Shrub: Pro Torture?

There's plenty of ways to "stir the shit," but posting a NYT editorial is a minor one compared the vicious response it elicited right away.

I like these threads. I don't post in them, but I like seeing people's true colors. It helps me reach a more complete picture of who you all are, and consequently helps define which of you I'm eager to meet in person and which of you I'd like to kick in the teeth.

I still don't get what the hell is wrong with starting a post like this? So stop arguing about it :p I don't see any shit stirred here just a good discussion by people who are trying learn and care about what is going on.

Rusty sorry about the generalization, but I still got my panties in a wad over the jag officer that briefed us on ROEs and the rest of his crap. Will talk offline some other time.

The story I read about the Marine sniper is from his autobiography and I don't have any second hand verification if his story is true.

I am done for now as it is too nice of a day out and I am going to go enjoy it! :biggrin:

I think the non-Americans on this forum can verify what I think is happening. The USA is increasingly viewed abroad as a conservative, militaristic bully that feels the world revolves around it's needs and desires. A far cry from the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" envisioned by our forefathers. :nonono2:

Interesting stuff
I've been to Iraq on two different tours. When The war started we laughed because our orders said we'd be be there a year. We honestly thought we'd be drinking a pils at the pub in a matter of weeks.
During the initial fight I was egaged with chemical weapons(scud) and a French anti-aircraft Gun(Roland) that was developed long after the embargo against Iraq started. I had a shot at the guy who hit my wing man in the face( He's Fine) with an AK-47 and didn't pull the trigger because of civilians in the area. Most of the guys I flew with where faced with the same decision and to a man we never shot, which at times led to us taking rounds.
I was emberrassed for the military win the Abu Graib scandal hit. I do believe That 99% of us in uniform strive for a higher standard than our enemies and allies alike. I was angry that after flying 8hrs during the January elections I could hear the dissapointment in the CNN reporters voice that things went smoothly. I had little contact with Iraqi people. The ones I did meet welcomed democracy but wanted us out of there.
I don't advicate toture, but we've never been in a war like this as far as I know. I'm very interested how history will see this in twenty years. For now I'm going to enjoy my decompression tour in SLC. Crash my bike a few times, make some turns with friends and hope this war is over before AK or I have to go back.

Somewhere between Fox and CNN lies the truth.

In the US,in theory at least, we are supposed to have the highest standards for just about everything.Because we fail in some catagories or the fact that others don't apply the same values is immaterial.You do you best ,ALWAYS!

This is why I not a fan of a significant portion of Muslims.If Muslims were as devout to their religion as they claim to be,they would be the 1st ones in line out there fighting & killing Muslims extremists,because the Extremists are shattering the codes , rules,& ethics of Islam & are doing more damage to Islam than any non Muslim is capable of doing.Instead they have only been forced to defend themselves & have been sitting on the sidelines unwilling to challenge fellow evil doing "Brothers".They freak out if a Koran is descreted,but do nothing while tens of thousands of Muslim Sunni's & Shias kill each other.What's more important,the descration of an easily reprinted book, or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES BEING TAKEN?This is at best, a very F*CKED UP view of priorities.

In war,bad things happen is mis-leading. In BATTLE bad things happen.In BATTLE,if an enemy combatant is wounded & you think he might be faking the extent of his injuries or that he my be suicidal in his intent to kill you, YOU KILL HIM ON THE SPOT.This is par for the course & happened to be caught on tape in a Mosque in Iraq.I thought the Marine did the right thing in shooting this guy to death.

This is VERY DIFFERENT from capturing someone during battle,disarming them & taking them to a place where they can not harm others,& then TORTURING THEM or killing them for retribution.I see NO common ground between to 2!

There is no solice in the fact that during war some think that anything is allowed.

Bush for torture,why not!He & Cheney's crew of shameless enforcers have been torturing half of America for almost 6 years.

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Originally Posted by rotorhead

but we've never been in a war like this as far as I know. I'm very interested how history will see this in twenty years.

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One we started after lieing about the reasons to start it?

History is going to condem the Bush regime and probably our generation for allowing it to happen.

Thanks for your service - I'm sorry the cause it was used in has been futile.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

One we started after lieing about the reasons to start it?

History is going to condem the Bush regime and probably our generation for allowing it to happen.

Thanks for your service - I'm sorry the cause it was used in has been futile.

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Like I said, we'll see

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Originally Posted by Jumper Bones

anyway, the question in this case isn't that we need to not do this "for the sake of our people", it's a question of do we walk the moral high road here, and not do something that each and every one of our past enemies have committed in all of our conflicts?

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Sitting behind my computer in my certified green office building, I vote for the high road.

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Originally Posted by Jumper Bones

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Originally Posted by limp wrist liberal

We, the United States, are fighting the pigs by jumping headfirst into the shit.

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bingo. unfortunately I think it's necessary.

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I hope not. Not to be a reductionist, but if we sink to their level what are we fighting for?

