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My point, take it or leave it... It would have been more productive if you would've posted what you have above instead of what you originally posted. This is a discussion forum. If you don't agree with Trackhead, then why not make your point (like you did above) rather than making ad hominem attacks? (e.g., drivel, elitist, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
I'm gonna have to go with truth on this one. Its called a ski DESCENT and it certainly makes a differance how you get up there. But, I'd love to see you huck a 20+ footer on a 40+ degree face with exposure and sluff+ in your AT gear. I'd also love to see you get up top of a "big mountain" with your fatty race stocks, burl boots and greensprings, with alpine trekkers. :rolleyes: The varience that correlates to big wave riding is HOW its skied not neccesarily the terrain or exposure, but the actual fluidity and aggressiveness of the line that is appealing.
Personally my favorite flick would include both ski mountaineering/alpanism and "big mountain" with histories and focus on the ascent when it matters.
I'd air the 20 footer and roll to my death seconds later. I suck, I know I suck, and I have always sucked. I'm ok with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKturnanburn
Look, I'm not knocking their skiing ability, I never have. It's clear they have superhuman ability and testicles the size of Texas.
This is actually a good point. I essentially agree with you, that in a large part of AK, how they get to the top might not matter as much. And a film focusing on the ascent/descent in areas such as the Tetons or Colorado, and on the descent in remote areas of Alaska would be a good balance.Quote:
Personally my favorite flick would include both ski mountaineering/alpanism and "big mountain" with histories and focus on the ascent when it matters.
Here's a thought for you. What if some person came along and started paddling into these monster waves without a tow in. Then a few years later this became the standard, to paddle in without a tow. Would you look different at the tow in crowd?
Heli descents negate 99% of the decision making process. They eliminate most of the logistical struggle in seconds of flight. They leave only a 60 second descent to be had. By climbing something first, you factor in the avy hazard on the climb, rising temps, rock fall, fitness/fatigue, and perhaps multiple days to get it done in a small weather window. With the heli, you assess only your descent and the snowpack stability.
For me, heli descents aren't compelling year after year. Where learning about someones continued attempts at climbing/skiing a peak has far more depth and human interest.
To restate, these are my opinions. We are talking about films for entertainment, and these are the stories I want to here. I'm not bashing or degrading others interests in skiing.
Interesting take. So your main beef seems to be that in surfing you simply CAN'T access the 50 foot waves w/o a tow-in while the Chugach/Heli crowd is essentially picking off first "descents" every season? Or is the anti-heli vibe more driven by WPG and your other next door neighbors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
I personally, couldn't give a crap about the debate one way or the other. Both sides deserve respect. But I do think that it matters for making a more "mainstream" movie. I watched Riding Giants 3 or 4 times on my cable and made my roomates/girlfriend at the time (non-riders) sit down and watch it with me. Universally, they found the Jeff Clark/Laird Hamilton segments the most compelling. Why? Because film is a visual medium. I loved the story and the history, but to have mass appeal you need to do it like 2P said: build up the backstory, include some cool still of b/c travel from the 12th century onward, get the most articulate grizzled vets talking on film, and then wrap it up with the most compelling footage you've got (most of it from AK).
Powderwhores
To reiterate, I don't have a "beef", just expressing what holds my interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrockpow
I could care less that the Chugach folks are using a heli to pick off lines. It just doesn't hold my interest beyond the obvious visual porn of it. It's great visually, but as a story it holds no interest for me.
This isn't a heli free argument. It's a discussion about what we want to see in a ski flick.
I'm not a surfer, never have, likely never will. I don't claim to know jack about it. But saying you CAN'T access big waves without a tow in seems to be saying that the sport has reached it's climax. I doubt it. Some day, someone with the skills might be able to figure out a way to paddle into one of those. Then everything will change and evolve once again.
When the Grand Teton was skied in 1971, just about everyone in the local community didn't think it was possible. Now it's done on a regular basis. But that is another thread.
Surfing previously had a limit known as the "Unridden Realm", which the late, great, Mark Foo pegged at about 35 foot Hawaiian (70-80 foot faces)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
That was until the early 1990s. It was- and still is- physically impossible to paddle into waves in this supposed realm. Surfers simply cannot paddle hard enough to get on it before the wave jacks up. Then Laird Hamilton and a couple others started fucking around with Zodiacs, ate shit, then came jet skis.
As the PWC technology emerged, so did a whole new level of riding, What previously was the subject of lore and mystique became relatively commonplace, thus elevating the progress of surfing.
The big difference between surfing and skiing is that the surf world has generally embraced tow-surfing as the next evolution of surfing, unlike in skiing which seems to have more than its share of anti-heli, anti-snowmobile, anti-technological curmudgeonly luddites.
I've got it all worked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
http://www.southpark.dsl.pipex.com/i...i901/901-3.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar Punani
And again, this is not a thread about luddism. We have a 14+ page thread for that buried somewhere in the archives.
Posting in this thread is like being an Israeli walking the streets of Syria.
There are plenty of Israelis walking in Syria. They are called Mossad. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
I walk amongst you. An infidel is amongst you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rontele
hey, TH -- i'm generally with you. i think the industry has largely evolved to ski porn that plays well as background in the ski shop but (generally) doesn't hold my attention as there's no story there. (there*are* some exceptions, but sadly they are few and far between.)
i love seeing soulful work. this *could* involve only heli descents, but more often it involves the story of the whole trip.
that said, where is the line between human powered ski mountaineering and using mechanized access.
a first descent is just that -- a first descent regardless of the means of ascent. now, i might have more respect for someone who climbed it first, but the method of ascent is a footnote.
aren't there some 14ers in CO where one can drive to the summit? i hear some folks even fly into the jackson hole airport then drive to the lupine meadows trail head.
is the only pure ascent that guy who biked from norway (or was it sweden?) to everest and climbed w/o supplemental oxygen? (side note: i believe that guy got beaten up along the way and has his bike stolen at least once.)
it all has it's place, but more than the means of access, it's really the story that i go for every time.
