TR: When everything turns to shit...

I was surprised to get such good cell reception around Fissile/Russet Lake and Cowboy Ridge when we were out a few weeks ago.

The plan you proposed sounds good but one change you could make to 3) is for them to skin up one at a time with both skis on, then you ski back down with them for the next person. Downside is you have to bootpack twice but if they are really beat up might have to.

Skiing back down Singing Pass on your own isn't ideal because if you have an accident you are screwed, and then so are the other two. If you get to that stage though I don't think you have a choice.

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Originally Posted by keksie

Thanks for sharing and posting and glad you're all relatively fine.

In the report it was mentioned that Lee you cut the slope and then stopped for some photos? Where did you stop after cutting the slope (safe spot?) and how far above you did the whole thing break?

Maybe you're right about going more "back to basics". I'm not very confident about my skills in reading snow and that's why I usually insist on using all the safety precautions like spacing out, one at a time travel protocol etc. also while in simple, mellow terrain. This is also based on the logic that if you spend much time in the backcountry then the shit WILL eventually hit the fan at some point, and at a time you wouldn't expect, but even at that point you'd only want one person of your party to get caught.

I had a lesson which taught me this, it began with a seemingly innocent situation and a supposedly very stable spring snowpack after having skied a much more threatening slope above. It ended with my skis and poles under couple meters of avy debris (found them in summer) but me fortunately on top and uninjured except of few bruises.

I'd guess from the report that it probably would've taken a working crystal ball to turn back and not ski the slope that avalanched, so coming to the conclusion of not skiing the slope might have been an impossible task for most, if not all groups in the same situation. But would there have been a way for only one person to be exposed?

edit: Just asking these questions for some education and discussion, so I hope you don't mind.

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Keksie

I don't mind at all. In my mind that was the biggest mistake ie exposing both of us to that. I don't know if it would have fractured if it was just Richard but we never got a chance to find out. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I make it a point to take pictures from a safe spot. In this case, I wasn't actually taking pictures. Richard skied on to the slope and I skied on behind him. Again, stupid, stupid, stupid -- rookie elementary mistake. Who knows why I did it. Dumb

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

I don't mind at all. In my mind that was the biggest mistake ie exposing both of us to that. I don't know if it would have fractured if it was just Richard but we never got a chance to find out. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I make it a point to take pictures from a safe spot. In this case, I wasn't actually taking pictures. Richard skied on to the slope and I skied on behind him. Again, stupid, stupid, stupid -- rookie elementary mistake. Who knows why I did it. Dumb

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To err is human Lee. And I guess, therein lies the rub.

Here's something else I think about sometimes. What if nothing had happened? How would the three of you be feeling right now? You would have gone home high as a kite thinking, wow, what an epic day, and probably feeling pretty good about yourself for making safe decisions and leaving some on the table. That's one of the sneakiest things I think. There's only positive reinforcement, and the increasingly reassuring feeling that comes from it, until there isn't.

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Originally Posted by tortoise

Here's something else I think about sometimes. What if nothing had happened? How would the three of you be feeling right now? You would have gone home high as a kite thinking, wow, what an epic day, and probably feeling prble. That's one of the sneakiest things I think. There's only positive reinforcement, and the increasingly reassuring feeling that comes from it, until there isn't.

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That's the nail on the head. I have thought about it too having just skied good runs. Asking questions like was it the correct decision even though it turned out ok? Did we think enough about what we were going to ski before we skied it? Were we in a good position that if something did slide we would minimise our exposure to it? There is no test that can guarantee a slope won't release. So it's an educated guessing game at best. One thing you can definitely control is your protocol in avalanche terrain. Having exit plans on a line and islands of safety, skiing one at a time, skiing out from a line so you don't finish in a runout zone etc. All the basics.

I'm thinking back to my AST1 course where they emphasised the importance of basic protocol of travelling in avalanche terrain. Assessing snow is one thing but will not guarantee safety, and if the shit does hit the fan you need to be in a position that maximises the survival of your party.

