Insomnia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Steve

WTF? Why the hell do they require prescriptions for certain drugs? Answer: Because they they have the potential for abuse, misuse, dependence or addiction.

---

Like Ambien?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Maybe, although I think what's going on here is that some people are applying a loose definition of "addiction." I am certainly no expert but, despite AW's false assertion, I have done past research on the matter. The experts I've consulted say that Ambien is not addictive, although, as with many drugs, some people might develop some level of dependence on it.

Here's another source: Can You Become Addicted to Ambien? . . . Experts say no -- if its used as directed.

To make you feel better I edited the post to note the qualifier that my statement is per my consultation with 3 MDs and other sources.

No. That is a false statement. I don't put a drug in my body without first doing some research, which I have, including but not limited to discussing the specific issue with 3 MDs, each of whom advise that Ambien is not addictive.

If you want to apply your personal definition of "addiction," then all sorts of things are addictive. As I said in my follow up post, questions of addiction often beg the definition of "addiction" and "dependency."

---

So, again you post a link, that link says Ambien isn't addictive if used as directed, but the next paragraph says that not using as directed can set you up for serious addiction. I said this earlier in this thread. Oxycontin isn't addictive if used as directed. The problem is that a lot of people don't follow directions.

This is exactly what I thought, you use Ambien and it makes you feel better to believe that you are taking a drug that is non-addictive. Maybe you do only use it occasionally and for just a few days, good for you. Apparently there are millions of people who don't or can't.

Addiction, dependency and abuse are all intricately intertwined. I'm not using my "personal definition". Are the "experts" that you consulted doing research in addiction/dependency or involved in the manufacture of zolpidem? Just because you talked to 3 MDs doesn't mean they're experts about this drug.

Aren't you retired? Stop being a lawyer for now, you don't have to "win" every discussion. You're a smart guy but your attempts at character assassination make you look petty.

Most MDs just spout back what the insert says. Big pharma is a fucking scam and america is in full bore. Prescription pill abuse is rampant in the states and most times leads down a much darker path. Wealthy to poor doesn't matter. Big pharma wants you to take pills they will make it as easy as they can.

I too suffer from what I guess would be called insomnia combined with other stuff I'm sure. It sucks. Have not gone the med route yet. ADHD probably has a part for me.

Good luck with whatever you choose and I hope you get some sleep. I don't begrudge anyone their choice pills or otherwise. Its a personal choice.

Character assassination? This started with you attacking me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AaronWright

Like Ambien?

---

Correct. Ambien can be misused and some people have adverse reactions to it. But that doesn't make it addictive. Words have meanings. American Society of Addiction Medicine: Short Definition of Addiction:

Quote:

---

Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors.

Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.

---

ASAM Long definition of "addiction" is here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Character assassination? This started with you attacking me.

Correct. Ambien can be misused and some people have adverse reactions to it. But that doesn't make it addictive. Words have meanings. American Society of Addiction Medicine: Short Definition of Addiction:



ASAM Long definition of "addiction" is here.

---

I didn't attack you, I said you were wrong and that used outside of prescribed directions and according to the drug fact sheet that Ambien is addictive. You claimed I was lying or making shit up.

Everything in that definition points to Ambien being addictive if used improperly.

You're wrong, just because you don't like me doesn't make that not true. Your last link "supporting" your stance says that zolpidem is addictive if used improperly. Is the article now wrong?

I don't like you? I don't even know you. Hell, if we ever met I might like ya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AaronWright

Everything in that definition points to Ambien being addictive if used improperly.

---

I disagree. It's a stretch to shoehorn Ambien use into any part of that definition. But "everything?" Nah. That definition adopts the modern neurotransmitter theory of addiction as disease, which AFAIK is the consensus definition in the medical and scientific community. AFAIK, Ambien has never been associated with "brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry," nor "individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors," nor "impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response," nor have I ever heard that Ambien use being "progressive and result[ing] in disability or premature death."

Feel free to educate me with evidence that Ambien use fits within this definition.

My reading: Steve is shrill and defensive. Aaron is a bit aggressive but is to the point. I am left wondering why Steve is willing to go to the mat in defense of Ambien.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iceman

My reading: Steve is shrill and defensive. Aaron is a bit aggressive but is to the point. I am left wondering why Steve is willing to go to the mat in defense of Ambien.

---

Maybe if they both spent less time arguing about stupid shit on the internet they would sleep better. :)

No that doesn't work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iceman

No that doesn't work.

---

It's addicting though, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by char

Maybe if they both spent less time arguing about stupid shit on the internet they would sleep better. :)

---

I've never had trouble sleeping and never had insomnia. I don't have narcolepsy but I can sleep just about anywhere and anytime.

I do feel for folks that suffer from insomnia, my ex-wife and one of my kids suffer from it and it's a tough thing to deal with.

Fuck the drugs- just lose a layer and open the bedroom windows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skidog

Most MDs just spout back what the insert says.

