John Nicoletta insulted by Op-Ed Writer

Bklyn

Honestly I am not surprised by the conclusions reached by many of the posters to that Billy Poole article. And they are entitled to their opinions right or wrong...

But the fact that they express them so vulgarly and disrespectfully is what bothers me. Just because the forum is a faceless and as distant from intimacy as one could get doesn't mean its much different than showing up to billy's funeral and spouting the same shit.. His friends and loved ones where posting in there, for fucks sake!!!!!! And all the posters whom of which where disrespectful I'm willing to bet don't even know him.

I honestly don't think its is possible to change this view point held by non "extreme athletes" in respect to what we do. I think it takes another true skier to evaluate another. The risks I take though risky are very calculated and therefore I have never seriously injured myself ever. When I tell my peers this do they actually think what I do is safe, no not at all. They probably never will. Some push them selves harder or more recklessly, some won't cross certain boundaries, some are satisfied where they are. Its all relative to the given person. But shit can happen to all of us and calculated risks can be miss calculated....

People who spend there lives avoiding all risks will never understand what we do and I don't want to try and change that. Some just need to realize there is a time and place to bash the decisions of others, not to mention an honorable way of going about it...

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Originally Posted by bklyn

Right or wrong, they think he wasted it. It's the majority opinion that snow sports are dangerous leisure activities and that those who take them seriously are wasting their time. Are you really surprised when they come to the conclusion that it's a series of stunts done for the money, or for glory and bragging rights?

We are (to quote a friend) out of sync with [mainstream] society. Most think that playing it safe is the sensible route in life. The risks I take, which are minor in comparison to these athletes, are considered extreme by many.

The question is, what could we do to change this commonly held viewpoint?

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Actually, bklyn, I think mainstream society is out of synch - period.
That so many Americans watching events like this from the comfort of their living room or the sports bar, eating popcorn and drinking beer, could sit there and judge anyone for doing something, hell, anything better and more satisfying, even if it might be considered dangerous, is quite beyond me. And I personaly believe that's what mainstream society does to a large extent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We have a country that sends kids to die in wars, but doesn't want anyone hurting themselves having fun and adventure. Yet, adventure is one of the many premises upon which they sell as a reason to join the army and get killed.
Huh??? I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by splat

Actually, bklyn, I think mainstream society is out of synch - period...

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Agreed. Still, the mainstream (majority) is of a differing opinion and we are not in sync with them. To us their commentary is disrespectful - to them it's completely rational.

It's all good to band together in our group and rail against "the man" and how wrong "he" is. It's another to change hearts and minds to our POV or to even convince others to be open to it.

TGR did a great job of adding the avi awareness segment to the DVD, showing how much thought went into the safety aspect. The athletes and organizers are taking time to scope the venue, and have put in the time in preparation and training. Average Joe doesn't see or know about that, yet they know the whole NASCAR backstory.

We must tell them our story - the complete story, because no one else will.

do you think negative comments hurt or help Medred's employment?

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Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

do you think negative comments hurt or help Medred's employment?

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I'm sure he's quite thick skinned, simply exploiting whatever sounds sensationalistic, the modus operandi of the newsroom these days, it seems. However, I hope someone points him to this thread. Maybe he could drop out of his fear-mongering persona long enough to look at the sport from a human interest angle. Maybe even attend an event and talk the some people. Wouldn't that be unique?

mainstream society is not out of sync, we are, you are. risking ones life for a sport will never make sense to most people and rightfully so. say what you will but freeskiing comps reward the person that takes the biggest risks, successfully. the harder a line, the higher the consequences, the better you are/score if you ski it well. there's no way to ever make a sport that rewards danger safe. it is a dangerous sport. as far as i'm concerned people can do as they please, if someone wants to huck 60 to hardpack in crap vis or ski a line with deadly exposure its no skin off my back.. but its pretty silly to expect your average person to 'get it', ultimately they will think its reckless and stupid.. and i think thats a perfectly reasonable conclusion. in fact there are plenty of people on this board who probably think the same way..

Splatt..to me.

"

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Cool, I'll be burning lines elsewhere while you nurse your decrepit liver

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You are a quick one splatt! But from what you say.................I doubt you'll live longer than me or my 80 yearold dad.

"

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To each his own.....which is what neither you nor Medred seem to get.
If a kid is in it to be the Next Big Thang, he's there for the wrong reasons.
I have been totally fucked up from hitting rocks in the b/c and accepted that I was about to die there. It's how I got my name here. I made it out, but there was neither fear nor regret in my thoughts, just peace in reveling at the beautiful place I'd get to see last. I figure you might not get to choose when you go, but if there's a moment to think about what's happening, one should at least be at peace with it.
But feel free to judge, based on whatever experience you draw from.
I'm glad to see so many people planning to die of old age."

