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Hey 13: How bout we round up all the crackers for past sins against society, of which there are many, and stick them in a concentration camp; crackerlover ... :wink:
:FIREdevil
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All a parent can give a child is roots and wings. Chinese proverb
In California you can be charged with murder if your dog kills someone (story)Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
If a dog is aggressive it's also unpredictable (like Mike Tyson) and for some breeds that's high consequence. Nobody cares about biting toy poodles because they can't really hurt you. An aggressive dog plus an unresponsible owner = unsafe. That's the issue.
how far will we take this?
further down the road will farmers be getting sued? Maybe we will ban farm anmials like cattle, horses or pigs. A rooster could kill a small kid and my friend used to get chased home by a goose every day after school that would bite.
I would like to see a list of dogs that bite people for no fucking reason and don't kill.
Not a list of dogs who typically kill when they bite people.
Other breeds of dogs are more prone to biting people for no reason.
A pit bull just kills a higher percentage of people they bite.
Edit for: If I was going to get a dog, I would get a pit bull. If I'm going to be feeding and washing and cleaning up shit after another living being then, that living being better scare the shit out of anyone who comes near my house.
When I had horses I had libility insurance in case they escaped and caused damage. If a cow or bull or horse kills someone it is shot on the spot by animal control officers. Even if it's not at fault. Dogs seem to escape this because they're "pets."Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Warmwater
If that was the case I will take the lawsuit and deal. I am not really into shooting people. I am honestly not sure if my dog would even do anything. My hope is that his appearance acts as the deterant.
Answers to Will's ??
-I have no problem with license and training of dog owners. In fact this system is more or less in place when buying from respectable breeders. My family had to jump through hoops to get our first American Staff. Good breeders will screen anyone who is interested in their dogs and they have no problem telling you that they are not comfortable selling you their dog. I am all for getting rid of any "dealer" of pits other that breeders. With the exception of rescue agencies as they perfom the same due dilegence and if the dog proves too aggresive to be retrained they regretfully but righfully put the dog down.
-Yes, I am all for criminal prosecution of unprovoked dog attacks. Any breed, any person. Obviously it has to be within reason. A dog bite should involve resitution of all medical bills as well as a fine. The worse the crime the higher the fine. If it is found that the owner intentionally trained the dog to be aggressive he/she should go to jail and the dog must be put down.
-The owners should train a dog to accept this kind of behavior. A good dog, any dog will put up with a lot of crap. The only excusable attack would be from some direct violence to the dog or its owner/family. Even then I would wish it wouldn't occur.
-I see your point here but I feel it is a huge mistake to just assume that all Pits/american Staff are aggressive and violent. This simply isn't the case. Even a rescue pitt with a questionable past can be retrained to be a loving family pet. I enjoy a powerful and athletic dog. Too some that "agressive" behavior is channeled in all the wrong ways. I would argue that aggressive is not even the right term. It has a negative implication that is only brought out under the wrong conditions, ie bad owner/training.
My golden and lab both make great watch dogs. They watch the thief take the TV, the stereo, the computer...
As for horses, in most states, the owner is liable if the horse does damage, ie. gets hit by a car and there is damage/injury. In states that have free range for cattle, if a cow gets hit by the car, the driver is liable for the value of the cow.
I'm all for killing a dog because it has injured or killed someone in an attack, provoked or not. On the other hand, I think it is ridiculous to kill a dog because it is a pit/rott/whatever.
As a ROTT owner, this is one of those topics that gets my blood boiling. I think Pits are also some of the sweetest, most loyal, loving dogs when they are raised properly -- or rescued and given loved - those are even more loyal.
I definitely blame media sensation for a lot of this discrimination and fear- one friend of mine who is a news producer always got calls on dog attacks, but they were usually cocker spaniels or some similar 'less dangerous' dogs, so they didn't bother running anything. I'm sure Red Baron has seen similar things occurring.
Now, I admit I made some mistakes as an owner of a 'dangerous breed' - we got lazy for a few years with my dog's socialization between 2 and 4 - and I've had to work hard the last 2 to correct it. Still, my dog is a sweetheart, and in general, a VERY friendly dog, and in 'reality' a wuss - any of the maggots who have met him will probably tell you the same.
However, when people fear him just on sight that he's a rott, he tends to react to that fear and get defensive (more as a scare tactic) - that is a natural trait, and honestly, an innate protection factor I have always been glad to have as female living alone out in the city or country.
