So are there definitely two people missing but could be more?
They killed that moose on SundayQuote:
Originally Posted by acostiga
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So are there definitely two people missing but could be more?
They killed that moose on SundayQuote:
Originally Posted by acostiga
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoKopeLLi
Not yet *confirmed* but my money is on at least two people still buried.:frown::frown:
Quote:
Authorities still didn't know if more skiers were caught in Sunday's avalanche. Witnesses have said they saw two other people in the area of the slide, although authorities have not received any missing person reports.
Like I said, a very reliable source has told me that the sheriff's department was notified that a European couple has not come back to their hotel room (where their personal belongings are) for a few days. That happened this morning. I'm sure that the Sheriff's office would like to confirm the whereabouts of them before making an announcement.
"youtube"Quote:
Originally Posted by AsheanMT
"$40 bucks for this son-of-a-bitch."
Awesome. Nobody that needs to see this video will though :nonono2:
I really hope they find the European couple, maybe they went to Fernie or something.
I got to the bottom of the canyon, the bottom of the slide, just as those 2 snowmobilers got back to the scene, they had gone back to the canyon creek trailhead to call 911 as there is no cell service in that spot. When they saw that everyone was searching at the top of the slide, where they had just dug out the kid who died from slide trauma (it looked to me like he was impaled on a tree) they started freaking out and screaming, "they're looking in the wrong place."
"We saw 2 people get buried right here," and they pointed at a huge debris pile at the bottom of the slide.
The 2 bilers said, "We saw 2 people running down the hill with their skis on their shoulders and they were definitley buried."
My hope is that in the confusion they either thought those 2 were buried when in fact they freed themselves, or they saw the 2 guys get buried that have already been found.
Prayers.
Jesus H this is an intense thread. praying for the best...
Mother Nature can be harsh, I'm sad for the families that lost a son, husband, brother inlaw and more on the mountain.
It's very unnerving to hear this when I have so many friends and family that ski canyon creek, knowing that anyone can access the goods and don't give a shit about other peoples safety let alone the other users in the area.
I can imagine the mountain getting sued over this, and we lose sidecountry access just like we lost the furniture races. I've always wished the mountain was as strict as Big Sky or Bridger when you use their lifts to enter uncontrolled terrain. That kind of policy made me want to learn about the risks.
Prayers to the families.
Shit, just got an email from a classmate about this and figured there was a thread about it already. I went to high school & college with Gogolak. damn...
Authorities identify skiers killed in slide
By MICHAEL JAMISON of the Missoulian
WHITEFISH - A 19-year-old from Kalispell and a 36-year-old Whitefish man
have been identified as the skiers killed Sunday in a backcountry
avalanche north of Whitefish Mountain Resort.
Anthony Kollmann, 19, is thought to have accidentally triggered the slide
that rushed down onto a groomed snowmobile track that David Gogolak, among
other skiers, were using to re-enter the resort boundary.
Gogolak, who moved to Whitefish only recently, was with his
brother-in-law, also of Whitefish, when the snow began moving. Both men
were buried, but Gogolak's brother-in-law was able to dig himself out.
Two other skiers, meanwhile, are believed to be buried in the massive
slide, but their identities, and even their existence, continues to pose
something of a mystery.
Snowmobilers who witnessed the avalanche reported that two additional
skiers were swept away, but so far searchers have found no sign of
additional victims, Flathead County Sheriff Mike Meehan said, and no one
has been reported missing.
"We've been following up leads all day," Meehan said late Monday, "and so
far, nothing."
Before the search for additional victims could continue Monday morning,
explosives experts first had to blast away an overhanging lip of snow.
"Our first priority was to make sure our search and rescue people are
safe," Meehan said. "We couldn't get going with probe lines until the
blasters assured us it was safe."
Meehan's search and rescue squad, as well as other Flathead Valley rescue
organizations and groups from both Lake and Lincoln counties, have been
hunting since Sunday afternoon for the two unknown skiers.
