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Dude, are you serious? You really think people would rather get a ticket than see a rope? Every person you give a ticket ISN'T coming back, and they're going to tell everyone they know how much Silverton sucks....plus threads like this=even more bad publicity. All this because you're stubborn about using rope?! You're kidding, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverton Mt
If that's really the actual site then the guys must have been morons not to know it was closed. Ropes or not, boo with a closed sign means closed. If you state in the 'info sheet' or whatever that even boo without rope and/or signs means closed then that's the way it is. From what I've witnessed doing snow safety there as a volunteer, and skiing there as a customer, ropelines are practically impossible, it would takes miles and miles and much of it would just get swept away into a tangled mess. I imagine most of the boo is 'expendable' too.
I've definately heard of some questionable practices up there and there are some 'antagonistic personalities' among the staff just like anywhere. but bottom line is, they've got a job to do and are trying to make it with what they've have. This may require a more savvy customer to keep things safe and those that aren't really don't belong there. Zero tolernace is kind of harsh but it's an effective way to deal with a problem with limited resources. People have got to wake up and take notice and they will.
That said, overall, I've enjoyed the Silverton experience, even as a guided skier. Yeah there were highs and lows but overall, I'd say things were pretty friendly and fun.
This is a very disturbing post, Silverton Mt. You're obfuscating. The "boundary" in question didn't involve flailing over cliffs. It involved $99-paying customers who were instructed to ski the same "out of boundary" chute they would have skied anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverton Mt
^^^
The guys in question must have misunderstood or traversed to a different spot. No one would would deliberately send customers into a closed area just to bust them, that's retarded. The scenario sounds implausible to me and I think it's somewhat embellished, maybe on both sides.
Oh, and FWIW, unguided skiing was only like $50 bucks last year.
That depends, are you warning us that they are there or actually closing them. Dead End Cliffs at the Butte have signs so you know that they are there and there's no rope so they are open. Nobody is requesting you to close anything. But we do wish you to close in a clear way, I don't think anyone wants to break your rules and get thrown off the mountain and see his Honor. People come down there to have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverton Mt
OK so someone falls while skiing on the good side of the bamboo line. In their tumble they slide out of bounds. They put their gear back on and ski back to the good side. Kick them out because you have zero tolerance or be reasonable. I just don't think that's right, based on intent being the root of the offense, since there was no intent there was no offense. I'm just playing devil's advocate here but I have a problem with zero tolerance. People need to communicate to get by in life and some mistakes are just that.
It just strikes me as odd that one of the 1st reasonable places to ski has such an unreasonable policy.
I will say again that I like Silverton a lot and will look forward to seeing what happens out of this
Thanks, foxy, on the price. $49. The direction I wrote about related to the original post. It said they traversed past the bamboo, dawdled long enough that they hadn't even started to descend when they found out they shouldn't have passed the bamboo, yet instead of returning to the correct side of the bamboo they were instructed to follow on the descent on the wrong side of the bamboo.
Would love to get down there and try this - will try this year.
1) I think its obvious that they SHOULD have seen this boundary from this picture.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1163815689
2) Then again it's not as clear as most skiers would assume a closure would be. What if I skied the bowl with speed and cut right? I could pass the signs without looking hard. Or what if it was snowing, windy, or otherwise sight challenging?. No - I think you've got to do ropes.
3) Yes on less condos - no on less rppes. If you want to hand over all decision making processs to me it'll be called backcountry and there is PLENTY of it - you're running a controlled operation and you've got to deal with the sheep and cows that will inevetibaly show up - better build some corals and fences to deal with the lowest common denominator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverton Mt
A lot of ski areas throw up bamboo poles without ropes to mark cliff areas not closures. I'm sure I would have figured it out, especially knowing the strict policies you guys have. I'm just not sure it is completely obvious to everyone.
That's a weird story, but after making that hike, I'd be pretty attentive to any markings.
Chapter XXVI in the Silverton Saga on TGR:
People who want it to be exactly like every other resort, except different vs. People who enjoyed it for what it is (pretty much a reprint of chapters VI-XXV)
consistency is what you pay some boring ass mega corp filled with dweebs to deliver.
So you make a mistake, then try and make it right, then go to jail anyway. I somehow doubt you'd take that tone after zero tolerance happened to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Went to jail? Where did anybody say anything about jail?Quote:
Originally Posted by KillingCokes
And when did 1 post trolls bitching 7 months after the fact get accorded so much respect?
Seems the ones who have most issues with Silverton are those who ski at resorts and need signs to tell them what to do. In Europe, if you're dumb enough to ski in a closed area and get caught, they'll throw you in jail (or lots of $$$).
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...0&d=1163815689
Okay. So let me first say that I've never skied Silverton guided or unguided....
