Why is the industry still using field books for snow data, for the most part?

I used to do pit profiles like this.

http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL348...6/80591776.jpg

That was in 86.
Now, with a digicam they are done like this.

http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL348.../118562736.jpg

Ya wanna get more detailed. Add a couple of arrows and a little text describing the layering and location. Easy to remember with the picture on the computer screen.
$1700? That's more than I make in a month.
Most of the time, active weak layering is common throughout the area of concern. Field work involving digging, with spatial variability as the focus usually identifies parameters. A good memory, coupla photos and a brain eliminates most of the need for an extensive data collection system.
Those with liability concerns may require a more obsessive data bank. I kinda doubt it, though. Photos work good.
Otherwise, the gizmo is no better than Hacksaw's field book.
Keep it simple.

It is simple.

Dig pit.
Take data.
Take GPS point (added bonus)
Take digi photo (add on), tag photo to that pit
Turn off unit.
Repeat and rinse.
Take to office.
Plug in cable.
Hit a few buttons on the PC in the office.
Look at PC screen and see all data, with Pic if wanted.


The big picture here is accuracy, efficiency and increasing productivity.


And there is a whole other world outside of this board that is taking to this almost launched solution like flies on shit.

I really am not targeting you guys, as the money is not there. But good conversation and opposing views are there.


If I turn out to be wrong, it will be the first time in 31 of my 31 years. ;)

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Originally Posted by wra

Otherwise, the gizmo is no better than Hacksaw's field book.
Keep it simple.

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I agree with you; "Keep it simple." My book is way more simple then this proposed gizmo. But, these guy's arn't listening...

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

But, these guy's arn't listening...

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And Vice Versa.

You guys do it your way and us "techno geeks" will try a different way.

You feel your book is better. I see it as a painstakingly slow process. My opinion.

I feel I can make your job easier with my "gizmo". All I see from 3 pages of this is your eyes see this: $$$$$$$$$ and that is it. Not the big picture.

Return on Investment can be obtained very quickly.


I digress. Your opinions are valued, yet I we are targeting a different market, actually several. They have huge interest and funding.


I agree to disagree.

Well then, I'll just go back to looking at snow layers and forget about the fancy device. I'm more intersted in staying on top, anyhow.
Wasn't dissing the field book Hacksaw. Just haven't used one in years.
Only been using the digicam for a couple. Thought it was pretty handy.

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

You feel your book is better. I see it as a painstakingly slow process. My opinion.

I feel I can make your job easier with my "gizmo". All I see from 3 pages of this is your eyes see this: $$$$$$$$$ and that is it. Not the big picture.

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Buzz,
I see a whole lot bigger picture then you see. You and Doug Scott see this as a faster way to collect field data. Well, who cares about how fast you collect/transmit data! I look at how the forecaster will have any time to look at your so called highspeed data...... It doesn't matter how fast it comes in, it matters if the forecaster even has time to look at the data........

The big picture is that the staff of the CAIC is underpaid and overworked (forecasters commonly spend 18+ hours in the office on a forecast shift). I don't think this is big news to anyone in Colorado. Now that I don't work for CAIC any more I can say anything I want.

If some how the CAIC came up with the money for 10 of your "gizmo's" ($1,700 each??? X 10 = $17,000) I'd rather see that $17K spent on hiring an full-time office assistant who would cut down the work load on the solo forecaster. $17K at the CAIC would really go a long ways. A full time office assistant that would actually wade through all the data, and toss the useless stuff would be a true Godsend to the CAIC!!! The "office assistant," is at the top of the "wish list" at CAIC. Hi-tec gizmos like your's is way way down the wish list. Sorry, that's the blunt truth.

What it all boils down to is I'd rather pay people who have the knowledge and skills to understand the data, then pay for hi-tec gizmo's that mean CAIC has only solo forecasters. Who cares how the data arrives at the office. If there isn't a system on the other end to use it, what good is it?

