To be able to climb Mt.Everest

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Originally Posted by shamrockpow

When people throw out a question like this (especially if they're not a climber) I think the most important question to ask is WHY? Why do we climb is a complicated question, but why people climb Everest is more clear: EGO. I'm not saying that applies to everybody there, but certainly a lot of folks aren't in it for the right reasons.

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I understand what you're saying. And you're probably right. A lot of people do it for Ego, which appears to be a pretty stupid reason to do-- it on the surface anyway.

However, if ego is what spurs someone to do something really amazing then perhaps that isn't such a bad motivation at all. Who is to say what is a right reason or a wrong reason to embark on a life journey, whatever it may be?

This is, by the way, not even taking into account doing something "for the sake of ego" and diving into it totally unprepared (endangering yourself, others, the environment you live in). That is plain old stupidity. Not necessarily because it risks your life, but because of the impact it could have on the lives of others who try to help you or who (for whatever reasons) care about you.

Sprite

What about George Mallory's response to a question about climbing a big mountain: "Because it's there"? Man vs. Nature, not ego driven.

change of subject

Like prosecutors may tell you, eyewitnesses aren't always accurate. Consider that combined with storms and high altitude. Such thoughts tell me Krakauer probably wasn't accurate on all points. I'll have to defend Krakauer having read and believing why he wrote the Outside article as well as Into Thin Air: he felt compelled to tell a story that had been haunting him. His perspective is but one of several and not definitive. If you combine all of the accounts, you'll come closer to understanding what transpired.

Me? I'll have to stick to the Sierras because I'm not ready nor do I have the desire for Everest. People are probably out there right now. I wish them the best.

The whole region is being affected by unseasonably bad weather. I don't believe anyone has summitted from the south col route (most popular) yet this season as a result. I was also affected in the Rowaling Valley next door... 8-10 days of snow, like clockwork, starting around noon. Mother Nature wins most of the time ;)

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Originally Posted by homeless

3. The problems on that day were all being heavily aggravated by the fact that the group Krakauer was in was moving waaaaayyy too slow - this is where I need to go back and re-read. I'm open to corrections - I always got the impression that this was a source of embarrasment for Krakauer.

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Embarrasment? Not according to Into Thin Air. He was frustrated, but not embarrassed.

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Originally Posted by tarkman1

What about George Mallory's response to a question about climbing a big mountain: "Because it's there"? Man vs. Nature, not ego driven.

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It's thought Mallory's response was tongue in cheek to get an american reporter of his back.

Hermann Buhl was the man. If anyone finds a copy, watch
The Climb one of the better climbing movies ever, imho.

I wouldn't call Boukreev anymore hardcore than Krakaur, they were simply different types of climbers. Krakaur's a low altitude mountaineer, with a number of FA's, Boukreev liked to repeat Himalyan routes. Different strokes.

Just remember the Powersauce Bars. It worked on the Murderhorn.

Hans Kammerlander was climbing Shisma Pangma on that day when all those people died. A week later he climbed Everest with skis (and no oxygen) and skied from the top (minus the Step, which he downclimbed).

http://www.jerberyd.com/climbing/climbers/kammerlander/

He has skied from the top of K2 (harder than Everest) and once he climbed all 4 ridges of Metterhorn in less than 24 hours.

I saw him give a slideshow once and he looks like the last of the heroin addicts. But he is super-burly. He does not write books in English, so he is not famous.

Into Thin Air letters on Mountain Zone.

This details a pretty interesting dialogue between Krakauer, Boukreev, and Lopsan Sherpa on what transpired on Everest May 10th, 1996. This somewhat sums up the arguments made in the authors' respective novels on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Alek

Hans Kammerlander was climbing Shisma Pangma on that day when all those people died. A week later he climbed Everest with skis (and no oxygen) and skied from the top (minus the Step, which he downclimbed).

http://www.jerberyd.com/climbing/climbers/kammerlander/

He has skied from the top of K2 (harder than Everest) and once he climbed all 4 ridges of Metterhorn in less than 24 hours.

I saw him give a slideshow once and he looks like the last of the heroin addicts. But he is super-burly. He does not write books in English, so he is not famous.