"But it's a bit unsettling," Meehan said, "because we still don't have
anyone reported missing. It's hard when you just don't know what you've
got up there."
He said the two suspected victims "are kind of an unknown. They could be
visitors who just haven't been noticed missing yet, or they could be home
in bed this morning."
Undersheriff Pete Wingert said his department spent Sunday evening and
Monday afternoon tracking down cars left overnight at the resort, trying
to make sure their owners were accounted for. They also re-interviewed the
snowmobilers who reported seeing the skiers, "and they're pretty adamant
that they saw what they saw," Meehan said.
"We just don't have any leads on who they might be," Wingert said, "or
even if they're actually up there. We're searching for ghosts."
Nevertheless, at least 60 searchers and a small pack of trained dogs
headed into the backcountry north of Columbia Falls at first light Monday.
Many had snowmobiled into the same area the day before, part of a team
that recovered the bodies of Kollmann and Gogolak.
Meehan said Kollmann was killed when he triggered the slide while skiing
on a steep south-facing slope. Gogolak was buried by the avalanche while
hiking up the narrow canyon below, after skiing popular powder chutes not
far out of bounds, on the north side of Whitefish Mountain Resort.
According to witnesses, Kollmann had packed a track up south-facing
Fiberglass Hill, on the north side of the Canyon Creek drainage. Canyon
Creek trailhead, located about five miles north of Columbia Falls on the
North Fork Road, is a primary access into a large network of groomed
snowmobile trails.
One of those trails leads to the summit of Big Mountain - and Fiberglass
Hill, not far from the resort, is a common play stop for snowmobilers.
Skiers generally stick to the other side of the steep canyon, entering
from the ski area, and then re-enter the resort via the snowmobile track
that runs up the bottom of the gully.
That's what Gogolak and his brother-in-law were doing, hiking the trail
back toward Whitefish Mountain Resort, when Kollmann apparently triggered
the slide above, on Fiberglass Hill.
According to Meehan, Gogolak and his brother-in-law - both from Whitefish
- saw the slide coming and dove for cover in the trees. The avalanche,
however, filled the gully and even pushed its way up the other side, into
the forested flank of Big Mountain.
Gogolak's brother-in-law was only partially buried, and was able to dig
himself out. But Gogolak was lost beneath the slide.
His body was found some four hours later, buried in about three feet of
snow and debris. He was not wearing an avalanche beacon.
Some search party members initially indicated he may have survived the
slide only to suffocate before being dug out. But search leader Jordan
White, who was at the scene when Gogolak was found, said Monday "it was
solid pack, very dense and wet."
So tight, White said, that "there's no way he survived the slide. It was
immediate."
There was no sign of spit - backcountry users are taught to spit when
buried, to figure out which way is up - no sign of struggle, "no signs of
movement or life whatsoever."
The other victim - Kollmann - was found alive within minutes of the slide,
but died "almost immediately" from severe trauma, Meehan said.
Two snowmobilers, riding nearby but not caught in the avalanche, reported
seeing two additional skiers hiking up the groomed track, well below the
others who were swept away. The witnesses said those skiers were buried as
well; thus Monday's continued search for victims.
"It's totally unknown" whether those skiers actually are buried beneath
the snow and debris that in some places is piled more than 30 feet deep,
Meehan said, "but we have a credible report they're in there, so that's
what we're working on."
The work began with the daybreak explosives, which successfully dropped a
cracked cornice near the slide area. That cleared the way for the 60 or so
search and rescue professionals to begin probing the snow with long poles.
The problem, White said, is the depth of the avalanche debris in many
places exceeds the length of standard probe poles. In addition, he said,
when the south-facing slope slid it not only filled the canyon bottom but
also ran partway up the north-facing slope on the other side.
There it pushed through dense trees, snapping them off and burying them
deep.
"It's a mess in there," White said. "Lots of debris in beyond treeline. It
requires a lot of digging and shoveling in a situation like that."