But are you fucking kidding me?
Shit. You put up some sticks with a little sign, and im supposed to stop in my tracks? I would see that as a little notice saying there are rocks around, maybe a sign saying cliff. When I see a sign saying "caution" or "cliff" without a full-on rope closure or anything signifying it's closed I ski right towards the fucker. And I assume you realize that you pull in the clientele that skis fast. I can easily picture myself carrying speed in the wide open paying no attention to you're little bamboo sticks. Just like at the resort when you see one of those in the middle of the trail. Little rock, who cares, keep rippin...
Just my 2 cents. But this scares me a bit...
edit - And I realize the sign says "ski area boundary", but just like every other resort, if you are serious about it, you make it look serious...
OMFG! People expect me to read and follow directions without extensive handholding!Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
It's not like people here let little things like ropelines stop them either - they bitch when they get busted for crossing those to :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
"Getting Busted" is alot different than "Getting taken to court." You need to have your hand held? That's cute. I just expect some serious signage if im going to court for poaching. If that's all the signs you are going to put up, then let me be responsible for my own actions. I've got no problem with that. If im going to jail for poaching that, you better put some ropes up, preferably a fucking fence. Especially at a resort known for trying to portray a type of "freeing" experience.
I guess I was wrong - you need more than hand holding, you are into full on mollycoddling, perhaps some serious nanny state action. All of the closures I can think of have, at most, rope lines. Sometimes they just have signs. And yes, because of various state laws, I'm sure you could get fined for crossing one. Boohoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
Blame CO and their skier code if you want to bitch about court (I'm guessing a fine)
Z Are you really hiking faster than Iskibc. What's you're secret? You been doing cardio? Did you buy an ultralight setup? Steroids? Meth? Angel Dust? Girl Scout cookies? Girl Scouts? What is it cause I'm hiking with him Wednesday and I sure would like to wait for him at the top for once. ;) :D :D :D
I do think that if the closure line looked like it does in the picture, than the guys in question screwed up. Given the nature of the place and the warnings, that line should be sufficient.
However, there are more stories than this, and it's a little easy to dodge the bigger customer service issue by showing how these guys screwed up.
Just some clarification.
It was unguided at $39.
The signs meet state law, but you can always put up more than required.
It is a requirement to follow the BLM ops plan which states we will have zero tollerance.
The vis was blue bird.
There is not jail time, because we asked for leniency the court offered them a fine around $30.
You don't have to sign cliffs for state law either, but almost every place does. That's their argument. Every other place does it like so and so with ropes, so we should as well. Perhaps that is what will end up taking place.
If anyone has a customer service issue, please feel free to PM me. If you search Silverton I am sure you will see our post from last fall asking for customer service input via PM. We recieved a lot of great feedback and have made some adjustments each year based on input.
Gee, Aaron - How dare you expect your customers to act like responsible adults! Don't you understand that we shouldn't be expected to know what a fucking LINE OF RED BAMBOO POLES WITH AREA BOUNDARY SIGNS ON THEM means, especially if I'm going Mach looney in an area that I already (from your maps) know is near said boundary? Shit - I only stop at stopsigns if they have children near them. Do you have any idea how rad I am?????
Oh sure, you claim that you talk to people about your boundary rules and what to look for and where, but what if I chose to fucking pick my nose and not listen? Who cares if I signed a paper that says I agree to uphold said rules - why should I be bothered to know what that document holding my signature actually implies???
To the boundary-challenged: Aren't you people the same ones who scoff at those who cannot read a topo Map? Who blather about how obvious certain avy danger signs are, and who consider yourselves above the norm in skiing ability and mental acuity?
For such a well educated (and healthy ego'ed) group of folks you guys who rail against their method of boundary demarkation are really insultingly childish, especially in regards to a place like Silverton that's basically BC skiing with a lift to get you 1/2 way there. Next you'll be bitching about the lack of groomed cat tracks to get you back to the base.
I believe we discussed this to death last year too, but in UT - you duck a rope into a closed area and yes, they can technically throw you in jail. There are laws covering it and you are in theory putting other people at risk by your actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Should Silverton put up ropes? I guess so. While I think if they explain the marking system to you, people should be intelligent enough to figure out that it isn't exactly like every other resort you ski at, you're going to have people who don't bother to pay attention and then cause problems. It's probably easier just to rope it off for the dumb ones and MAYBE you'd have less incidents. Though then you'd just get "I was ripping so hard and going so fast I couldn't see the rope and went right under it! How was I supposed to see a little rope when I ski SO FAST all the time!"
