 15-17mm behind the heel. Punched extra room myself for the toes,about 4-5mm.
2) What is the shell fit like for width? How much,not much though. I have no way of measuring if it is 2 or 3mm. Feels that it fits relatively well compared to any other rando boots.
3) Do you have any footebds? Have skied before wihtout footbeds with raichle thermoflexes (dead) and intuitions (dead),have been good. Went to surefoot and they said "get footbeds",wich cost 100€.Didnt work. Went to some other place in austria and they said "you dont need special footbeds,relatively low arch and no pronations"...
BOW with different liners then?
BOW with different footbeds (and same liner)?
(trying to reduce the number of variables in the system)
BOW if the toe buckles are loose or tighter?
do you get this pain in any other boots? (do you have alpine boots?) have you gotten this pain in other AT boots before?
BOW with some calf stretching before you get into the boots?
so you can just put on the boots, not ski them, not flex, not even stand up and you get the pain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
And thanks Mtnlion for giving a thought for this! Feeling like I would fly to fucking ToraBora to get the boots fitted if I would have some kind of solution...
sounds like boots are too narrow for you. (as the feeling gets better as the liners pack thru the day) can you keep the toe buckles 100% off (not just loose but totaly un-done?
also sounds like less support in the footbed, or more volume in the boot vertically is better. Maybe thin out the footbed and the boot board, or go without ANY footbed at all.
you are using a super thin sock?
is your foot the shape of a rugby ball?
knees over ankles ?? um, that is how most people stand up. can your knees go past your toes? more then 10cm past your toes (if you have a line from the end of your knee to the ground)
Have to check that one out,the feeling just isnt that cramming feeling,like if you shove your foot into a 95mm race boot.It "feels" it rests well with. Have to measure my foot though,nobody has ever done it..Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
Skiing with buckles open,well,with skinny skis I could do that,no problem but obviously with bigger skis I loose the touch to the skis.
Will shave the arch support away from my footbeds today and go skiing with that setup. Just to check out how things feel and get more feedbackQuote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
:confused: Actually yes. I have tiny feet compared to rest of my body.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
I have the shoesize 39 (skiboot24.5). I allso have relatively thin ankle area but thick calves.Makes the boot fitting even easier...
Hehe...... Yes,I meant my knees can go just fine the 15cm beyond my toes,I do the indian stretching daily so no probs.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
So I finally got around to measuring the shell fit of my size 25.5 Radiums. With the foot weighted I seem to have 15 mm behind the heel when the toes are lightly touching, and perhaps 1-2 mm on either side. With the foot unweighted there is several mm more space on the sides. So for a touring fit the size sounds right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlionyes, 2.5 mm is VERY tight, but the 5-15mm is a range. so most will be 5mmQuote:
Originally Posted by arne_and
25mm is WAY to much
When I try to buckle down the instep buckle (1) to the max tight setting while still not wearing liners, I have several cm free space above the foot. I can easily pull my foot out of the shell with this one buckle closed. This is with one very thin footboard in the shell. Is this normal? The problem I have when skiing with the stock Garmont liner is that the boot is too roomy over my foot, even though I have a thin footboard, a custom footbed in the liner, and crank down the two lower buckles all the way. I wear two pairs of thin socks, since one pair leaves me swimming.
I have also used the boots with Zipfit touring liners. In this case the foot is held nicely in place without tightening the buckles all the way. Also, they do not pack out during the day. The problem with these liners is that the heel pocket is so narrow that it causes massive blistering on touring. They are also a bit cold, but that is the case with the Garmont liners as well.
(1) I don't know if that is the right name, but I am referring to buckle two when starting count at the foremost buckle on my four buckle boot.
1) use a thin shim, under the footbed, in your garmont liners. this is keep the width about the same, just raise your foot up to fill the extra room
2) blisters usually are from movement, not pressure. movement happens when you have extra room. pressure is from tight. If the zipfits are tighter, then you should not be moving, so you should not get blisters, but you might get pressure points.
Thanks for your quick reply!
1) I have tried shimming both in the shell and in the liner, but when I shim enough to get low enough volume my big toes are squished and become painful. I tried the cut out the toe area of the shims, but this did not really help. I imagine this is because I have big toes pointing upwards, and even though there is room below them they still get pressurized. I did try to have the toe box of the shell increased at the local shop, but he was unable to increase them much (using a heat gun). It seems the Radium toe box design is not easy to work on with heat, lots of plastic there.
2) I would tend to agree, but there are definitely blisters on the insides of my heels from the Zipfits, and they are definitely narrow in the heel. So it seems my heels are wandering up and down, and the narrow heel gives more friction than the looser Garmonts. The Zipfits have lacing, but it was not enough. I'll try some heel retaining devices similar to the Dynafit ones on the next tour to see if that helps.
1) maybe a 1/2 or 3/4 shim might be better then a full one.
2) try other sock combos (2 thin ones?) to get the tightness, but no blisters. are the blisters on just the inside of the heel? better footbeds might help too
For both forward lean and heel lift issues, there are a few simple diagnostic exercises that can help you fix these issues.
