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Name the last time SAR saved someone buried in an avalanche. It usaully takes them at least an hour to show up, than they mill around waving their dicks for another hour thinking about their plan of attack. Meanwhile, you have a Flight for Life helicopter buzzing around high-powered electrical lines trying to figure out whether to send in Toby and the "we're hardcore" crew to do a body recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireallyliketoski
:rolleyes: :nonono2:
you suggesting SAR should have 5 min response times to any location in a county? Name a time when it was possible for SAR to save anyone other than injured persons that already surfaced....
Just saying when people call and say "they're out and ok", SAR is wasting their time responding, as was the case yesterday. With their thinking, they might as well respond to every avalanche sighting/report in the county complete with helicopters and dick wavers.... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by LaramieSkiBum
don't think its a waste of time when you have multiple tracks down a mountain with one slide reported by the group and two actual slides. There was no way of knowing if someone was trapped in the slide they didn't see / didn't report right? I'll take over reaction any day opposed to no knee jerking, and I for one don't see that as over reaction. Had the party called in both slides, maybe so.
edit: for quoteQuote:
While we were up there we had no idea that the Y Chute had also slid and this is the real reason why SAR was there. They thought that since when we were traversing left out of the K chute, we could have skied over into the Y and then triggered that to slide. They had no tracks coming out and this is what concerned them, even if we were safe skiing the trees like we had told ski patrol. Had I known that the Y chute had also slid, I would have called them back a third time to notify them that we were still okay. I still believe that the Y chute slid as a sympathetic slide to the K before my second call to ski patrol.
You are responsible for you in the BC. (imho)If you need a babysitter(SAR) stay inbounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaramieSkiBum
good to hear you walked away without having to dig anyone out.
No shit? Anyone who knows anything above avys, even this jong, knows that. So you think SAR should stop responding to avy calls period? What about critical injuries? Say your being responsible, brought a partner, and you bust you head open or break your back by avy or snow snake. You could depend on your partner(s) to bring you down, sure, - you might bleed to death or never walk again too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
If its life and death and your 2 hours away through traffic to a hospital, ill bet you take that 45-60min late chopper or meat wagon.
I'm sure the media being there had NOTHING to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaramieSkiBum
SAR never got a "real" avy call, no one called for help in Chads group. They just tried doing the responsible thing by calling, and got bent over by "captain save the day".
The rest of your post isn't worthy of a response.
You shoulda seen those guys swarm the group when they came out...that's when I almost puked and had to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
SAR doesn't respond to an avalanche unless there is a report of tracks in, no tracks out, or a call reporting a possible burial.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
The duph mission on Quandry for example was started by a call of witnessed avalanche, tracks in, no tracks out. Duph didn't hide from the helicopter in the trees, the mission was then stood down.
In one situation with a reported avalanche tracks in no tracks out, the tracks were confirmed as animal tracks and the rescue terminated before command had even been established.
I was working the ambulance that day, as you know, and I haven't talked to any of my friends, so I don't know the decision making process.
From my limited understanding, as YOU are aware, the original call went out for 3 buried skiers. 3 triggered one slide, and the next slide buried 3 other skiers. It was confusing. The original reports are often incorrect.
I would wager, as cmsummit has suggested, that Copper Ski Patrol (certain members of which are known douchebags) might be responsible for blowing up the incident. Another possibility is an honest miscommunication between Copper Patrol and Summit County Communications Center or between Copper Patrol and cmsummit's group. Another possibility is the Toby character radioed to other patrollers to have them investigate with binoculars.
OTOH cmsummit did say his group was out when it wasn't and they were not making themselves visible. Had they been visibly exiting the rescue could have been called off sooner.
In Colorado the live SAR avalanche saves I can think of off the top of my head is the ice climbers early this season in SWCO. Also there was the skiers in Clear Creek last February. There was also big slide in the rock garden after the 03 blizzard. That's about the time I started keeping track. There are probably other incidents I don't remember in that time period, plus in other states.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
It *can* take an hour to get on scene. On a good day it is faster, especially with the Flight For Life rapid deployment.