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Originally Posted by Will

The interesting thing is that they're not following the rules. Go watch the Frontline Documentary through their website, they have an interview with both a former and present Army interrogater detailing what they do to prisoners. And that's just the army... the CIA is a whole other ball game.

So here's the question: How many innocent people is it okay to torture in order to extract information saving one Coalition life.

5?

10?

1,000?

If you knew that torturing your mother would save a Coalition life would that be ok? Let's say she was picked up in a random sweep of people who might have knowledge about an upcoming terrorist attack. Wrong place, wrong time - but we have reason to believe that someone in that groups knows something. So we go to work on all of them.

And heck, let's keep it within the boundaries of what the administration has said is not torture. That is, no impending sense death and no sense of pain equal to that of organ failure.

So to begin we take mom into a room hooded and bound. Then we release a dog on her. The dog is muzzled, but she does not know that. Maybe, under controlled situations we let the dog gnaw on her a bit. You know, nothing too bad, just mom gets a few superficial dog bites.

Then we break every bone in her left hand.

Then we stick her in a cold shower with fans running on her, suspended by her wrists for.... oh heck.... 4 hours? (You're right... better make it 5)

Then we take dear old mom into another room and let some guys work her over a bit. Nothing to bad, just some kicks to the head, a few punches, a knee thrown here and there. Probably mom walks out with a few less teeth, a broken rib or two, and a dislocated shoulder.

But hey! She hasn't experienced any imminent fear of death or the pain of organ failure, so buck up kiddos... it's not torture!

Let's put her through another 4 hours in the shower, maybe some sensory deprivation, another beating or two... and then some sleep deprivation.

Then we move onto the water boarding & sodomy.

Am I the only one who thinks we're better than this?

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OK, so you are drawing a corrolary between my mother a US citizen and an enemy combatant in a foreign country.

nice try.

This legislation isn't about what goes on domestically regarding the arrest of US citizens. I guess you would have brought up the above regarding the Patriot Act.

come on, Will. you usually do better than that.

And regarding the numbers, I usually refrain from using equivalence where human life is concerned. I don't think people like Idi Amin get to be mentioned in the same breath as Stalin or Hitler. but if we have to put the screws to mutiple enemy combatants/terrorists/minutemen(hat tip M. Moore) to save one Coalition, especially American life, so be it.

:shrug: The part you don't get is that putting the screws to them may in the end save one American life but ultimately will cost many others theirs.

G- your premise that the lives of US citizens are worth more than the lives of others is fundamentally wrong.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

:shrug: The part you don't get is that putting the screws to them may in the end save one American life but ultimately will cost many others theirs.

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Isn't that the operating premise of the current administration? Mortgage the future to pay for today.

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Originally Posted by truth

I'm pretty sure it's allready bad news. I just don't believe that others are following the rules AG, especially those that we are fighting in this war on terror.

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Sinking to their level isn't going to solve anything, though.

I agree with others who have posted it -- torture and mistreatment of POWs just strengthens resistance. I don't think it's a good idea at all to head in that direction.

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Originally Posted by YetiMan

G- your premise that the lives of US citizens are worth more than the lives of others is fundamentally wrong.

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Here goes. An Arab and an American are standing in a Tel Aviv night club each with a pound of semtex strapped to their respective midsections. Which one is standing in a pool of his own urine and which one is thinking about the 22 virgins he's about to defile?

As soon as they respect their own lives. I'll start respecting the "worth" of their lives. The fucked up thing that is now happening is that the Al Qaeda/Sunni terrorists are now blowing up themselves and their fellow muslims. Me thinks the rest of the arab-islamic world won't continue to abide by this.

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

Here goes. An Arab and an American are standing in a Tel Aviv night club each with a pound of semtex strapped to their respective midsections. Which one is standing in a pool of his own urine and which one is thinking about the 22 virgins he's about to defile?

As soon as they respect their own lives. I'll start respecting the "worth" of their lives. The fucked up thing that is now happening is that the Al Qaeda/Sunni terrorists are now blowing up themselves and their fellow muslims. Me thinks the rest of the arab-islamic world won't continue to abide by this.

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INPPS......

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

Here goes. An Arab and an American are standing in a Tel Aviv night club each with a pound of semtex strapped to their respective midsections. Which one is standing in a pool of his own urine and which one is thinking about the 22 virgins he's about to defile?

As soon as they respect their own lives. I'll start respecting the "worth" of their lives. The fucked up thing that is now happening is that the Al Qaeda/Sunni terrorists are now blowing up themselves and their fellow muslims. Me thinks the rest of the arab-islamic world won't continue to abide by this.

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We had a cival war, the United States did...really.

20000 murders a year in the US.

Texas executes retarded minors.

Maricopa county Arizona has their jailed citizens (arrested but not convicted) stay outside in the blazing hot sun in 110 degree weather as a deterrent to crime.

You're living in fantasy land if you think that the US is so special in terms of respecting human life.

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

Here goes. An Arab and an American are standing in a Tel Aviv night club each with a pound of semtex strapped to their respective midsections. Which one is standing in a pool of his own urine and which one is thinking about the 22 virgins he's about to defile?