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His comment on the ski-descent of Everest: - "I skid down the first 300 meters at a gradient of 55 degrees, then I removed my skis and used my crampons several times until I reached 7,700 m. Then I put my skis back on and never removed them".
:yourock:

"Skiing down K2 must be done in a honest way, as I always tried to behave. I heard of people who reached Everest top with plenty of oxygen and many Sherpas, lately. I heard Sherpas carried skis for them as well. This means corrupting the highest top of the world to an easy seven thousand peak"

Wonder what he thinks of the heli.
:fmicon:

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Originally Posted by Chaka

SheRa. I just satiated a bit of my thirst for Nepal, have returned from a five week trip to a remote region west of Khumbu/Everest, called the Rowaling Valley, for some climbing trekking. Didn't lug the skis, but man.... there are some frigging sweet areas to set up a camp and ski numerous most likely first decents topping out around 6000m for a few weeks. I could envision snow conditions being agreeable as well. You can see Everest from many of the climbing peaks. The Khumbu region, while still very cool, is much more crowded and commercialized. If being in a pristine environment is more your thing, head to Rowaling!

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Wonderful! Curious what the price tag on a little adventure like that might be.

And have you got pics? Did I miss them?

I was thinking that a trip to South America to ski around 18k would be cool to do first. But I am a long, long way from that kind of expedition. No gear, no experience, no funds. Good to have some goals though. Right now I just want to get some crampons, a bag, and a tent, and head into the Gore this summer. It's just down the street and not really overrun. I look at these mountains every day, from my home and my work. People ask why about climbing and all I know is that mountains call, each with their own voice. As for skiing down them, well, that's the fun part - the icing on the cake. :cool:

BTW, I am really enjoying this thread.

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Originally Posted by SheRa

BTW, I am really enjoying this thread.

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moi auci.

BTW, today is the anniversary of Hillary's summit of Everest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Hillary

good thread. I don't climb, but enjoy reading about high-altitude climbing.

Another source of perspective for the Everest tragedy on May 10, 1996:

Climbing High

Lene Gammelgaard (Danish) was on the Mountain Madness expedition, the one for which Anatoli Boukreev was the lead guide under Scott Fischer.

She was the first Scandanavian woman to summit Everest.

She nevers mentions Krakauer in her book.

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Originally Posted by shamrockpow

I just came across this book next to my desk. Is it a good read?:
http://www.valleybooks.net/valleyboo...tems/17572.jpg

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I thought the book was extremely good. I love the way Breashears positions climbing... it really resonates with my perspective: "Climbing has never been a question of risk taking: Rather, it is the pursuit of excellence and a quest for self-knowledge. Danger comes, he argues, when ambition blinds reason."

When one looks at the 1996 tragedy, there were many mistakes made. People point to ego, inexperience, people buying their way to the top, no "turn around time", and many other things. Ultimately, it is a combination of all of these and other unspoken issues.

Re: Krakauer vs. Boukreev. I have heard many people question Krakauer's account and his criticism of Boukreev. Should Boukreev have climbed without supplemental oxygen? Probably not... but my personal opinion is that we are in no position to judge. He went out and attempted a very heroic thing in his rescue attempt. Did Krakauer sensationalize the book? Possibly, I had never heard of any "Death Zone" prior to reading Into Thin Air. (And yes, I am aware of what happens to your body at high altitude)

Ultimately, I think that everyone can agree that it was an extremely unfortunately event. When one goes to climb Everest they are accepting a certain amount of objective risk. The goal should be to eliminate the human risk factor... the human decision factor. Investing significant amounts of money to climb and time to train makes it very difficult to keep ambition in check. This can further be complicated by the effects of high altitude.

Many people on the thread have said that "it is their lifelong dream" to climb Everest. I too share that dream and hope to have the dream fulfilled next year. I am in the process of trying to fundraise for it and will know by the end of the summer if it will come to fruition next year. Many people ask what drives me there and why I would ever want to do it… my answer parallels Breashear’s: pursuit of excellence and the amazing experience it will provide. It is not about “bagging the peak” nor just getting to the top. It is not about ego… to me, there are few things as introspective as mountaineering.

So tranzformer… to your original question what does it take to climb everest. I think that many people have provided great answers thus far and it is a laundry list. Being in good shape, mental toughness, luck for good weather and health of your team, ability to acclimatize, experience at high altitude, and keeping ambition in check. Keep the dream… I hope that you and your brother get there one day.

So, I was sitting in the Bunny Flat parking lot (Shasta) yesterday, cooking up some franks and beans and prepping my gear for a 2AM start, and this old Russian guy walks up and starts up a conversation about mountaineering with me in broken Enlgish. The minute I told him about my Himalayan ambitions, he brings up Boukreev. And, he calls Krakauer a "peice of shit!" I had a good laugh.

Anyway, that link to Mountain Zone was great, and it clarifies for me what I have trouble with about Krakauer's attitude; He seems to have this perception that guides on Everest should somehow be able to eliminate 100% of the risk faced by their clients. This attitude is not only ridiculous; it's also selfish and irresponsible.

Krakauer lay in his tent "helpless" while Anatoli was out rescuing people. End of story.