Search teams used dogs to lead the way Monday, White said, hoping to
better pinpoint spots of interest before the digging began in earnest.
"The dogs keyed in on a few small areas," Meehan said, but all those areas
unfortunately were spots where snow is deepest. Crews used a large groomer
machine to scrape away the top five feet or so from three sites of
interest, Meehan said, "but no luck."
On Tuesday, he said, searchers will scrape more snow from the areas
located by search dogs, and will continue digging and probing deeper.
Meehan also hopes a specialized team of dogs from Fernie, B.C., will
arrive Tuesday.
"It's tough terrain to dig in," the sheriff said. "There's a lot of
debris, a lot of downed trees and such. And it's piled 30 feet deep."
Searchers left the scene at dark Monday, with plans to return at daybreak.
The Forest Service, meanwhile, has closed the entire area - including the
popular ski lines around Flower Point - until the search is complete.
Fiberglass Hill is notorious for its avalanche danger, and indeed is named
such because of the snowmobile parts and pieces left behind in earlier
accidents and avalanches.
In fact, the state's first avalanche accident of the season happened
there, when a Kalispell snowmobiler was buried. He was carried more than
300 feet, and sustained a broken femur in the Dec. 19 accident.
The following day, another snowmobiler, who had stepped away from his sled
in the same area, lost his machine to yet another avalanche.
Sunday's avalanche deaths were the first of the season in Montana.
The last avalanche deaths in Flathead County were on Jan. 16, 2006. Two
Kalispell snowmobilers were killed in that slide near Red Meadow Lake.
Got an email about Gogolak, too, apparently he is a friend of a friend. Originally from Darien, CT, he was the owner of Asquew Grill in the Haight in SF, an establishment I frequented when I lived in the neighborhood.
Positive thoughts for all friends and families involved.
Wife & 2 kids left behind .
http://www.hobsonschoice.com/behindthebar.html
Fuck, I know I ordered a drink from him if he's worked at Hobson's for along time.Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Jerry
just saw this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...terstitialskip
vibes+++
Quote:
Originally Posted by uglymoney
i think you meant to link this video..pretty blunt...
^^^i feel the same way as that guy right now^^^
+++vibes+++
i can see something like this happening(again) at The Canyons
it was bad enough up at The Canyons over the weekend that 3 patrollers and an avy dog were hanging out by the backcountry gate just in case something happened. I watched while snowboarders with no gear stopped in the middle of a a slope, built a kicker, then while 3 of them sat on the slope with cameras the rest dropped...all while over 20 people skied the same slope right by them in groups as large as 5 at a time. :eek::eek::eek:
Once i got to the top of the bootpack i there was a line(yes, a line) of people waiting their turn to take a picture next to the gate that says, "you can die"
one patroller had a beacon out and was checking to see if anyone was beeping. When she saw we were, she asked where we were headed. We looked around at the clusterfuck of people with death wishes, and told her we were getting as far away as possible from these morons. she said she would be doing the exact same thing...
gates and signs aren't enough...a 300 pound bouncer with a baseball bat is all some of these people will understand
(the avy danger was moderate w/pockets of considerable on this particular day - slope north facing and windloaded)
Fuck. They should post signs that warn of $1000 fines and a day in jail for leaving the area through gated areas without the requisite gear. This is fucking STUPID.
Fuck. They should post signs that warn of $1000 fines and a day in jail for leaving the area through gated areas without the requisite gear. This is fucking STUPID.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc_roon
Jesus, man that is pretty fucked up. We are not trending in a good direction when it comes to the increased BC usage by well intentioned people who don't have a flying fuck of a clue that they are risking their lives and that of others.
I've seen similar situations at the Whistler BC gates, people with the "a lift brought me up here so I am safe" attitude.
Once 2 years ago a guy saw me and my buddy checking out beacons before skinning further out and was like "are those walkie talkies"? We were like, "ummmm, no...."