If I take the time to dig a full study data snowpit, I really don't care how long its going to take me to fill out my fieldbook. The whole process of doing a full data study snowpit is time consuming anyway. When I get home I photocopy my book and fax the pages in. The forecaster looks at it first thing at "3o'clockintheohmy#@&*@Godmorning." But, if I've found anything super interesting/strange, I'd call the center on my cellphone.

And, when I do a "hasty" snowpits I'll have all my data writen in my fieldbook in under 8-10 minutes (structure, strength and shear don't take very long to do guys...). Then I'm on the cellphone to the Boulder office, and give my quick and dirty report. In less then 10 minutes I've gotten my report in to the forecaster; and I'm holding a just a simple unbreakable field book in my hand....

Best of luck on the development of your gizmo (sorry, I don't know what to call it). I'm sure there will be some folks that think its the hotest can't live without thing. And one day that maybe true.

Meanwhile, I'm working on the NEW professional edition of my fieldbook.
Cheers,
Halsted

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Buzz,
Well, who cares about how fast you collect/transmit data!

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Well, that is just it, many others do. Effieciency in the field and office is a key factor for many leads I have.


You and I are at am impass on this issue. I know you don't have the money for technology. It sucks that the people helping to save lives out there do not get better funding, but reality is reality.


There are many private markets where this technology and ease of use will be adopted. Hopefully down the road Public agencies may jump on the wagon. All I can do is try.


As for the gizmo, it is a handheld ultra rugged field computer called the Archer, by Juniper Systems Inc.


We will both find success, in different ways. Maybe next winter you may see it in action in your area. Who knows.

Cheers,

Buzz

Buzz, you are probably aware of this but. ISSW is at Telluride this fall, 10/1 thru 10/6. There will be plenty of people from all over the world you can talk to about your "Gizmo"

http://www.issworkshop.org/

Looks like a nice unit, buzz.
Useful for large operations, ski area snow safety etc.
A little much for gathering bullseye info on where and when to ski and how the avi cycles are running.
Maybe....when it costs as much as a beacon.

I guess I've been using the currently available tech for a while now (digital recorders, snow pro, GPS positioning, digital cameras and mini DV's, electronic compasses and altimeters, custom terrain catalogs, etc). For those who both have to evaluate and document (yes for liability reasons), the more automated the better, as long as the technology is portable, durable, and makes data entry and processing easier. I will never have anyone to log in my data at the office when I'm in the field. And there is no need, once everything is networked together. The new technology should eliminated the need for additional bodies to enter and sort data (unless you need soemone to answer the phone). After a long day of guiding, I want the most automation I can have in my system since I have to do it all myself. I have seen how similar networked data collection systems save time and staff in other fields, and it's not unreasonable to acheive the same in the avalanche community. The common goal in all of this is to reduce data collection time and to automatically enter it into a network where time is spent analyizing, not on data entry.

On the other hand, most of the important snowpack modeling is stored in my head on a given feild assignment. But I do need to document it for future reference and to share with other guides (in the same day). I see the old school philosophy of this is just more crap, but I also think that if someone wants to take a stab at making our life easier, than more power to them. I understand the money issue, too bad avalanche forecasters can't organize. it's rediculous that forecasters make less than most trades or professionals, yet carry the responsibility for many lives on their shoulders.

The above arguement as to how many pits you need, really depends on where you are and what you are trying to do. When you have no remote sensing, pits are more important. When you are pushing the envelope in steep technical terrain, pits are important. They do not tell you when it's safe, but they tell you when it isn't, and when you better use good route finding. as I've said before we did a lot of pits with the TGR crew. It's one of our more important (but not only) forecasting tools. A device which streamlines this process might give me time to grab a few more pits in the day, and more time analzing my observations at night.