What John krakauer doesn't seem to grasp is that NOBODY can discern exactly what would have happened if Boukreev had done all the things that John seems to think he should have done. In fact, if he had, and tragedy had still struck, I can guarantee that Krakauer would have found fault with his actions.

Krakauer has no right to categorically claim that Boukreev was delinquent as a guide. Sure, the question should be asked; "What could have happened differently." However, his insistence on attributing to himself god-like, perfect judgement is just asinine.

I find this attitude to be rampant among the sort of people (Americans... that's really all I know) who hire guides for various activities. Accidents happen. People make mistakes. Mountains the size of Everest exact the penaly of death for reasons that we often can not comprehend. Anyone who thinks that a guide can prevent this is a fool.

Zach

Homeless, I think either you or I need to re-read Into Thin Air , because some of the stuff you said had no basis in the book that I can remember. I can tell you as a fact that he didn't say he had perfect judgement and he certainly never implied that he was God-like, but rather regrettful that he couldn't do more. He did acknowledge Boukreev for his rescue, and simply said that he would have done more if he had O2, which is probably true. He certainly doesn't assign fault to Bouvreev for the deaths - Doug Hansen's death was clearly Rob Hall's fault - as was Hall's own death. Andy Harris' death could probably be assigned to Hall as well. As Tom E. Hawk so eloquently put it, this was a case of ambition taking over reason.

There are many quotes in his book that say that guides can eliminate a finite amount of risk, but he never says 100%. His right to say that things would have gone better had Boukreev used O2 is based on the fact that he was a journalist and he was charged to write the events as accurately as possible. Whether or not Boukreev was right to have not used the O2 is debatable - but his ability to rescue more people with O2 is a much easier argument. Yes, it's speculation, but it's also a pretty good bet.

Pube,

My comments were a response to what he said in his lettters to Mountain Zone... and, I'm going at tone and attitude. I think that's what rubs people the wrong way about his account.

Zach

The following is a quote of a daily dispatch from an expedition that two of my good friends are on. Thought you might like it...

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This weather window may prove to be quite short. We are all hoping that the members are given the chance to stand on the summit by the goddess of Mt Everest - Sagarmatha - Mother Goddess of the Earth. As one of the sherpas told one of the members before leaving BC - pray to the god and not to the girls.... Advise to be heeded if you wish to summit with the support of the sherpas and the goddess Sagarmatha.

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video

.......

I don't know much, and I don't know your ability.

Me, I am still working on The Eiger. :eek:

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Originally Posted by TeleAl

Me, I am still working on The Eiger. :eek:

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"North face of course....." Clint Eastwood = The Eiger Sanction ;) :fm:

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Originally Posted by homeless

Pube,

My comments were a response to what he said in his lettters to Mountain Zone... and, I'm going at tone and attitude. I think that's what rubs people the wrong way about his account.

Zach

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Ahh. Mine were based on the book. No wonder we had different impressions. I've not read the letters to Mtn Zone.

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Originally Posted by Alek

Hans Kammerlander was climbing Shisma Pangma on that day when all those people died. A week later he climbed Everest with skis (and no oxygen) and skied from the top (minus the Step, which he downclimbed).

http://www.jerberyd.com/climbing/climbers/kammerlander/

He has skied from the top of K2 (harder than Everest) and once he climbed all 4 ridges of Metterhorn in less than 24 hours.

I saw him give a slideshow once and he looks like the last of the heroin addicts. But he is super-burly. He does not write books in English, so he is not famous.

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Kammerlander is one of the great, no doubt. I've always admired him for not going back to Manaslu.

While we're at it, mention should also go to Jerzy Kukuczka: so many alpine style ascents, winter ascents, solos, only 2nd to Messner in the 8000er race, ...

... but again, Hermann Buhl is still the mang.

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Originally Posted by SheRa

Wonderful! Curious what the price tag on a little adventure like that might be.

And have you got pics? Did I miss them?

I was thinking that a trip to South America to ski around 18k would be cool to do first.

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>>> Not cheap :( ... for our first Nepal climbing trip we chose to go with a guiding company. If I go again I will use local agencies rather than a big guiding company to help set up logistics and save some bling in the process...

>>> I hope to get a few pics up soon, still sifting through the gig of memories I brought back.

>>> Bolivian Andes are a great place to get some high(er) altitude exposure. The Condoriri region is spectacular. Logisitics are pretty straightforward as well. Enjoy!

Breashears and Krakauer were both critical of Boukreev's descent ahead of his party off the summit. I have to ask if the criticism of Boukreev misplaced? Was the guide acting independently in this case? The answer to the latter should reveal much about the former.