When we told him what they were he proceed to tell us it was like wearing a seatbelt on an airplane and that there was no way they would help us if we were burried and we were chumps for thinking differently. When asked, he informed us that this was his first trip to Whistler but he did this all the time back in Colorado and he wasn't scarred one bit.
I'm not saying all those who enter the BC without the proper training/equipment are such ass clowns, but this guy is not alone in his way of thinking.
Many times I have watched people head out of bounds at Big Mountain with absolutely no equipment. I've also seen,on many occasion, people pointing a laughing at those that are wearing a beacon, shovel, and probe. Unfortunately those people will not be getting the last laugh.
unfortunately, you need more than just the gear, you need the knowledge. All of the people involved in this tragedy would still be dead even if they were beeping.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
You know...we know, it's just a matter of time before the next incident out that gate. Next time it could be 2->4->10 that could get caught. I don't have any good suggestions/solutions other than one of those gate thingies that checks to see if you're beeping before the gate opens...that costs $ and then could throw the onus onto The Canyons in court...I don't know? It's easily circumvented as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mc_roon
Sorry for the hijack, just checking this thread for more info from Big Mtn. Still sounds like there could be more buried out there?
I heard they found a rogue ski when probing. Never a good sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
I couldnt disagree more!! Nannyism is not the answer. Its not Governments job or the Ski area for that matter to protect people from their own stupidity!!
That line of thinking only leads to gate closures, and the loss of access for everyone.
I believe that one very important freedom that we enjoy is the freedom to risk our lives, and take chances. Saying that we need to limit access or jail/fine people for not having avy gear is similar to knee-jerk gun control laws every time some nut-job shoots up a school or a shopping mall.
In the end its tragic, and my thoughts go out to the friends and family of those lost. Some people might learn from this and others wont. Thats life, and human nature... more laws/fines/restrictions/ect certainly wont change that.
:nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermine
Agreed, the "maxnier avy" in '05 only ended up killing on guy but the first reports on the news were "up to 15 trapped in avy" ...we just dodged a bullet on that one.
(I'm a total asshole 2 people on the ridge with no gear or sno-sense... yesterday a kid asked me if he dropped down bear trap into BCC of dutches if he could ride back 2 the resort!!
sorry about the hijack, just commenting on above thread:rolleyes:
Ive been 2 the big moutian and whitefish-kallispelle, almost moved there.
its (still) small town and everyone knows each other there. incidents like this must hit extra hard...postive vibes 2 all friend,fam, and rescue workers.
I could care less if you drink and drive and smash yourself into a tree, but when you cross that center line it's no longer just about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
The way I see it, it's less about protecting people from their own stupidity and more about protecting ME from their stupidity. If I'm OB and beaping and you knock a slide down on me you better damn well be beaping as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
How about you protect yourself from others stupidity?!?!
We all know how many unprepared/uneducated idiots frequent dangerous side country lines... The solution is simple, venture into BC areas that are free from crowds and dangerous idiots.
Is just another risk that must be considered and should factor into your line selection process. Depending on others/govt/ski areas/ect to protect you from the irrational actions of others is fool hardy.
BTW, I am always beeping in the Back Country!
Whoa man, my use of "you" wasn't directed at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
However, the rest of your statements are in direct contradiction to the topic at hand- Backcountry access gates from ski areas which by their very nature have crowds and idiots. I personally use these gates as well as BC ventures away from the crowds.
You say you ski with a beacon, so I assume you are skiing with a shovel and probe as well yet these have no use to you personally if you are the one buried. Therefore even with full gear you are still at the mercy of your partners,others and their skill level to dig you out. This is all regardless of your knowledge base/terrain selection etc.
I would hardly consider it an impingement on my rights to require proper avy gear to access a sidecountry gate. Such requirements are already in place in several areas I know of -Baker for one and Sunshine Village as well to access the "dive". Where I ski now, no such requirement is in place.