As far as your assertion that SAR mills around trying to get their shit together for an hour before trying to enter the field, you have no clue what you are talking about. In this instance I KNOW you were aware of the hangfire avalanche danger to the potential search zone that had to be mitigated before sending in field teams.
I don't know what you are suggesting? Should bodies be left to melt out in the spring as coyote food?
So how many of these were buried, then dug out by SAR and THEN saved? How many really were dependent upon response time? What's been the average time from call to body recovery for your team? Bet it's over 2 hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
So you guys can unload your snowmobiles and/or skin up your skis, throw on all you gear and get a game plan of what you're going to and get after it with a team that big quicker? Highly unlikely, I can barely get your ass out of the house and skiing on the mountain in less then 3 hours. Now stfu bitch, quit arguing on the net and put those pictures up that you said you would do LAST WEEK.Quote:
As far as your assertion that SAR mills around trying to get their shit together for an hour before trying to enter the field, you have no clue what you are talking about.
:FIREdevil
We all know companion rescue is the best bet. The statistics for SAR digging people of is a 10% survival rate. That beats 0%.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
The San Juan guy had a broken back with a technical evac, rockgarden guy was unstable multisystems trauma with a technical evac, clear creek was critical multisystems trauma and as I recall, in Clear Creek, SAR had a technical rescue to reach the helicopter in the field! I'd say those are time sensitive.
I don't know the times figure. I would bet that it is 2+ hours average because of extremely long missions. Most SAR body recoveries are due to no beacons and/or massive trauma. One avalanche a couple years back for some snowshoers took days because of the size of the slide and the lack of beacons. SAR does the best it can.
I don't know what you are suggesting? Should bodies be left to melt out in the spring as coyote food? Families generally appreciate the closure offered by a body to bury (also helps with life insurance and all that other legal stuff).
Procedure for an avalanche deployment is preexisting. Response plan is fluid.Quote:
So you guys can unload your snowmobiles and/or skin up your skis, throw on all you gear and get a game plan of what you're going to and get after it with a team that big quicker? Highly unlikely, I can barely get your ass out of the house and skiing on the mountain in less then 3 hours. Now stfu bitch, quit arguing on the net and put those pictures up that you said you would do LAST WEEK.
:FIREdevil
The helicopter can have people in the search are as quickly as 45 minutes.
At the last Quandry mission, about the time the helo had the first team in the field, another team was already heading in by snowmobile and another team with a wilderness paramedic was leaving the trailhead (this was less than 1 hour after pageout). Speculate all you like, reality speaks for itself.
Other days, the response time could be a lot longer, especially if the area is unsafe or the search area unclear or difficult to reach.
Here is more information so that you can understand how the process works:
Generalized Avalanche Response:
The way it works the places I would be involved is somewhat like this:
Someone calls 911, the operator takes the call and information.
In one area: the operator then pages the on call SAR coordinator to inform them of the avalanche (all command and team leaders and some additional personnel, including the SAR dog handlers, will also hear this page and start preparing). SAR coordinator calls dispatch and receives further information. The situation (IE confirmed burial vs tracks in no tracks out in an unwitnessed avalanche) dictates the response. Recently most calls, regardless of whether the burial was confirmed, have resulted in an immediate SAR all call (all team members are paged) and the avalanche team activates for rapid deployment (this includes Flight For Life immediately deploying with elements of the avalanche team (weather permitting)). A nearby ski area's ski patrol may also be notified and respond.
In the other area (where response distance is generally even longer) The operator pages sheriff, fire, ambulance, and SAR. A helicopter may be called as well. A nearby ski area's ski patrol may also be notified and respond.
In both areas agencies may respond into neighboring counties because they are actually closer than the agencies in those counties.
Additional assets may be requested (Water Rescue (around a lake)and HazMat (road)).
