Two questions for OP before we tie these operators to the stake and burn’em:
1. What does the agreement between your friends and Silverton/Majestic say about refunds? You know, the terms and conditions?
2. Did your friends purchase travel insurance? If not, why not?
So, I wrote this while only halfway through the comments.
While I'm sympathetic to the OP/client, my first thought was how much annual outlay the ops make for the helicopter lease, maintenance, etc - how much this puts them in the red for the season.
They're not smilin' over this turn of events.
I'm guessing that future contracts (if they hopefully survive) will have trip insurance and "no refund" disclaimers plastered all over the contracts and websites.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by muted
... ThomQuote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
But it's not just that. this could disrupt a fuck of a lot of stuff. What's the alaska heli op industry going to look like next year if a number of airlines including Alaska Air don't make it. What if it turns out to be seasonable and rears back up huge next winter. There are a lot of unknowns right now and not all businesses run with the same level of liquidity. Also keep in mind they have probably lost a lot of future bookings for next year and may be experiencing cancellations there as well that are within cancellation windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
Good question and i don’t know. The post wasn’t to put them to the stake. It was to get some outside input. I was of the mindset they should be refunding the customer. As I said i refunded 100% all STR who cancelled even though no hotels anywhere are doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TBS
The Airbnb policy has created some serious issue for hosts.
I was just seeing what other people thought.
My buddy Greg Harms who owns Third Edge Heli which is more of a booking company that has numerous guides who ski with their clients has either refunded or credited all his customers. Granted he doesn’t own any helis he certainly does a shit ton of business
Regarding trip insurance. Read the policy, as ours did not cover pandemics so John Hancock told me to pound sand in the initial email exchange. Once my flight to Yurp was cancelled by the airline, then the entire trip was covered. The insurer will try to get out of paying, so read the coverage. I agree that there is a good chance this shit will be back next winter, so plan accordingly.
I haven’t read the full thread but you can throw ethics out the window. This isn’t some minor set back in the US economy, it is a once a century global crisis.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Put yourself in the shoes of the heli operator, do you think their creditors and vendors are extending credit terms to them? Nope...and why not? Because their partners are not extending their terms. Shit flows downhill and everyone is doing the best they can, there is no playbook for this.
This is all about self preservation and everyone is going to feel the pain. Bitching about not getting a refund on heli skiing seems outrageous when 16M people have filed for unemployment in the US alone.
401k’s are getting rolled back, salary cuts by 40%, furloughs and layoffs...give me a fucking break about the $10k heli trip.
Does it suck, yep...so does now having to work for another 2 years because you can’t retire as soon as you wanted.
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The reality maybe that they don't have any cash to return...
Bingo...cash flow is of a business is what this is about, not because of ethics.Quote:
Originally Posted by f=ma
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They're broke for sure. And their customers are probably fucked contractually. The risk of this type of event is always on the consumer. Any business you give a substantial pre-payment to could go tits up without delivering and you would have no recourse as an unsecured creditor. It's the American way.
When circumstances beyond your control force you to cancel something that people have already paid for the ethical thing to do is to try and make your customers as whole as you can, even if it puts you out of business. But this is America, where people happily walk away from houses when they're under water, even when they can easily keep paying on the mortgage. Everyone for themselves, fuck over whoever you have to, good chance you'll wind up President. Only suckers pay their bills. Call me naive, or old fashioned, or out of touch. I'll happily own it.
This is a shitty situation for everyone.
^^ Not so cut and dried if the deposit money you got from your customers has been paid to your vendors for future services, and who now will not pay you back, because they paid suppliers, staff, etc. How do you refund money you do not have? I’m a bean counter; I get how this works. No business takes 100% of a customer’s payment (except maybe lawyers, who are required to by law) and sets it aside in trust until the event they paid for occurs. Deposits to vendors must be made, supplies secured; the hope is you recoup it all, plus profit, when your customer pays the final bill. That’s a risk the business takes. Getting a refund of 100% assumes that the business has spent 0% of your deposit on prepping for the event, which is asinine.
I thought I had an opinion on this until I read this thread and then remembered that I had lost everything last year when the economy was "normal."
Live and learn, peeps. If you think you deserve a refund it's because you didn't consider this loss before your hindsight was 20/20.
Nobody is trying to screw anyone. Nobody is actually paying any attention to you at all.
Always have an exit clause.