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Originally Posted by JimLad

I'm thinking back to my AST1 course where they emphasised the importance of basic protocol of travelling in avalanche terrain. Assessing snow is one thing but will not guarantee safety, and if the shit does hit the fan you need to be in a position that maximises the survival of your party.

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This is one thing that really bothers me. Minimizing the chances of multiple burials is quite possible if you pay attention to your terrain, communicatem and watch your spacing.

Anyone that skis Baker will see this #1 rule being violated constantly. I try to do my best to avoid it but I know I have broken it in the past.

I think it comes with familiarity and complacency. I know if I was somewhere new I would be super by-the-book, but in familiar territory you just get so relaxed sometimes things slip through the cracks.

Sometimes you do things just 'cause. Recently, my ski buddy and I skied a slope together, well, because it was fun. The safest way? No. At least we acknowledged that we were "goofing."

I find that sometimes just the big scale of the terrain makes skiing from safe spot to safe one at a time is hard on the nerves. In big terrain it'll often be hundreds of meters of vertical before reaching one. I admit to having stopped before a bomber safe spot to wait for my partner just because of the mental difficulty of going too far and thinking, what if it slides under my partner and the slide stops and I'm miles away? Even though it is not logical to think that in such terrain a slide would stop before a real safe spot.

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Here's something else I think about sometimes. What if nothing had happened? How would the three of you be feeling right now? You would have gone home high as a kite thinking, wow, what an epic day, and probably feeling prble. That's one of the sneakiest things I think. There's only positive reinforcement, and the increasingly reassuring feeling that comes from it, until there isn't.

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This is exactly on the spot. I think there must be numerous situations where I've been lucky to get away from a slope that has been sooo close to sliding. That's good to keep in mind when on top of that same slope again.



Something that comes close to this topic is the difference (which I think exists) in the European and North American mindset towards risk management and avalanches, and the way things are taught at these two different continents.

The Europeans generally (imo) stress the basic travel protocol, routefinding and decision making, while in N-A I've found the attitude to be more that of the "lets go there, dig a pit and we'll find out".

I did a five and a half day 'advanced' avy course in Austria 2 years ago and during that time we dug a single combined snowpit where we also made a rutschblock test, and that was it.

Definitely both Americans and Europeans have something to learn from each other here. And I should be digging more snowpits, even though I think that they're very poor for evaluating safeness of a certain slope and often can not be done, but still a worthwhile learning tool.

Wow! Thanks for posting the experiences and the follow up thoughts as you decompress. Been interesting for a BC n00b like myself to read and follow.

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Originally Posted by tortoise

To err is human Lee. And I guess, therein lies the rub.

Here's something else I think about sometimes. What if nothing had happened? How would the three of you be feeling right now? You would have gone home high as a kite thinking, wow, what an epic day, and probably feeling pretty good about yourself for making safe decisions and leaving some on the table. That's one of the sneakiest things I think. There's only positive reinforcement, and the increasingly reassuring feeling that comes from it, until there isn't.

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BAM! Nailed it.

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Originally Posted by keksie

Something that comes close to this topic is the difference (which I think exists) in the European and North American mindset towards risk management and avalanches, and the way things are taught at these two different continents.

The Europeans generally (imo) stress the basic travel protocol, routefinding and decision making, while in N-A I've found the attitude to be more that of the "lets go there, dig a pit and we'll find out".

I did a five and a half day 'advanced' avy course in Austria 2 years ago and during that time we dug a single combined snowpit where we also made a rutschblock test, and that was it.

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It seems to me the Alps are downright small in square km. compared to the Rocky Mountains? Is this not true? Do the European Avalanche Center gurus dig pits? There ya have it, the Rocky Mountains (and I'm not even considering Eastern North America and people tour there as well) are much more spread out, there are fewer people per square km. and fewer avalanche forecasters and guides out there per square km. digging pits--less info per area.

Where I ski there are ~3500 sq. miles in the mountain range and one avalanche forecaster with a couple others who report conditions. You can't possibly predict the conditions of a slope miles away from your last pit.

wow lee,

that looks like a long scary ride with a lot thoughts racing through your head. i am glad things worked out.