---

I don't know what MD pissed in your Cheerios, but this is bullshit. Most MDS spout back what they learn from years of medical school, hundreds of hours of CE, countless hours reading textbooks and journals, and applying reason to the extensive information in package inserts, not to mention a hell of a lot of day to day practice experience. It is fucking hard work to stay medically current and relevant. Not all MDS do, but most put a hell of a lot of effort into it.

But hey, you read something on the innertubes, you are the expert.

All I know is I wake up a lot around 2-3 am and can not fall back to sleep. Eating a THC muffin helps but I do wake up pretty groggy. Maybe I will just take a few hits off my wife's vape an hour before bed and see how that works for me.

I can see how dangerous it is to keep pills in the bed side table. I needed a good nights sleep so started with 2.5mg Atvian and 5mg Ambien at 10:30 didn't work. 11:30 I had 1 more Atvian and at 12:30 another and with that I was out.

Waking up was hell this morning but a coffee, concentra and a bagel and I feel like a million bucks. Tomorrow I'm going to the shrink to try something else since Atvian isn't doing shit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hutash

I don't know what MD pissed in your Cheerios, but this is bullshit. Most MDS spout back what they learn from years of medical school, hundreds of hours of CE, countless hours reading textbooks and journals, and applying reason to the extensive information in package inserts, not to mention a hell of a lot of day to day practice experience. It is fucking hard work to stay medically current and relevant. Not all MDS do, but most put a hell of a lot of effort into it.

But hey, you read something on the innertubes, you are the expert.

---

Sorry I just don't see it this way. To some degree yes they do their best to stay current, but it seems nearly impossible. I dont think MDs are trying to be evil, but I think they still lean towards writing a script and its likely the one that gets them some benefit.
In my eyes big pharma is too powerful.

God what a bunch of pot heads on here. Weed never made me that sleepy, infact it always made me anxious.

The Ambien when it was working was the best thing to happen to me. Took it and rolled off to sleep, maybe with a cool hallucination or two.

The Atvian makes my body feel healthy but my mind is still going 1000mph

Ive had good experiences in the past with Xanax for sleeping on planes. 2mg on the Tarmac and I wake up in the immigration queue. The length of the effect and the zombie like state it leaves me in is the reason I've been wary to try it for daily use.

With much sadness I've stopped drinking coffee at night. Eating early seems to help some.

I need to start exercising more. But I found that night time exercise made my insomnia worse.

Same with sex. In fact on the rare occasion that I'm actually sleeping medicated or and my partner wakes me up I know I won't get to sleep that night.

Alcohol en utter excess seems to work but doesn't seem helpful and is never worth the hang over

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by narc

Try Quetiapine (Seroquel). This stuff knocks me for six, the first time I took it and must have overdone it because I woke up at 3pm the next day.

---

Are you actually recommending an anti-psychotic for sleep? That seems quite ill advised.

I had some clients on seroquel, if you want to sit in a corner and drool on yourself, seems like a good choice.


From a fone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phill

God what a bunch of pot heads on here. Weed never made me that sleepy, infact it always made me anxious.

With much sadness I've stopped drinking coffee at night. Eating early seems to help some.

I need to start exercising more. But I found that night time exercise made my insomnia worse. r

---

yeah pot heads & pill poppers, what does that say about life ?

definatley no coffee or black tea after 3pm or I will be awake

I wake up more at night if I'm not tired enough from doing exercise, when I do I pick up a book which takes my mind off the fact I'm not sleeping, i think it stops the anxiety, more often than not my eyes close, I turn off the light go to sleep, if I still don't get to sleep ... i got the book read

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iceman

I am left wondering why Steve is willing to go to the mat in defense of Ambien.

---

Keep wondering because that's not what I did. My quibble with Aaron is about his loose definition of "addiction." Addiction is a serious and profound disease, and it does no good to throw around the term to describe other things.

Op have you tried counting sheep?

What did our great grandpa's do when they couldn't get good sleep?

They couldn't whine on the Internet and take drug cocktails.


Harden the fuck up and build something with your hands made of steel and brawn.

I dozed off somewhere during Steve and Aaron's argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Keep wondering because that's not what I did. My quibble with Aaron is about his loose definition of "addiction." Addiction is a serious and profound disease, and it does no good to throw around the term to describe other things.

---

Steve, when lay people talk about addiction, most of the time they're talking about addiction, dependence and abuse, one or all of them. I would say that unless your talking to a professional to make a statement that a drug isn't "addictive" does no good. Addiction, dependence and abuse are serious and profound problems. I'm not the only one who saw this as going to bat for Ambien. I would be willing to bet that if you didn't take Ambien then this would be a non-issue for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

I dozed off somewhere during Steve and Aaron's argument.

---

Harden the fuck up.

Addiction and habit forming are the same definition on the minds of the non medical community.

You have a problem, you add a synthetic solution = problem solved. Now that problem is solved remove synthetic solution and problem becomes worse and includes withdrawal symptoms = Keep taking synthetic solution to stay normal. This perpetuates itself over and over just to maintain the new normal the drugs created. No matter what drug, caffeine, Ambien, tramadol, crack, Xanax.

Heroin isn't addictive if you take it twice a month