As soon as they respect their own lives. I'll start respecting the "worth" of their lives. The fucked up thing that is now happening is that the Al Qaeda/Sunni terrorists are now blowing up themselves and their fellow muslims. Me thinks the rest of the arab-islamic world won't continue to abide by this.

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Oaklahoma City, Waco, Columbine........

Stupid fucking bigot

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Oaklahoma City, Waco, Columbine........

Stupid fucking bigot

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Your kneejerk PC blatherings only show you aren't able to think for yourself.
I'm sure you think youre safe that everyone will jump on your wagon.
Well, I've got news for you buddy. The muslims are the ones killing everyone. Remember 9-11?

If you were around in WW2 and Mr G said something about the Japs and Nazis, you'd probably call him a bigot then too. Please shut the fuck up already, MORON.

village idiot= "woohoo, I'm goan start me a holy war!!"

I've had enough.

X END COMMUNICATION X

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Originally Posted by Villiage Idiot

Your kneejerk PC blatherings only show you aren't able to think for yourself.
I'm sure you think your safe that everyone will jump on your wagon.
Well, I've got news for you buddy. The muslims are the ones killing everyone. Remember 9-11?

If you were around in WW2 and Mr G said something about the Japs and Nazis, you'd probably call him a bigot then too. Please shut the fuck up already, MORON.

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Hating narrow minded bigotry is Knee jerk and PC?

Sack up and come out from behind the fucking alias and let's hear what other pearls of wisdom you've got for us. Equating the war in Iraq with WW2 was probably your dumbest but there must be some more.

I'll speak for myself. Having gone to Navy SERE (Survive Evade Resist Escape) and having worn a uniform in a designated high risk of capture position, I've been on the receiving end of interrogations. For those of you who condone torture and similar treatments, I think your perspective would be different if you ever had to realistically consider yourself being on the receiving end of torture. I can imagine what it's like.

In my opinion ignoring the Geneva Convention is wrong. Applying a different set of standards towards you interrogation methods than what you expect for your own soldiers is plain a double standard. For a country that prides itself on its Bill of Rights and freedoms, torture and associated methods are just plain counter to everything it is founded upon. I can't advocate torture under any circumstance. I'd argue that sacrificing your principles takes precedence, even if it means that one doesn't obtain all possible information.

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

OK, so you are drawing a corrolary between my mother a US citizen and an enemy combatant in a foreign country.

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You missed my point. I am comparing your mother, an innocent person, to a random innocent Iraqi grabbed off the streets of Baghdad.

The people we have captured in Iraq are not all terrorists. They are not all enemy combatants, some of them are not even common criminals. In our prisons in Iraq we have innocent people. They were gathered up in large sweeps, they were turned in by neighbors with a grudge, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time - whatever.

(Anyone remember the 13-year-old, one 14-year-old, two 15-year-olds, one 16-year-old, an 88-year-old, and a 98-year-old in Gitmo?)

How do we tell the difference between an innocent person, an Iraqi fighting with the insurgency, and an Al Qaeda member from Jordan? We try, but we cannot be completely successful.

When we implement a policy of torture (I'm sorry, coercive interrogation ...such a far nicer word. It sounds like hugs from a snuggly bear!) we have to accept the fact that we are not going to be torturing 'only' the bad guys. We will be torturing bad guys and good guys.

So back to my question: how many good guys are we allowed to torture? How many innocent people should we torture in order to sucessfully torture one bad guy? What's the ratio?

Would people be happy for their local police departments to torture suspects or informers - after all a criminal can make you just as dead as a terrorist?

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Originally Posted by Will

Y
The people we have captured in Iraq are not all terrorists. They are not all enemy combatants, some of them are not even common criminals. In our prisons in Iraq we have innocent people. They were gathered up in large sweeps, they were turned in by neighbors with a grudge, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time - whatever.

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That is so true. Everyone hates the USA so much over there now, ANY American-backed govt will not fly. The sooner we realize that the better. If some soldier speaking a foreign language wrongfully kicked YOUR GRANDFATHERS door in during the middle of the night, tore it to shreds and terrorized the occupants, you would be joining the "insurgency" right quick. :(

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Would people be happy for their local police departments to torture suspects or informers - after all a criminal can make you just as dead as a terrorist?

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I think this is a really good idea. All those indigent, lazy good for nothing bivalve scum should be pounded with tubs of black jello, raked with rose thorns and subjected to hours of Pat Robertson.

So says the Profit Prophet: Only through deconstructionist dada device manipulations will we have a chance at maintaining the truely pure and correct Economic Principle of profit or death. For the only thing that matters is profit.

Surely our armada of second rate opera singers, standing on escarpments in the dying light, bow ties loosened, eyebrows arched in a display of insouciant investment strategies, blood spattered tourniquets of pity over their hearts will stay the open borders, the festering socialists and threat of moldy bagels. O Suzy Creamcheese, where art thou?