Lee,

Were you wearing that avalanche air bag prototype we sent you a few years back?

yo jon - i actually triggered that thing about two years ago to test it. It was the fanny pack prototype. I'd have liked bubblewrap - hell i would have really liked to not have gone through that at all

I haven't read through everyone's post, and so I don't know if anyone has mentioned it or not. You guys appeared to be calm and composed and were able to think clearly what needed to be done next after the event. Very good stuff.

In one of the organized avalanche rescue practices that we had done, I was one of the buried to be rescued. With only 2 cm of snow on top of me, I found it very hard to breathe with the snow compressing on the chest. Even though I was only 30 meters away from the rest of the "rescuers", it was still scary.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

Holy shit...I'm really glad you guys are all OK. Thanks for sharing your story.

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Glad everyone is ok. I am very wary of deep snow this time of year. I don't know if warming played a part in your avy but I got burned last year. A little too late dropping into a steep shot didn't really see it in all the hand pits I did booting up. A little sun chages things in a hurry. As for the sluff, doesn't take much when it's steep and moving fast to knock you aff your feet. Anyway if you guys hit those spines in the spines shot way to get after it.

Video footage from the Contour that a friend found about 2.5 years later. Amazingly the camera still worked

https://vimeo.com/50417601

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Video footage from the Contour that a friend found about 2.5 years later. Amazingly the camera still worked

https://vimeo.com/50417601

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glad you got the camera back, Lee. much respect for posting.

It's interesting looking back at this with a couple years perspective.

From my view (patrol), I look back at this as one of the "good" ones, where no one died, and the parties on scene were able to organize most of their own self rescue, and were prepared enough to have a radio with our frequency on it. I just happened to be in dispatch at the time, and it was certainly pretty weird hearing Lee's voice on our radio channel. I can still remember hearing him calling in, immediately recognizing his voice, knowing right away that something must have happened for him to be calling us on the patrol ops channel.

The thread in the Ski forum has a pretty big discussion about whether or not it was legit for them to call for a heli to get them out. I'd say it was definitely legit, and we (patrol/SAR) didn't bat an eye or even discuss if we should go and get them or not.

This is a great reminder that shit can go down at any time, even with experienced people in terrain that is, relatively speaking, right in our backyard.

The thing that I see in this after a couple years perspective is that they had already bagged the "big line", and were basically just skiing out at this point. Also, there is pretty big exposure on this particular slope, even though it's quite low angle by comparison to the gnar they had already skied. I know that there was another accident on this same slope several years before Lee's incident, involving a very experienced crew. Every time I ski under this slope, I always think about these two incidents because I know the parties involved in both, and in both cases, everyone was fortunate to escape any serious injury. Pretty safe to say that i you've just skied Fissile without event, this particular slope seems pretty benign by comparison.

Definately a sobering reminder at a time of year when everyone is jonesing to get on the snow that we should all be ready for the shit to go down at any time, even in the "bomber" Coastal Ranges. Exposure in your line needs to be very carefully assessed. The worst case scenario needs to be considered. A solid crew where everyone is dialed on their rescue protocols is a must, and a healthy respect for even heavily traveled backcountry terrain is needed.

Thanks for posting this Lee. Stoked as hell to ski with you again this winter!

Sobering.

Postman: Did you ever go back out into the backcountry? Anything changed for you? I'm about 1.5 years past a fatality incident and I still haven't gone back, but I'm going to try this year if I can. Tame stuff only at first... maybe that's all I'll ever do.

Lee: Thanks for the video... really gets your heart going just watching it.

There was a feature released today in Pique Newsmagazine in Whistler regarding this avalanche. A lot of raw and honest quotes in there Lee, a good and sobering read.

http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whi...nt?oid=2447181

There was a feature released today in Pique Newsmagazine in Whistler regarding this avalanche. A lot of raw and honest quotes in there Lee, a good and sobering read.

http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whi...nt?oid=2447181

Sobering is the word that I read often in this thread. It's the perfect word.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. This is educational to all of us.

Obviously very happy to hear fellow skiers came out fine.