No, you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
Having multiple people FUCKING DIE and then using a vast amount resources to search for their bodies is what will lead to ski area gate closures.
Limiting access to people with a VERY minimal set of requirements will cause fewer complete fucking gapers to pass through the gates, die, and then force others to risk their lives so their bodies can be found before they are scavenged by hungry grizzlies in the spring.
Yes I got that it wasnt directed at me... I was using "you" generally also, lost in translationQuote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
I think its relevent, if you go to ski sidecountry terrain during times of considerable danger... perhaps the number of other users already there should factor into whether or not you proceed.Quote:
However, the rest of your statements are in direct contradiction to the topic at hand- Backcountry access gates from ski areas which by their very nature have crowds and idiots. I personally use these gates as well as BC ventures away from the crowds.
You bring up a good point here, I would say that you still choose who those partners are, or you choose to not ski with partners who you dont deem to have enough know-how... it is still your choice, and that choice can either keep you safe or not.Quote:
You say you ski with a beacon, so I assume you are skiing with a shovel and probe as well yet these have no use to you personally if you are the one buried. Therefore even with full gear you are still at the mercy of your partners,others and their skill level to dig you out. This is all regardless of your knowledge base/terrain selection etc.
I admit it seems harmless, but it can lead down a road that we dont want to go down. Perhaps some resorts feel that the beeper gate is too expensive or they dont want to commit resources to enforcement... pretty soon someone within the corp/govt/ect just starts saying lets just close this gate, its easier and cheaper, not to mention safer for the public... I think that we should all be very leary of increased regulations considering it wasnt too long ago that US ski areas didnt have many, if any BC access gates. Restricting access for some will ultimatly end it for the rest of us IMO.Quote:
I would hardly consider it an impingement on my rights to require proper avy gear to access a sidecountry gate. Such requirements are already in place in several areas I know of -Baker for one and Sunshine Village as well to access the "dive". Where I ski now, no such requirement is in place.
Large groups of clueless people dying is more likely to end access than gear restrictions which are in place at plenty of other ski areas already.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
video cross-post from Ttips is pretty relevant about gapers in the BC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPX5I...ge/x1925663146
The solution isn't simple. You could avoid BC areas that have crowds and "dangerous idiots", or so you think, only to still be killed by such an idiot. Not sure how I feel on this issue, I do appreciate your POV, but it is utterly irrational to think you have complete control over people not in your party. By definition, if they are not in your group, they are an X-factor, and could be above you even if you are unaware.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
Pray tell, how can you spot an idot in the BC? Does he have a sign on his forehead that says, "I'm an idiot." Or maybe a tag on his pack that says, "I'm a BC JONG." Sure, some guy with no probe or shovel is a clue. Or somebody skinning on a 45+ degree wind loaded slope is a clue but sometimes you can't do much to protect yourselves from idiots. But maybe he's got the shovel, got the probe, got the beacon, and he could still be an idiot. I guess it's the idiot you don't see that kills you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheskier
You can never eliminate uncertainty and subjective hazard, only minimize it. Its part of the price of admission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
I totally agree that you cannot control the irrational acts of others... you can however minimize your exposure to them.
My bigger point was about the "now that this has happened, what should be done about it to protect us from others" attitude that seems to be so prevelant in this country. I think that nothing should be done, other than individuals learning what they can from the misfortune of others. I just dont think that we should start throwing new laws and restrictions around every time someone gets hurt/killed. Thats a dangerous path that will ultimatly cost us some of our cherished liberty.
Last summer several people got lost in the Holy Cross wilderness area... on several climbing forums many started saying how confusing the area was to navigate and that we needed more signage. Another example of nannyism. Whats needed is for people to become skilled with map and compass.
Obviously you can never eliminate the idiot factor... just when you think you have gotten away from all of the idiots, another one seems to shows up. But you can manage those risks and stack the odds in your favor. And doing so yourself, versus depending on others to manage those risks for you is preferred IMO.