Two things... one, we're assuming that the picture above is exactly how it was when this guy skipped the boundary line. I'd be interested to see what it looked like from his perspective. If you look down about halfway, it appears as though the poles don't have any more signs on them. Second, "Of course more ropes can always be added if that is what the market demands." This is the stupidest thing I"ve heard on here. "If the market demands?" How about , if safety demands, or if common sense demands? What's it take to rope off the boundaries there? A grand worth of ropes? I would think you'd do that anyways, just to protect your customers. Not everyone can look at a map and know exactly when they're off the grid.
No one is asking anyone to rope off cliffs, but giving out tickets because you choose not to mark closures like the rest of ski areas seems stupid. Like I said, if you choose to be so stubborn about such a superficial thing as having a rope, it's going to hurt you much more in the long run.....
Interesting phraseology. Very emotive.Quote:
... making it more difficult to get his beloved permit issued by the BLM to allow over 400 skiers per day.
Also very emotive. How factual?Quote:
Don't show up on that day unless two runs is enough.
Rash? Unlikely.Quote:
We have to appear in court now because of rash, uncalculated, egotistical, and general poor and lazy mountain safety management.
We can not forget about Aaron and Silverton Mountain continuously blaming BLM guidelines for his decisions to prosecute us.
Uncalculated? Also very unlikely.
Poor and lazy mountain management? Definitely untrue.
At this point, M. Sciortino loses credibility.
So now M. Sciortino agrees with the policies?Quote:
I am glad to hear of the stern regulations put in force by the BLM because one day, someone with less experience could easily and unknowingly penetrate Silverton's inexperienced snow safety team's work and find themselves in more trouble than just dealing with some legal issues.
Another questionable allegation.Quote:
Aaron Brill called the sheriff's department on us before we even dropped in to "closed" terrain considering us poachers.
I sincerely doubt this is the case. If they cite the number of people caught, it's more likely with a tone of sad remorse than boastfulness.Quote:
They brag about the number of people that have been caught.
This seems like more empty hyperbole to me.Quote:
I believe the larger percentage of so-called poachers was not intending to break the law. Silverton Mountain's management is only concerned about getting an unguided skiing permit no matter the expense of others.
Most people act like cows. Or worse.Quote:
Is this the kind of ski area that we should have in Colorado; one that accepts no blame for their shortcomings? Aaron Brill bought up a bunch of polluted land, put a chairlift on it, advertises a backcountry powder experience, yet opens and closes terrain like he is herding cows.
I usually assume I ski an area within the confines of the rules specified.Quote:
You may take a run to scout a sweet line and on your way back there, you find that it's closed for the day… to you. Others may still ski it because they are on a "private tour."
More petulant whinging.Quote:
True backcountry skiers are better off hiking mountains that aren't dictated by an ego-maniac. Aaron Brill and his Silverton Mountain, in my opinion, just ruined a bunch of acres of once soulful backcountry terrain.
In summary it sounds like there was a misunderstanding.
From Aaron's response, it sounds like he's trying to accept some of the responsibilty. I fail to detect that in M. Sciortino's ravings.
And so as we sit back, Armchair Entrepreneurs free to lash the virtual waters with our own agenda, let me make it clear that I'm completely behind SM and what they're doing from a skiing standpoint, and environmental standpoint, an economic standpoint and an ooo-wah-I've-smoked-too-much-macrame'-standpoint.
The point is that the Brills have put their sincere work into this thing. They're the ones with the exposure, they're the ones dealing with the Feds, BLM, corporate vultures, scumbags, lawsuits, whiny big mountain rider attitudes and making this thing work. For my nickel, it's the best.
If M. Sciortino has a beef with Aaron and really wants to settle the issue, it's really best to do this in private, face to face and with a sincere heart. I don't get any of that from his statement. All I get is hollywood bitching, personal attacks on the Brills and not really addressing the issue.
The issue is a misunderstanding regarding the signage and the requirement for SM to adhere to the rules agrred to with the BLM. Denny Hogan is there every day and is obligated to report the facts to the Feds.
In a broader view, this thread becomes yet another opportunity to complain about SM for different types of bad experiences. I've been yelled at for a misunderstanding there. But I sucked it up, acknowledged the situation and had the sack to make amends with the individuals involved. I keep those issues private because that's really the only way to fix them.
One thing that's really different aboiut SM is that when you're there, you're not dealing with the marketing department or customer service employees groomed to make your experience saccharine. Everybody there is busting their asses to make the place work and sometimes they get tired, they get raw and they're not as nice as everyone would like them to be. Well you know what, everyone has their limits and just for a moment, check out the attitude meter around here as well as in the minds of most "big mountain riders". Very few of you could eal with it as gracefully or constructively as the Brills do.
People, look at what SM is doing in the large. Yes, it has some problems, yes things aren't perfect, but it's an expert only area that's dedicated to you. If you think you really can do better, go prove it.