You're clearly more intelligent than to use the hyper ethical debate of walking from home to start every approach. That's a ridiculous argument that is way out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by upallnight
Again and again, I'm not arguing the method, just what makes an interesting story. Remember, that's what this thread is about, that's why it was started.
It's not a discussion of ethics. Don't read into it, stay focused, stay on topic. I don't care about the ethics of using a helicopter/snowmobile/pack mule/sherpa. I'm trying to discuss how these affect what makes an interesting story.
i was just stating the extreme case that we can all agree as too extreme; there is, however, a very large gray area in between walking from home and getting a heli dropoff. i do both on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
i thought the board was for discussion...some time threads shift just as a conversation would.
again, for the record i appreciate films with a compelling story, far more than just a montage of lines -- whether they were accessed via heli, high-speed quad, or human quads.
in general, my most memorable descents were those that involved the most commitment and suffering -- but that doesn't mean they were the most fun or the most fun to watch.
erm, that the quality of descent/riding is more interesting than the backstory? You've taken the luddite view that the means of production is more important than the end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
Anyone who's watched paddle-in big wave will disagree - it's a dude praying for his life shitting his pants with few exceptions (not much different than heli/bile skiing). Towin surfing is shredding - progressive surfing at it's best. Not much different than AK skiing.
Towin/Heliski/bileski aren't my scene, or why I participate - but they are much more interesting to watch.
As for compelling story - this is yet another area where surfing as trumped skiing. Most topnotch surfer will admit is a prominent facet of their life as a waterman - not the only facet. Skiiers and climbers are of the, IMHO boring, view that their sport is the sole constituent of their existence. As boring as the MBA or CPA, just with better scenery. Just one reason why I cringe to see them interviewed.
Bill Briggs: Skier/climber/musician/philosopher, quite a cool and interesting guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
But I see your point.
No, it's an integral part of the end result.Quote:
You've taken the luddite view that the means of production is more important than the end result.
a lot of people just like to watch the helicopters flying in the mountains and stuff. pretty weird, but it's a big part of the attraction to ski movies for some.
Just watch any Portland news station when there is a helicopter rescue on Mt. Hood.
well-said (though i consider myself both a skier and climber among other things).Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
i find that *any* one-dimensional person will grow boring in time.
hell, if one were to sleep with claudia schiffer every night, there is a point one would reach where they'd say, "eh...she's no heidi klum."
i aspire to be as intelligent as you think i am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
i live in a place where a massive earthquake will trigger a volcanic eruption that will destroy everyone in the vicinity. how smart could i be?
Amen!Quote:
Originally Posted by upallnight
Trackhead: Yes, there are interesting, genuine, multifaceted skiiers/climbers out there. Currently, I feel, they are out shined/covered by others. I feel the culture, or projected culture, has shifted from the era of Briggs. Certainly the climbing culture has.
Well, I feel like I've slept with Claudia plenty as of late, in the context of this thread. It hasn't gotten old, but I am looking at other women.;) And at no point with Claudia would I ever feel the need for a homosexual encounter, such as ski dancing. Not that there's anything wrong with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by upallnight
on a side note...every time i'm in the JHMG office, i stare in awe at the poster of the old JH News cover showing his tracks on that 1st descent of the Grand. spectacular!
But what a god aweful boring story about his uneventful solo climb up the damn thing! Or the fact that he climbed/skied it with a fused right hip.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by upallnight
That's because you have to paddle with 100% commitment. If you screw up the paddling in, you will end up getting pounded. The two most common scenarios are you get on the wave too late and get sucked over the falls, or paddling for a wave and missing it puts you in the impact zone. You turn around to paddle back out and there's an even bigger wave than the one you just missed bearing down on you and there's no way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
The hypothetical analogy to skiing would be you know the slope's going to slide, you have a good idea where it's going to slide, and you are consciously heading right into the slide zone. You have a pretty good idea the slope's going to break behind you or below you (i.e a wave breaks in front of you if you can't paddle into it, or if you're on it you're riding in front of the foam on the open face), not a slab with you in the middle of it (e.g. when a wave shuts down on you and all you can do is straighten out and hope not to get pounded too badly). The key to surviving is knowing the slide's speed and trajectory and staying one step ahead or not going into the danger zone at all. If you fall, you potentially die. You need to enter the danger zone with speed, stay fast and exit with speed.
In surfing getting in and getting out of that zone offer the most potential for things fucking up around you and this is where jetskis make things a bit safer.
My point is surfing vs skiing is apples and oranges. Big wave or tow-in surfing you know it's going to slide. Skiing you would prefer it not to slide, and indeed a lot of people don't even consider the possibility.
It seems like the same things keep getting hashed out again and again. It seems to me that ski mountaineering and heli-skiing are two different activities. (although the line has started to blur with the stuff the Powderwhores are doing) The focus of each are really different. I agree with TH that ski-mountaineering is a lot more interesting to me, but it could definitely be hard to get across what's so cool about it on film. It's also true that even a movie that focuses mostly on human powered ski-mountaineering would come up short if it doesn't have some kick ass heli-extreme skiing in it, at least if you're going for mainstream success. It seems like everybody's trying to paint each other into corners. Hopefully this Peter Jennings Productions thing will live up to it's potential - getting across the stories and complexity of ski-mountaineering along with some really good skiing footage... human powered and gnarly super-aggressive heli skiing.