First, standing in both boots with feet a little less than shoulder width apart, straighten your legs so that your knees are locked without lifting the heel of the boot off of the ground. Now, notice what happens. If you fall on your face, your boots have too much forward lean. Weight should be on balls of feet, heel should be unweighted but touching, or just hovering over the footbed. You should feel balanced, springy and solid. Now relax, bend your knees. Weight should now feel evenly distributed across the foot, with most concentrated under the mid-foot. Does your heel immediately bear weight, or drop some distance before it hits the footbed? If it drops, you need one of two things (or both). If your weight with knees locked was on your toes, or you fell on your face, you need less forward lean. If your weight w/ knees locked was on the balls of your feet and you felt relatively balanced, you need to put a heel lift in the boot to bring the footbed up to meet your heel.
Have a friend hold a plumb-bob next to you, against your shoulder (roughly in the middle of your body from front to back). With knees slightly flexed, shins touching the front of the boot, center mass should be over the mid-foot. With legs straight, knees locked, center mass should be over the ball of the foot.
Next, find something about 1 foot or so high to jump off of. Standing on top, jump off and land centered over and evenly on both feet, flat on the boot sole. Did your toe go BANG? If so, double check the shell fit...probably too long.
Lastly, standing on one foot, jump up and down landing and taking off as flat on the sole as possible. Do this 6-7 times rapidly on each foot. Pay attention to your foot inside the boot. Does it move a lot? Is it coming off of the footbed and falling back down a lot, or just weighting and unweighting? Do you fall over? If so, which way?
Use these simple exercises to get your boots set up so that you can do these exercises without feeling off balance or tentative. Not all boots can be easily adjusted for forward lean (kudos to dalbello for building so much adjustment into the kryps), so you may have to get creative. You can use the "canting" (actually cuff alignment, not true canting) bolts on some boots to actually straighten the cuff.
For example, I have stupid fat calves, so I had to bend back the rear of the upper cuff on my Dobies to get my fore-aft position right. Think about it, the thicker the calf, the more acute the delta between tib/fib and foot.
Get this right and you will have more energy, less fatigue on the hill, and feel more hero-like than a six pack of red bull can ever accomplish. Provided, of course, the buckles are on the outside......
Hope this helps.
Thanks, excellent input!
thanks W1, nice to not have to answer everything...
good tests for balance too.
No problem, happy to help. Folks can PM me if you want help working through the exercises...I can provide phone contact info if necessary.
BTW....my favorite footbed so far is the ALINE...and I am not affiliated with the company. Find it more dynamic and easier to align properly than any others I have used (and that is a fair amount). Plus, nice that it's way cheaper than customs. I have mine under my intuition liners, liners molded over them. There are arguments either way, but I find it works better for me.
None of this is a substitute for a GOOD bootfitter....GOOD being the operative word there. If your boot fitter puts everyone in plug boots and says you can't get enough forward lean, well, unless you are Bode or Daron, get a second opinion. Those of us that ski varied terrain, especially on newer, less traditionally-shaped skis, don't always benefit from a traditional race fit.
Happy fitting all!
So,spent last 2 days at the local molehill trying both boots with four (4) different liners and 3 different footbeds. And a carpet knife.
Result : It is dawning to me that the shells are too narrow. For 2 years,three different "bootfitters" have said that I have small and narrow feet. And I have believed them without thinking twice.And suffered. And now this guy from interwebs,MntTiger or something suggests that I actually might have width issues with my boots,instead of whatever...
Damn,I feel so damn stupid now...
Measured finally my feet and they are about the 97-100mm wide..
And,regardless of the liner,I had all the time problems in the outside of the foot,at the second buckle. Depending on the thickness of the liner,it was a allcompassing foot-torment or just bad pain/cramp at the spot.
So: After finally getting my head pulled out of my arse,I will go to the shop tomorrow and make them punch a bit more space at the second buckle.I really,really,relly hope that it would finally solve my issues...
Yes, just on the inside. The footbeds are custom (although that does not guarantee quality). I think the liner has gotten slightly wider in the heel area, probably because of the hiking, so I might get less blistering next time. I did wear tape over the heels, BTW. I might try a super thin nylon sock (yes, the type my girlfriend buys :redface:) as the inner sock next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
new footbeds with more support.......
if the blisters are on both sides = heel lift
if the blisters are on inside usually = pronation = better/custom/more supportive footbed.
www.yoursole.com
So here's the deal. Bought a pair of Tecnica Dragon 120's earlier in the season from a bootfitter, and things were OK for the first couple of days. Little bits of pain here & there, but I wanted to give the liners a little time to pack out before making any substantial changes. The original fitter did hook me up with a wedge of dense foam on the left tounge to try to re-direct shin pressure to my tibia as I've got a nasty scar that is somewhat sensitive on the outside of my left leg (for the record, this works great - 0 pain in my leg).