As for fatal and critical attacks on children, yes, I feel terrible that any of those occur, and I hate that they do ever. More often than not, it does come down to two things: the (irresponsible) dog owners not paying attention to their dogs being outside/getting loose, and unsupervised kids (blame their parents) around such dogs, possibly tormenting and irritating any dog to the point of attack, by throwing rocks, sticks --what have you.
it's a matter of knowing you're dogs limits as well. kage is great around kids - loves em. i've always pulled his ears & poked him randomly just to get him ready for those types of behaviors -although kids should also be taught how to behave properly around any dog. thank goodness he doesn't have a tail to pull. But, his limit is when his paws are sore/raw/cut - he will give warning growls & snaps. And a good rule of thumb with any dog who seemingly changes behavior traits from sweet to unpredictable is to get them fully checked by a vet - something medical may be causing it to happen.
whoever brought up liability insurance, that's something that's typically under homeowners or renters' - and I use State Farm for that cause they are one of only 3 that do not breed discriminate, they just go on a 1st bite rule.
but obviously, this isn't paid for by the lower income owners- which is how i generally categorize the bad ownership issue, not just as 'minority' - because there are many white owners in the urban zones that have acquired rotts, pits, etc. for a status symbol.
I also agree that flat out banning doesn't work, cause they'll just move on to something else. same way GSDs, then dobies, then rotts, then pits were popularized in waves.
A-wreck, if you really would want a pittie, you'd better move out o' Detroit, cause they have them banned too. Ever watch Animal COPS detroit? it makes you sick watching them round 'em up there. And even the control officers and pound officials do get very upset when a sweet pitt that could be retrained has to be put down because of the law.
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Maybe some poisoned meat thrown into its yard would be better?
coreshot, you have no idea, that's one of my biggest fears that someone would do that JUST because Kage is a rott.
I have loved many rotty's. Usually sweet dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiguide
The poison meat comment was meant for a particualrly nasty and dangerous dog that has an entire neighborhood scared and on edge.
If you have ever been scared of a neighborhood nasty dog, and fear that it might maul and/or kill one of the neighborhood kids, you would understand my very limited comment.
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Originally Posted by skiguide
BWAHAHAHA........Laws.....in Detroit......bwahahaha.
You should see all the packs of wild dogs they HAVEN'T rounded up.
You want one? They're right down the street.
Careful, or you'll get arrested for robbing Kilpatrick.Quote:
Originally Posted by A-wreck
oh, yea, I have heard it said like that many times as a solution to such a problem. I totally get that - but I'd much rather see the neighborhood go about it differently & make sure animal control does its job properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
i've also always had an unnatural fear of country rednecks shooting my dog too.
(but i'd shoot back)
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiguide
Yep. Get ready for the next wave of killer [german shephards, dobermen, huskies, malamutes, etc.] dogs - just depends on which one is seen by the poor trash of the usa as the "meanest" or "coolest" dog.
Here's an interesting stat on rotts :
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Originally Posted by http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
[ Most people have no idea what it takes to really own a dog. Dogs are naturally pack animals that need to be put in their place in the pecking order socially. A dog might seem to be sweet, but most American pets are allowed to assume the Alpha role. this is no big deal in some breeds, annoying in others and deadly in the case of large powerful breeds such as Ptis and Rott's. This is a social issue, not a genetic issue. Owners that allow a large breed to assume the alpha role, and all dogs will do so if not otherwise trained, are creating timebombs waiting to go off.[/QUOTE]
I agree with the Alpha problems with american pet owners,this is why I don't get along with a lot of peoples pets,they behave as if I'm the Delta.
wow! That is unbelievably UN-interesting. It says that rotts kill people and if there are more rotts then more people will be killed. My four year old niece can do that math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
I know you didn't write so, I'm not knocking you or anything. I just think that it points out a painfully obvious fact that has no point to it.
The reason I posted it was to show that before rotts gots popular, they were owned by cool and respectful peeps. After they got popular, the fatalities went up.
It was just to prove the point that once you outlaw pitts and rotts, the next most aggressive popular dogs will be able to make the headlines and be banned.
I think many of these most viscious killer dogs are beaten with sticks and brooms to make them angry and mean so they will "defend" the measly posessions of the poor white and non-white trash that own them.
Looks like German Shephards, Huskies and Malamutes are next once the Rotts are banned.