Helicopter Response(depending on time, availability, and weather):
Assuming an avalanche dog and snow tech haven't already loaded at the hospital, Flights will fly to the ski area closest to the route to the avalanche that has an avalanche dog and/or snow tech available (ski areas report in every morning which have available avi dogs). If Flights is first on scene, then it flies over the area to better determine the situation (they have found the tracks in to be animal tracks) and if it is safe (I believe the snow tech makes this determination) they land a team a safe area (this team will at least have 1 EMT-B). Flights may carry a RN and EMT-P as well. Flights can shuttle additional personnel and equipment to the scene and fly out a patient.
Ground Response:
Sherrif deputies will respond first to the trailhead. In some areas the FD will also respond to the trailhead and establish command.
Volunteer SAR will respond from the various locations (their jobs, homes, mountains) around the county with equipment, personal and team vehicles, personal and team snowmobiles.
Field teams deploy as they are formed and transportation is available:
1. Hasty team, small number of people to go in and do a hasty search (beacon search, dogs (initial or additional), scuff search, hasty probing, RECCO (depending on team and availability), etc etc etc)
2. Secondary team (additional searching, probing, RECCO if not deployed (depending on team), more dogs, initial technical rescue, etc etc)
3. Support team (medical, heavier equipment, additional personnel (especially for probe lines, additional technical rescue, etc et)
Medical: In one area I am in where the SAR team doesn't have a large highly trained medical contingent, the pro ambulance service operates a team with EMT-B/IVs, intermediates, and paramedics, that may respond in the area via snowmobile significantly faster than SAR depending on the area, they may or may not do this for an avalanche (depending on conditions and the avalanche experience and training level of those medical personnel involved, some only have avalanche awareness, some are experienced BC types practiced with beacons and with avi II).
In Summit County, the SAR team has 14 EMTs, 5 OECs, 5 WFRs, and a Paramedic. The local ambulance also has wilderness paramedics on call that can be deployed to the field by helicopter or SAR (they often arrive for the support team).
On multiday missions and/or missions that require large numbers of rescue personnel (read probe lines large avalanche field) mutual aid can be requested the CSRB (Colorado Search and Rescue Board) which will relay the request to other SAR teams around the state.
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I liked your comments on the other thread
OK, BlurredElevens I'll name one SAR job where someone in an avalanche was saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
February 15, 2004: Herman Gulch, Colorado. I was on the second lift of personal to the accident site, and I was the snow safety tec on that job. If SAR and Flight For Life had not been there the victim would not be alive today. As it was, when we packaged him up and airlifted him out, he had no feeling from the chest down. None of us thought he'd ever walk again. Guess what? He's now able to walk and doing the sit ski program at Eldora.
Instead of bashing the SAR and ski patrol guys maybe you should say a silent pray of thanks, that there are folks around with the skills and knowledge willing to help in an emergency. You never know, when it could happen to you, right?
Halsted Morris
CAIC
That's great, but 99% of burials will be dead by the time you show up.
[/irony]Quote:
Got pics?
You forgot to mention that Bensons partner Johnson is the only reason the guy was alive when you got there after performing cpr on him. I do commend you on getting him out of there to help so quickly though. You can't be thanked enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
Of course SAR/Patrol is needed, and I appreciate and am grateful for them, but there's so much bullshit surrounding it, it's rediculous.
I was there yesterday and saw the smirking attitudes of all the SAR and Patrollers yesterday when Chads group came in. The attitude of most was like"haha, we got you fuckers"!!! This coming from the same group of people that are supposedly there to help these guys and/or save them because they really care for people....
There are aged members of SAR such as Glen who I truly think are there to help people, and aren't there for the curiosity of seeing dead people or playing hero. From what I've heard about you Halsted, you're of the same cloth and your experience, attitude and expertise are more than respected by myself.