After they packed out, I was still having foot pain issues later in the day (neuroma??). I was getting numbness in a couple of my toes (both feet) and some NASTY cramping on the outside bottom of both feet. I'd also feel a wierd sensation shooting up my leg from the numb area of my toes for a couple of days after skiing. Went to another bootfitter for custom footbeds (original fitter put my on SuperFeet greens - new footbeds are instaprints) and a little bit of tounge & baseboard work, and the numbness is gone. My feet are actually quite comfortable as long as I a) unbuckle my bottom 2 buckles on the lift (not a problem) and b) stick to groomers & smooth surfaces (this is obviously a problem). As soon as I start skiing hard in bumps or trees, the pain in the outside bottom of both feet gets pretty intense - to the point where I'll actually consider going inside for a few minutes to take my boots off. Usually I can manage the pain by loosening my buckles on the lift ride up, but it's really annoying.
The boots are a damn near perfect shell fit - both length and width. Both the original fitter who sold me the boots, as well as the second fitter agree that the shell shape & size is right for my foot. It's possible that I need a little shell work done, but the second fitter I saw (unfortunately his shop is ~3hrs from home) was reluctant to do any shell work until we'd exhausted all other options.
Chances are I'll be heading back to see fitter #2 in the next couple of weeks, but I was just curious if you had any ideas/suggestions.
Also, any shot an aftermarket booster strap will stiffen these things up a bit? They're soft as hell for a 120 flex. I don't recall what the flex was on my old Lange Banshee's, but they were WAY stiffer than these Tecnicas.
Thanks!
Any number of things going on. See mtnlion's posts earlier about checking for width. Pain that ramps up when skiing varied snow indicates that your foot is tensing up to steer the boot more...often meaning there is slack in the fit.
After you have gone through mtnlion's checklist, run through the balance/stance exercises I posted above, and get back to us with the results. Bet you have some heel movement....
Also, sapling-sized calves, tree-trunk sized calves or average?
w/ out footbeds = no go. Mine ae fairly "thick" and without them I'd be swiming in my boots... don't get me worng - they are not too big, but with out the beds it'd be unpretty. My pain may be due to simple ovbertightening right out of the gate. . generally if
i loosen them up on the chair afte the first t2o runs I'm ok for the rest of the day.
I still ahve to tighten over the course of the day,
Calves tight? dunno. Pain is 100% in foot - like they are being squeezed to death.
I can forward flezx the shit out of my boots without heel lift - heels go back but not up.
Forward lean - can't say as I've never experimented with this and won't get a chance for another 10 months min (its bike season here now)
Stiffer / Softer = same.
I think my feet are just pussys and it takes them a couple runs to sack up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
Flexing the boots isn't a good test for dynamic heel lift or float. Did you try the things we posted before?
Also, try starting the day with much looser buckles. Does this make it better or worse? Agree on keeping in your footbeds, BTW.
Here's my answers to Mntlion's questions:
1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?
Looser is better
2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?
Same
3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?
Tried custom & trim to fit superfeet - haven't tried stock or none
4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?
skiing hurts more than standing. Unweighted is good.
5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)
Typically later in the day. Pain usually starts after i've been out for ~2hours and/or ski difficult terrain
6) BOW on the first vs the third day?
same
7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?
Worse on harder
8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?
How loose? I have tried just about everything besides gapering it and letting them flap in the breeze.
9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?
Once the outside of my foot starts to hurt, if I push down with the tips of my toes (causes 'em to flex at the 1st knuckle) pretty hard, I get some relief.
I'll do weasel1's excercises tomorrow night.
The pen is pointing at the part of my foot that hurts:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3748/footg.jpg
try no footbeds (the lateral arch of the superfoot might be bugging the spot from the bottom, causing it to press on the shell)
try getting the shell wider at that part of your foot.
thanks for the pics and full answers, helps ALOT
also, the big toe, and all the way down the inside is usually a straight line, looks like your foot has a curve? (camera angle?)
NO IDEA if that is related to this boot problem, but just something that is not common, and might not be a problem at all.
I think your problem stems from the amount of hair on your shins. You need to shave that shit STAT! :D
hobbits need boot work too.....
Thanks, I'll try this out on Saturday. For the record, I've already swapped the green superfoot bed out for an Instaprint that I had molded for my foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
Based on Saturday's outcome, I'll likely swing by bootfitter #2's shop that evening to have him punch out the shell in that area.Quote:
try getting the shell wider at that part of your foot.
Mostly camera angle. It's a pretty straight line - with the exception of the ball of my foot, which protrudes a little bit and breaks up the otherwise straight line. Both bootfitters have mentioned the two biggest irregularities with my feet: damn high arches and a long heel to top of foot measurement.Quote:
also, the big toe, and all the way down the inside is usually a straight line, looks like your foot has a curve? (camera angle?)
Heh. What can I say, I'm a second cousin of Sasquatch. In partial defense, my left leg is much more jungle-ish than the right due to 10-12 surgeries in the past 6-7 years that have required my left leg to be shaved. Shit just comes back thicker every time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Caucasian Asian
Dude.. I'm 6'4" 230#. Way too big to be a hobbit! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion