Brush with a smallish slide.

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I'd like to know if I'm underestimating the burial ability of that size of an avalanche.

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Could you have stood up in the middle of that avalanche without being knocked over? Didn't look like it. Therefore, it was big enough to knock you over and burry you. But if it was so small, you should have just skied it out like they do in the movies. You can't surf them like waves, they churn and drag you to the bottom. Once the snow stops moving, it turns to concrete. Go burry yourself under 1 ft of avy debris and see if you can sit up, it'll make you not want to fuck with even "smallish" slides.

In order to claim "Risk Tolerance" you must first understand the risks involved.

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In order to understand my risk tolerance a bit better, it should be noted that I partake in lots of similarly-consequential activities outside of skiing. For example, jumping into pools, rather than rappelling, while canyoneering in a remote canyon on the fringes of Lake Powell, or free-soloing a low class 5 route, without beta, on the north spur of Mt. Powell, deep inside the Gores. I do have a high risk tolerance, in most activities. For me, it's a part of living. For others, it's a stupid decision.

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You sound a lot like that airbag chick from zuma. :biggrin:


You skied a line, kick off an avalanche, posted it on the internet and then are going to act like it wasn't a big deal to show how gnarcore you are. Here's to you, GoPro Hero guy. [/bud lite commercial]

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

I certainly wouldn't be doing this with a good chance of death on the line, but I do gamble some when it comes to injury in my other activities (mtb, canyoneering, climbing/mountaineering).

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Being injured and needing rescue could involve more people than just yourself:
http://www.summitdaily.com/article/2...ntProfile=1055

Not that we don't all go into the backcountry where evacuation would be costly and difficult, but something to think about before you go bragging about it on the interwebs.

Speaking personally with the 'airbag chick from Zuma', she didn't even think the slope would slide, and was not comfortable with the consequences if it had. Quite different.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Could you have stood up in the middle of that avalanche without being knocked over? Didn't look like it. Therefore, it was big enough to knock you over and burry you. But if it was so small, you should have just skied it out like they do in the movies. You can't surf them like waves, they churn and drag you to the bottom. Once the snow stops moving, it turns to concrete.

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Not stood up, but certainly sat up. Or at least, sat up as it began to slow (as it hardens). I've seen numerous people in similar slide flows, several in person. These are personal experiences, or related from personal experiences, reinforced up by numerous accident reports and case studies that I've read. That is where my assessment of burial risk is coming from (not from movies, etc.). What point of view is yours coming from?

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

You skied a line, kick off an avalanche, posted it on the internet and then are going to act like it wasn't a big deal to show how gnarcore you are. Here's to you, GoPro Hero guy. [/bud lite commercial]

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If you really think that's what my attitude and perspective is, then you're as dumb as dos bolsas. I've already stated the 3 reasons why I started this discussion. None of them are even close to what you suggest. The reason I threw it into the video, was to emphasize others to be careful (hence the ending text). This schtick is getting old, but I'm not surprised a few have stopped by to regurgitate it. I'd like to keep the discussion relevent - thanks.

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Being injured and needing rescue could involve more people than just yourself:
http://www.summitdaily.com/article/2...ntProfile=1055

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I'm well aware of that. My risk of injury is not just relegated to the result of avalanches, however. It's a year-round thing for me. For this reason, I have my CORSAR card - the only thing I'm aware of that pays into this, but I'll look into the backcountry insurance mentioned in the article. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

whats the difference tween side and backcounty again? I forgot
are 2 sidecountry days = to 1 backcountry day?
how many feet outside the resort does the sidecounrty end and the backcountry start?
if you don't ride lifts is it backcountry by default?

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Well, not that anybody should give a fuck about my opinion,
The way I look at it, sidecountry is where the lifts take you up, and you ski out of and back into the ski area without skinning or bootpacking
slackcountry is where you skin/pack up a small distance (<1000ft), and most of the vert is still gained by the lift, ski back into ski area
backcountry is anything that is more work than the previous two.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Speaking personally with the 'airbag chick from Zuma', she didn't even think the slope would slide, and was not comfortable with the consequences if it had. Quite different.

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Meaning what?
That you were comfortable with the "consequences" of your stupidity?




heh-she actually thought it wuldn't slide. her slide was, like, so unpredictable. you just can't make this shit up. so awesome.[/

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Originally Posted by JoeStrummer

OP - I think you're a bit casual with the potential for things like "partial burial" and a "few broken bones." But what do I know, I paid $11 for an overcooked resort cheeseburger today and was shitting my pants within 90 minutes, so my own risk-benefit analysis isn't too good.

In the end, your choices are your choices and one man's auto-erotic asphyxiation in a church closet with a strand of barbed wire around his nutsack is another man's missionary position with the lights off in his own bedroom.

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POTD


678

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Originally Posted by dos bolsas

Meaning what?
That you were comfortable with the "consequences" of your stupidity?

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I was comfortable with my overall assessment of the risk - the probability of it sliding, mixed with the probability of me being caught, mixed with the probable consequences.

Dino has brought up some good points - mainly the overall subjectivity of judging the probability of being caught (and other less objective factors). And Nate has brought up some good points - enough to make me spend more time analyzing what the probable consequences would have been. This was what I was hoping to get from this thread. If anyone has anything constructive to add, along these lines, I'm all ears. I'd love to hear from personal experiences with slides, both in being caught, and the consequences of such. The experiences are far and few between, but the possibility of learning from them are huge - why keep it to yourself?

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

comfortable
assessment
probability
probability
probable consequences
subjectivity
judging
probability
objective
probable
consequences
constructive
personal
consequences

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nice babble.




the reason we are giving you shit is not because you had a close call;
its because of the stupid shit you're spewing.

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Originally Posted by dos bolsas

the reason we are giving you shit is not because you had a close call;
its because of the stupid shit you're spewing.

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Yawn. Care to contribute something useful yet? Or are you just upping your postcount and superiority aura?

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Yawn. Care to contribute something useful yet? Or are you just upping your postcount and superiority aura?

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keeping you from posting stupid shit is useful.
helping you understand that you're a poser is useful.




and why would anyone care about post counts?
i mean, i can see you keeping track of your post count, but that's because you are you.

My observations of this entire thread are that you need to be more careful, Brian.

With that said, you are also in a different "risk factor" zone than many of us, including me (as you know).

Lindahl and I, including many others have had great days in EV last year and he has learned a lot from various partners and knowledge bases...but that is a constant process, and many of you posting here were at that point at some time. Hell, some of you have some pretty fucking hilarious posts from the early 2000's regarding EV if you do some searches (you know who you are).

I would rather have someone posting up their own mistakes and slide discussions to the masses here and trying to have an open conversation than just continuing to blast down Big Horn, Racquet Club, and Timber Falls assuming that "nothing will ever happen" to them.

Keep skiing, keep living your life. Just don't expect others to be happy about it when they care about you and/or don't want to drag your body out of the chutes and put their own lives in danger.

I will gladly ski EV with you again (I haven't been back there once yet this season), but you know me...in that lower risk zone than you :) I know you would have eventually found a lot of those lines that you have in your video without myself and a couple of others, but I feel partially responsible for getting you hooked on the crack that is Big Horn, haha.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Despite good pit results, we went into the terrain with the expectation of high likelihood of setting a slide off.


I recognize that not all would be equally comfortable in such a scenario.

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how did you justify this to yourself? Even with excellent terrain management, familiarity with the area, going into an area with the expectation that you are going to start a slide just seems like asking for trouble. If you had fallen on that last slope, or it broke far wider then you thought, you could have been swept down and gotten seriously fucked up or died from trauma alone.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Speaking with the airbag chick from Zuma, she didn't even think the slope would slide, and was not comfortable with the consequences if it had. Quite different.



Not stood up, but certainly sat up. Or at least, sat up as it began to slow (before it turned to concrete). I've seen numerous people in a similar slide flows, several in person. These are personal experiences, reinforced up by numerous accident reports and case studies that I've read. The movement of the slide wasn't significantly deep - 3' at most. That is where my assessment is coming from (not from movies, etc.). What point of view is yours coming from?



If you really think that's what my attitude and perspective is, then you're as dumb as dos bolsas. I've already stated the 3 reasons why I started this discussion. None of them are even close to what you suggest. The reason I threw it into the video, was to emphasize others to be careful (hence the ending text). This schtick is getting old.

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I see the difference, Meesh called it occupational hazard, you aren't even getting paid. That's a shame. And the fact that you thought it would slide and she didn't does nothing for your case.

OMG! You've seen people sit up in 3' slides before AND you've read snowy torrents?!?!?! I have met my match.

Seriously though, anytime you A) post GoPro footage of an avalanche, 2) ask for people's opinions, G) admit that you thought the slope might slide but went anyway, 9) brag about your risk tolerance (5th class in the Gore!?! can I touch you?!) You are setting yourself up for ridicule and failure.

Oh, I realized I failed to address why I made the distinction between backcountry and sidecountry. That distinction was made because as you spend more time in a location, one better understands the terrain and the general sun, wind and thermal effects.

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Originally Posted by PowTron

many of you posting here were at that point at some time....... I would rather have someone posting up their own mistakes

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Totally agree.

Its whole defensivenss, justification, fake "analytical" blathering that's wrong on so many levels.
His responses, while bewildering and yet humorous, do shed light as to the motivations and thinking (or lack therof) of what we've all been seeing in the backcountry recently.

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Originally Posted by dos bolsas

Totally agree.
Its whole defensivenss, justification, fake "analytical" blathering that's wrong on so many levels.

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Well, I WILL agree with you on that with the justification part.

Lindahl, next time I see you I am going to punch you in the face and then go ski laps with you ;)

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Originally Posted by mc_roon

how did you justify this to yourself? Even with excellent terrain management, familiarity with the area, going into an area with the expectation that you are going to start a slide just seems like asking for trouble. If you had fallen on that last slope, or it broke far wider then you thought, you could have been swept down and gotten seriously fucked up or died from trauma alone.

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The probability of it breaking far wider than I thought was extremely low. The two old slides and dense trees played a role in that assessment, as have previous observations in that area. If I am wrong in this assessment, then certainly that would be a fuck up. Similar, but not in the least to the same degree, as the fuck up in Stephens Pass, where they assumed they were in a safe zone.

The chances of me falling while skiing that slope was a probability that I was willing to gamble injury on. I make that gamble quite often outside of avalanche danger, often times with a higher probability. I don't see how it's any different when making that gamble with avalanche danger?

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

brag about your risk tolerance (5th class in the Gore!?! can I touch you?!)

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It's not about bragging. It's about explaining that I'm comfortable with the fact that I may be seriously injured if I misjudge my abilities, or the terrain - something that few people are comfortable with. I find it an enjoyable personal pursuit, even. I don't feel like that makes me better, more hardcore, or more superior. Just different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dos bolsas

Its whole defensivenss, justification, fake "analytical" blathering that's wrong on so many levels.
His responses, while bewildering and yet humorous, do shed light as to the motivations and thinking (or lack therof) of what we've all been seeing in the backcountry recently.

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It doesn't help at all if you make claims without backing them up with reason. I don't operate on emotion (hell, I'm an engineer). If you want me to "see the light", you'll have to explain it.

Armchair quarterbacking aside,that is a pretty cool POV edit.

what would Mc Roon know about being hurt in an avy ;)

keep yer hands still rookie

Be careful. You don't know as much as you think you do with only a handful of seasons of b/c skiing and a course or two.

If you want to go out in higher danger and ski obvious avalanche paths that you "know" will avalanche and claim that you're just operating within your risk tolerance then feel free, but if you're asking for constructive criticism I think that you went too far out on a limb.

Even a small slide could easily step down into the deeper slab/depth hoar. You probably had a couple tons of snow moving.

I also think you need to ask yourself if such a run is worth the possible consequences given the risk of a slide. If nothing else your described "worst case" could easily be a season ending bone break (death is more likely your worst case) - is that one face worth ending your season, not to mention your life?

Edit to add

I do like the videos, keep it safe so you can keep them coming.

The way I like to think about avy danger is that I never want to trigger one. If you don't trigger one then you don't have to speculate about the consequences. I've been skiing BC in Colorado for 20+ years and have only triggered a few small slides. This is one of the worst years in a long while for the depth hoar and that = deep slab instability. The best way of avoiding the danger IMO is to be hands off when its instable like it is now and go hard when it is stable.

it's pretty arrogant to minimize the potential injury from that slide in my ignorant opinion.

Not saying it applies to everyone, but this is the first thing that came to mind here:

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j.../tremper-1.jpg
(From Tremper's Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain)

That slide was no joke. I'm glad everyone was safe this time, but what if your "safe zone" wasn't so safe? The more confident you get, the more likely you are to have this happen in a not-so-safe area. What if someone falls on the landing and triggers the slide? Last week's slide at Stevens Pass killed 2 very experienced people that were waiting in the trees in their "safe zone" that didn't end up very safe.

I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but just some things to think about.

*DISCLAIMER* I've read a decent amount of the thread discussion, but honestly, not the whole thing. Hopefully I've read enough to get a solid handle on the situation. */DISCLAIMER*

Anyway, here's my $0.02.

Potential For Slide:
Regardless of how you came to the conclusion of the "high likelihood" for a slide (which was obviously correct), I'm curious what you mean by "high likelihood"? If you thought that the slope was more likely to slide than not, then perhaps this was a valuable experience for you given that you ended up being unscathed. It may help you more deeply understand your risk assessment in relation to your risk acceptance. More on that later (in the Risk Assessment and Mountain Respect section).

Personally, my idea of a high likelihood for a slide is something like a "10% chance" of avalanche. This is not easy to gauge and it takes a crap load of experience to do it well. Also, in high likelihood cases I like to try to test the slope in some way that I don't get caught on it. Ski cuts can accomplish this, but they are not always a viable option and again take a lot of experience and training to do correctly. If testing the slope is not an option in a "high likelihood" scenario then I think it is a good idea to back down...and this is coming from another person with a fairly high level of acceptable risk. Perhaps this is one thing you could have done differently.

Whether or not a slope with high likelihood of avalanche should be skied is not a black-and-white issue. There are a plethora of factors that go into that decision and I'm not even going to begin discussing them now.


Risk Acceptance and Mountain Respect:
No matter where you ski, inbounds or out, there is always some level of risk (thank you captain obvious). I'm not saying this to justify Lindahl's actions, but for the armchair quarterbacks out there just keep this in mind...how many of you are comfortable skiing a groomer super fast with other people around?...how many of you are comfortable skiing fast through the trees?...how many of you blaze down a snowy highway to get to the mountains for a ski day? Before you crucify Lindahl and act like you never take any unnecessary risks, just consider that. A lot of you do it every day.

Now to Lindahl, I'm really glad you came away from this unscathed. There is no better way to learn about avalanches than to be around them. Unfortunately, being around them is quite dangerous. I know you have a high level of risk acceptance. I hope this experience helps you gain a deeper understanding of the actual risks you're actually taking. Much of the time, people may think they are fine with the possible consequences of a given activity, but don't truly understand it until they see those consequences.

You thought it was likely to slide and you skied it anyway because the risks were acceptable to you given the rest of the scenario. Quite bold, but I'm not one to judge your decision as long as you truly know the risks and can honestly assess your ability to cope with them.

Like you said, this certainly wasn't a huge slide and it didn't move all that fast. But, it was obviously still quite powerful. I'm 6'4" and 235 lbs, and even that small slide would be enough to bully me around. Even the small ones deserve our respect. I'm not going to pass judgement on your statement that you'd ski the line if you had to do it over again, I just hope that you would be making that decisions with the deeper understanding of the consequences. I'm not one to tell you how much risk is acceptable for you, but hopefully this experience gave you a better idea of the risks you're actually taking.

I repeated myself a few times...I did that on purpose.

My goggles fogged up today and I took a tumble because I couldn't see a substantial bump in the snow. I had a close call with a tree because of it. I'm still going to ski in the trees, but after today I have a better appreciation for how dangerous it can be.

I also skied by an unknown person on the cat track today in a Texas Tuck with my pants down...full moon. You never know when something crazy may happen in the mountains. :wink:

High Likelihood (your evaluation) + Critical/Catastrophic Severity (your and others evaluation) = High Risk

You mitigated the risk it seems. Spotters, safety zones, etc.

How many time your mitigation will work before the odds catch up with you? Was it really the mitigation that prevented an accident?

If you have this level of risk acceptance, I would assume you are fairly comfortable with dying if you continue to accept these circumstances.

I work in a catastrophic severity line of work, but the likelihood of an accident happening is still low. And the frequency of the event is low. This puts me in the "high risk" category.

I have personally accepted that it may kill me, and can respect someone else making the same decision. Just make sure you really understand the consequences.