I’m not going to comment on the refund thing because I do not work in the heli-skiing industry. I do, however, fly helicopters in Canada. I’d like to know who these organizations are getting to fly helicopters now. Pilots are refusing unsafe work now. In BC there were a bunch of Covid-19 cases at heli-ski operators that necessitated pilots self-isolating due to exposure. This is particularly problematic when you consider that the field of qualified commercial helicopter pilots is small and the field of qualified longline/mountain/SAR pilots is even lower and many of these pilots work heli-ski operations when not flying critical missions. Additionally these same helicopter pilots also fly forest fire missions in the summer. To that extent most operators have closed for the season in BC. There is a legitimate need to preserve helicopter pilots and infrastructure to perform vital functions such as SAR/medevac and forest fire operations in the coming months. As a pilot I certainly would not be willing to fly a helicopter filled with people who recently travelled from all manner of places to come heli-skiing. As a government, the State of Alaska ought to be considering the need to preserve capabilities for essential missions. Flying heli-skiing operations are not essential. Even from an ethics perspective these operators should be looking at themselves whether it’s worth their employees potentially becoming sick and even dying for something as non-essential as skiing.
Are we sure that these Heli Ops are not trying to make the customer as whole as possible? It sounds like they might be trying to figure out how to leverage these govt bailout loans/grants to pay off bills and employees, while also refunding/crediting customers. I'm guessing these "low end" heli ops dont have a crack accounting department, so its probably going to take a little bit to figure out the best course of action.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
That said, it is the american way to only consider ones self when in financial straits. We elected an oompa loompa who is the poster (man)child for gaming the system as hard as possible to benefit himself to the detriment of those around him. The old american values of being prideful and keeping your word have officially be killed and buried.
You should learn a bit about how business works.. and travel...Quote:
Originally Posted by powdork
Even if Alaska Air ceased to exist if they, "don't make it." That doesn't mean that the gates at the airports they serve cease to exist. Even if they don't make it, it usually just means that they restructure and get to tell a few of their creditors to go screw off.... Anywho, it's these small operators like the heli ops that are learning a lot about contract law, insurance law, etc right now.
Yup. Heli ski outfits up the valley were grounded by Mar 17; no idea how they are addressing the issue of cancelled trips in the height of a fantastic snowpack season. Clientele for those outfits are generally the upper 0.1%, so most are probably not having hardship if they lose a couple or ten grand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass Rat
Our local pilot is grounded except for essential/emergency flights. Was up on a search in the park a couple weeks ago, and we flew with his door open, me alone in the back of the long ranger glassing the river. Fire crews are staging for the grassfire season now, and the protocols for approved flights are very extensive. It will be a very interesting season.
As someone who got their bucket list AK trip cancelled (today was supposed to be last ski day up there, F!)... I totally understand the operators position. It is a big upfront cost business - bird leases, insurance, fuel contracts, etc - for a short season. It is a passion business with thin margins - no one's getting super rich anywhere in the ski industry I don't think, short of maybe the Vail CEO. It was a bucket list luxury for me, and I understood the risk of being shut out based on weather - this is just mother nature imposing herself in a much bigger way! I've gotten good communication from the operator on what they're trying to do with fed money, vendors, etc to do as right as possible for their clients while still saying afloat themselves.
Like many as said, this is hard for everyone and there's no windfall for anyone. I already spent my money. I wish I got the experience in return, but mom nature imposed herself. I hope the operators survive 1) for their own sake and 2) so I can still do it some day in the future. And in the meantime, many have bigger problems than this.
cruise ships shut down
CAN border closed
air travel reduced
AK municipalities and small businesses that depend on
seasonal tourism are all looking over the edge right now
some heading for an economic meltdown
the price of oil ~ $31 a barrel won't help
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late 80's were some quality years.Quote:
Originally Posted by romeo tango
Love to know what the price of gas is at the bottom LCC 7-11
Question for the insurance savvy: could the heli ops have conceivably purchased an insurance policy that covers their asses in a situation like this?
Business Interruption Insurance would be one avenue.
Don't know if standard policies would cover interruption due to pandemic. In a recent example, the BI policy SXSW had did not. OTOH, I believe I read that the US Tennis Open's policy does...
Also don't know what the pricing would look like - again depends on the covered risks.
Paging Conundrum...
The premiums for pandemic insurance are insane. Could they? Sure. Would they? NoQuote:
Originally Posted by MegaStoke
Heard the other day on radio so my figures may be slightly incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Wimbleton has been paying 2 million a year for the last six years (since SARS).
This year they collected. 120 million. Lloyds took a beating there.
Don't think a low rent Heli Op could afford the premiums.