Blurred
Just wanted to second every single thing you said here.
and to add this:
Gotta respect SAR for sure, but when it's essentially a miscommunication/mix-up scenario, they shouldn't be looking to blame the skiers, who took care of themselves, ultimately needing no help. A false alarm is just that, and it's ugly when SAR/media can't just leave it at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
i don't know what you saw yesterday but my experience probably differed vastly from yours. i do know however that their job is a tough one and they often have to cut up and make light of the situation sometimes just to keep sane and do the job. it is probably a great relief for the SAR members when they arrive and realize that they won't have to pull a body out of the snow. at that point they will probably cut up a little and get a little ticked because they were pulled away from their lives for a miscommunication. they just have to make the best of a bad situation and we should recognize that.
i'm not speaking to how patrol may or may not have acted. i don't know how those guys are there. this was in reference to the guys pulled away from their non-snow jobs etc.
I'll third the typical over zealous S&R mentality, but why would a bc skier call a ski patrol about an avalanche that's not in bounds if they didn't want help? I don't get that part. It just screams gaper in distress to me and most likely the patrol (not saying these guys actually are gapers but the call might have lead them to believe so). What goes on outside Coppers ropes, should be of no concern to their patrol.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
I believe they called to tell them everyone was okay, so patrol wouldn't look and see the slide and dispatch SAR. Obviously, the Copper patrol didn't understand that everyone was okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
^^^^
They did the right thing by calling in. If they weren't sking a high visiblity area then calling in wouldn't be nessisary. This was a long fucker right? - we need some pics so we can understand the magnitutde of it.
As long as SAR people are enthusastic about their duty, I don't really give a fuck about their attitude. If it takes the sort of attitude you guys are describing to get the job done and these are the best people available, so be it. I've seen it too, with chemical plant and mine emergency response teams. They get off on the shit and have an attitude about it - who gives a flying fuck? The day you need their help I'll bet you could care less. The bulk of rescue team members i have come accross don't have the attitude, but they care about the people they work with , and they get off on the excitement of the training and the searches.
The bulk of these people are not there because they depend on SAR for a job correct? Here in wyoming i believe the bulk of SAR in most counties are regular joe shmoes who volunteer, they are not doing it because they have to. Is this the case in CO and UT? The rest are sheriffs - some of which (caution major stereo type) get off on the power trip and excitement - again so what? Anyone who is willing to put their life in danger or take the time to help when my friends, family, or self need it, for little or next to nothing in repayment but the experience, is a ok in my book.
Lou, my experience with patrol at various areas is that they respond to avi events outside their boundries all the time. I wasn't there so I'm not gonna say I know the facts, but it sounds like the skiers were trying to "call off" SAR/ patrol. The situation got sticky when members of the party were concerned about being arrested/ losing their jobs etc. and were not 100% honest with their location. Whether or not to respond I don't think is really in question. I know that if I, a recreational skier, were to witness a slide with no apparant tracks out, I would respond. I've done it before and I'll do it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler
Note, I'm just a critical as anyone about current SAR methodologies. I volunteered with Grand Country SAR but quite after becoming frustrated with their proceedures. I seemed to be that they were more concerned with deloying all their toys, than truely effecting a rescue.
It does start with an L.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
It would be really innapropriate for Lou Dawson to come on here with the DD alias. I can't believe that's true.
Lou - I heard you lurk here. Please introduce youself to us. I personally would truly appreciate your presence here.
I'm familiar with the path in question and I have seen all the photos/video of the slide. I don't care how visible it is. It is not the job of the Copper Patrol to monitor the bc. S&R should only be dispatched at the request of the party in question. Obviously that was not the case here. As a backcountry skier, I take 100% responsibilty for myself and partners and expect nothing else but to be left alone. Assuming that everybody needs to be helped is a crock-o-shit.
LSB,
Not sure about Summit County, but most S&R teams in CO are mostly volunteer. Unfortunately in my area (Routt County), the gung ho attitude that we've mentioned keeps many of the most experienced and skilled people from participating. Particularly the backcountry skiers.
Shera, we've all known it for a while now ;) that's why we're always in his blog :D :D