Heh he will just have you beat down by his twelve body guards while he sneaks off in his Navigator.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13
Kilpatrick's antics get me riled up, Sublime. I'd rather not go there.
I just Core Shot's link word for word. Really interesting & covers almost all of the facets that we rookies covered in this discussion -- > http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
So, please do read it instead of just looking at the neat graphics, I think you'll find the research & explanations interesting.
I wonder if I can find some info on bite incidence by breed as opposed to just fatalities by breed.
Hey EINSTEIN, I'll say it again: I never said to ban them... And they weren't "sensationalist articles" they were just "articles" - take your head out of your arse..Quote:
Originally Posted by powder11
:wink:
It seems like I keep reading that people think if the dog is treated right and properly trained it won't attack. That is a complete fallacy. I have seen dogs who are treated right snap for what seemed no reason at all. I was bitten by a friends dog who was treated like one of the family while I was walking past his house on the street. This was completely out of character for this dog (golden retreiver). I do believe that a well treated dog has less of a chance to attack than one poorly treated, but proper treatment of a dog is not a foolproof method.
I also believe that certain breeds are more inherently prone to attacking than others. An argument could be made that the media sensationalizes pit bull and rottweiler attacks more than other breeds, but for how many generations were these breeds bred to be aggressive? I don't believe that this trait can be bred out of them very quickly. Just as I don't believe one could breed the retreiving instinct out of a lab in a few generations considering it took hundreds of years to instill this instinct into them.
I don't care for the idea putting down dogs from loving families no matter what the breed. I think this "round-up" plan only pertetuates the the fear.
So there is a big conspiracy to cover up all the attacks by Yorkies, Yellow Labs and Beagles? :cool:Quote:
An argument could be made that the media sensationalizes pit bull and rottweiler attacks more than other breeds,
There are lot more breeds out there that have "aggressive" behavior issues. Pretty much any dog in the Working class: Sheperds, Border Collies, Mastiffs, Bull Mastiffs, Bulldogs, dobermans, St. Bernards
Most Artic breeds: Huskys, Wolf hybrids, Malamutes, Akitas (nasty bastards), Spitz
I have never met a "nice" gordon Setter
Terriers: Airdales, Schnauzers, most small terriers, while not able to cause fatalities, are most definately aggressive to most anything. my parents have a dachsund that will sit under my moms chair and sneak attack just about anyone it doesn't know.
it just goes to show that 99% of the time it is owner error.
As a popular saying in the Pit circles go "Blame the deed, not the Breed"
Getting nipped on the ankle, while painful, isn't like having a Pit lock on to your throat. Look at that link from Coreshot again. It's "FATALITIES," not attacks.
Beagles can be quite mean, also Dachshunds and Cocker Spaniels. They don't kill you when they flip out, though.
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Originally Posted by 13
I posted this earlier: "I would like to see a list of dogs that bite people for no fucking reason and don't kill.
Not a list of dogs who typically kill when they bite people.
Other breeds of dogs are more prone to biting people for no reason.
A pit bull just kills a higher percentage of people they bite."
I'll bet pits are at the bottom of THAT list.
I'm really mixed about this but agree with a ban based on personnel experience. I'm sure Ive covered this before and I found it
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showt...7&page=3&pp=25
"Wife knows a family that has pit bulls, 2. Very well trained, won't fart without permission . Have another mutt which is the dominate dog(older) and a cat. We even had our dog board there. Grand kids there all the time , no problem. I've been there, supper dogs.
Ok story. This lady was walking dogs with 2 grand kids, 3-4 years. Some other kids are out with two small dogs, I guess one was off leash ran over yapping. Dogs took this as the threat to kids and lunged. Grandkids in way crying , other kids freaking, she was not able to pull dogs off and get grand kids out of way. One small dog dead. Unclear of details but second small dog now comes in to play yapping. Not sure if kids had held back but now yelling your dog killed my dog. Of course round two started and second small dog tore to shit and was later put down.
Now these were well trained dogs that never ever got away with anything but mix in stupid yappy dogs and stupid kids plus not having the strenght to control both dogs when "ON" . So there was a hearing and they had to fight not to have dogs put down. Had to pay fine, must wear muzzles outside and improve their fencing.
"
Someone remarked after I posted that it could happen to any dog. No don't think so the drive was so strong when turned on training went out the window. These people did everything right but it still went wrong. You would have needed a 200lb guy on each dog to control the situation. In this case it was little dogs , what if it had been an aggressive looking retarded kid. Could of got the same result.