Sarge

I have been out of this thread for a while. You guys have gone nuts beating this around. Halstead there will be some use of Buzz's companies pocket PC unit next season you can count on it and it will be at the ISSW. It is expensive and that will limit it for some groups that don't have funding. There are cheaper pocket pc's that rip and can be used effectly. Several ski areas have bought the expensive Trimble units and they are using them in all types of resort and infrastructure work. As more GIS trained people are in the ski industry it will it easier to apply and becoming widespread. As I mentioned before we don't want to force you to use one and this technology will be established eventually. I am using it in all kinds of applications for envirnomental field work. I like how strongly you want to fight it and it is great that techo hold outs at the CAIC are disappearing from the CAIC. The CAIC may even get the units given to them. I am very aware that that the CAIC is not with the Forest Service Avalanche Centers. I have been working with the CAIC for free to help with updating the website maps for next fall, to get it so that it can provide more information!! Like I said ,keep making those field books and at least there will be some good data stored somewhere? The rest of us won't be able to see or understand it but that is fine ,right?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Avmapper

I like how strongly you want to fight it and it is great that techo hold outs at the CAIC are disappearing from the CAIC.

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I'm glad that makes you soo happy Doug. I'll keep that in mind at the CAIC "retirements BBQ," this Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Avmapper

Like I said ,keep making those field books and at least there will be some good data stored somewhere? The rest of us won't be able to see or understand it but that is fine ,right?:confused:

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Yea your right, the data has been stored and used in the forecasts by the CAIC. And gee, everyone there seemed to be able to understand the data.

I think you'll be finding with your hitec toys, that fewer folks will actually want to share their data.

Go ask a lawyer, if its a good idea to share your snowpack data..... Remember, if its public info, it can be held againest you in court of law.....:tongue: :eek:

See you at ISSW.

Cheers,
Halsted Morris
Formerly of CAIC

OT- Avmapper- noticed the other day, how come the Postage Stamp isn't on the BP map? (Among others)...

This isn't a techie vs. traditionalist fight here. Someone (Juniper Systems) is trying to throw some new technology our way that has proven itself in data collection and processing in other similar industries. There are many hurdles ahead. We need a system that actually does save time in the field, that is reliable, durable and user friendly. Cost is certainly an issue but I still think it possible that the time saving of a complete system would pay itself off. Bottom line is, this device doesn't make anyone a better forecaster. It could however save some of us some valuable time. For that reason alone I support the effort. If it doesn't work, we still have the systems (including fieldbooks) to fall back on. I'm optimistic that the device could be configured in such a way to be a useful tool if it is developed correctly.

Sarge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avmapper

Halstead there will be some use of Buzz's companies pocket PC unit next season you can count on it and it will be at the ISSW.

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Looks like there is a good chance I am going to be heading down as well. Just got the go ahead for a few days down there it looks like.

My maps don't claim to have all the paths. So if you have more information please send it to me and I am happy to make revisions to include it. I'll Give you a map with the updates for the update information. I am open to this for any area I have worked on. Part of this is having people offer their knowledge of the area to make the avalanche path inventory more complete.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

OT- Avmapper- noticed the other day, how come the Postage Stamp isn't on the BP map? (Among others)...

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Ba Da Bump

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

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:confused:

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:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

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:rolleyes2

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:p :the_finge

:cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

Now get your but to ESRI and let me buy you a beer......

Oh, and tech is great stuff....

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Originally Posted by Telenater

:cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:

Now get your but to ESRI and let me buy you a beer......

Oh, and tech is great stuff....

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Nater, not high enough on the food chain. Our VP of Sales/Marketing, CEO and CTO will be heading there.


The goodies are in the hands of a professional now. Now it is time to test, test and test more. Of course snow will help. Tweaking the finer points.

Hang tight and more to come. Can't say much more than that now.


PM coming on names of our staff to talk to and say that you are my "ski friend", they know that term, and talk about how you really want to see this kind of stuff and that I am the best person on staff here because of it. :biggrin: ;)

Just kidding. But do talk with them, the more interest they see, the more resources I can get.

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

:p :the_finge

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Gezzs, I didn't piss in your cornflakes....:confused:

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Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Gezzs, I didn't piss in your cornflakes....:confused:

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Halsted, just be patient. You can rip on technology soon enough. :rolleyes:


Oh, good, working, efficient technology. :D

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Halsted, just be patient. You can rip on technology soon enough. :rolleyes:

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So you give me the finger and then tell me to be patient......

Not exactly the best way of bring me around to buying your new toy.