So what's to stop us from getting off-ed by some idiot behind the wheel of a car?
Idiots are everywhere, and long term exposure could be hazardous to your health....
Here's your sign...Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadman
A lot of talk on this thread and on the E-Vail thread about the forest services/resort closing off gates after several burials and fatalities.
Has this ever happened anywhere previously??
Just curious.
Most of them used to never be open for BC travel. They would fine you if you ducked a rope.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeleHoar
was just checking this thread to see if any more victims were found. Did catch this gem by Kentheskier : I think its relevent, if you go to ski sidecountry terrain during times of considerable danger... perhaps the number of other users already there should factor into whether or not you proceed.:rolleyes:
There are no easy answers in this discussion. In every case the dynamic is different. As I see it there are at least 4 separate user groups with vastly different sets of skills and goals.
1. People without a clue, gear or skills that figure the other side of the rope is just as safe and doesn't have any tracks.
2. People with the gear and some knowledge that overestimate their skills and underestimate the consequenses.
3. People with the gear, the skills and the knowledge that may make a poor decision in terms of terrain or hazard.
4. People with the gear, the skills and the knowledge that can select appropriate terrain under any conditions and ski safely in spite of hazard.
In each case cited in this discussion, be it EV, the Canyons or Whitefish the results can be fatal.
All it will take is some Congressman or Senator up for office that decides this is an issue to get some press and the next thing you know the areas will be forced to protect us from ourselves.
What answers can anyone think of?
If you were some Joey at the top of 9990 and were about to exit that gate after having your picture take by the You May Die! signage and its a bluebird day and other people are streaming out that gate like lemmings to the cliff, would you listen to reason?
In the end little good is going to come from this and some access may become restricted. I used to exit Snowbird from the Gad II gate, the Patrol did a check out, looked at your gear and signed you out. Thats a helluva thing to hang on a company and most patrols would rather not deal with that shit, but if ski areas provide the access that may well be the future.
Big mtn has an open access policy. I think the mountain is going to come under pressure from some families that lost their loved ones, probably pay a settlement and start pulling passes for dropping into canyon creek. What sucks is this was set off by an inexperienced BC user, I feel we are lucky a snowmobiler, especially a local wasn't buried, otherwise it would be a completely different shit storm for all the Big Mountain community.
If they had a policy similar to Bridger and Big Sky this accident may have been avoided. Big Sky patrol wouldn't let us out unless we gave them our beacon and they went and buried it. I considered it a privilege that I get to hike the couloir. I was allowed because I saved the dough for the shovel and beacon, and I proved I could use it. Kind of like a drivers license.
It's coming, our privilege of skiing BC is soon to be revoked. The Big Mountain will be like Fernie. No back country access if you ride the lifts.
Chief, you are way behind the times.
"If they had a policy similar to Bridger and Big Sky this accident may have been avoided. Big Sky patrol wouldn't let us out unless we gave them our beacon and they went and buried it. I considered it a privilege that I get to hike the couloir. I was allowed because I saved the dough for the shovel and beacon, and I proved I could use it. Kind of like a drivers license."
Big Sky Ski Patrol hasn't done beacon tests for years, the Cooler is accessed from the top of the tram, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The A-Zs are accessed from the ridge above Challenger with no gear requirements. The N. Summit of Lone Mountain is accessed and managed by Moonlight Basin, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The area formerly know as Nashville is open to anyone with a MLB or Lone peak pass.
These days there is very little controlled access terrain left within the boundaries of Big Sky or Moonlight Basin.
There are BC access points to the north side of Lone Mountain and to the west side of Lone Mountain from the top of Lone Mountain.
No gear examination is required to go out those gates. Big Sky does have a fairly strongly worded sign at thier access points as does Moonlight Basin.
Bridger Bowl does still require a beacon & shovel to hike the ridge but they also have BC access gates below the ridge that are open and have no gear requirements.
Should so called sidecountry or slackcountry access go away, well, so what?