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To each his own....own what? Own end?...IMHO a selfish proposition. I truly feel sorry for Nicolletta and his family and think discussion of the circumstances the led to his death is healthy and not disreptectful and could help some others to make decisions that lead to long and happy lives.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by splat

Actually, bklyn, I think mainstream society is out of synch - period.
That so many Americans watching events like this from the comfort of their living room or the sports bar, eating popcorn and drinking beer, could sit there and judge anyone for doing something, hell, anything better and more satisfying, even if it might be considered dangerous, is quite beyond me. And I personaly believe that's what mainstream society does to a large extent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We have a country that sends kids to die in wars, but doesn't want anyone hurting themselves having fun and adventure. Yet, adventure is one of the many premises upon which they sell as a reason to join the army and get killed.
Huh??? I don't get it.

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I def with you on this mainstream society is clueless, granted we all are about something. But your typical cookie cutter American couldn't buy a fucking clue.

Anybody here ever met Junior Bounous? He's living proof it's possible to rip to the age of 80 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

I’m not suggesting a public discussion, but I hope that those involved are talking about athlete safety.

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What, Greydon, do you think we've been talking about? Think about the organizers and the judges in relation to John's death. What kind of people do you think they are? Do you really think they barbarically encourage the young people at these competitions to come as close as possible to risking it all? Have you ever sat through an athlete meeting before a competition, where the organizers and judges urge everyone to ski smart, safe? What about a meeting after a competitor is hurt, killed?

There is so much love for your fellow skier, competitor, friend at these competitions. Ask anyone and they feel the same way. Which is why the accusations of insane, irrational life-risking are so painfully ironic. Freeskiers love living, and would give anything to keep doing so. I pity you if you think its a death wish. Stay inside and get moldy.

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Originally Posted by powderpond

Splatt..to me.

""

You are a quick one splatt! But from what you say.................I doubt you'll live longer than me or my 80 yearold dad.

"

To each his own....own what? Own end?...IMHO a selfish proposition.

Cheers!

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Is this how you feel about people who climb Everest, fly experimental planes, kayak, surf in shark-infested waters, ride motorcycles, have buttsex, hitchike, skydive and generally do anything that has a remotely dangerous aspect to it?

And that's it. The danger is remote, but things happen.
And when it does, there's always someone shouting for regulation.
Let's get the government involved.
They're here to help us, right?

What has been said is Aspen Ski co was filming Westfedt when he died and Aspen ski co was the resort sponser for Teleplooza and for what ?? To sell another condo and a lift ticket. So Aspen you have had people die on your slopes this season!
What they were doing was trying to get their 15 seconds of fame and a free ski jacket
sorry but I see this as the big corps using kids without regard to their well being or their life.
No different than Burton trying to sell another coat or backpack for having some kids huck themselves into space -- but as soon as they are hurt -- Burton will forget their name

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Originally Posted by powderpond

You are a quick one splatt! But from what you say.................I doubt you'll live longer than me or my 80 yearold dad.

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Don't you know? Splat is older than your dad.:FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by splat

How many people cried like Medred and wanted to stop NASCAR when Dale Earnhardt died?

Safety standards? WTF?
More people skiing at everyday levels in resorts die.
More people drown every year.
More people die doing drugs.
More people die having sex.
More people die driving cars.
People die. What are the odds on that? 100%

PEOPLE NEED SAFETY STANDARDS FOR THEIR RECREATIONAL PURSUITS!!!!!
PROTECT PEOPLE FROM DYING! IT'S NOT NATURAL AND WOULD NEVER HAPPEN OTHERWISE.
FUCK MEDRED.
I was looking right at John when he died and can only hope I'll be so lucky as to go out in the same or similar fashion.

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Actually, NASCAR issued new rules involving safety walls and new protections for the drivers as a result of Earnhardt's death.

I never mentioned people and their recreational pursuits. I did however mention that the safety at these comps is suspect at best. Lets keep using NASCAR as an example. Can anyone throw together a team and compete at that level? nope. Are there pre-race inspections of equipment purely for safety? yes. Are certain safety equipment items required and must they meet testing standards? yes. Drug and alchohol testing for competitors? yep.

See the difference? Even the X-games won't just let anyone compete at that level.

Yes I'm ok with people going out and skiing for recreation in any manner that abides by the existing rules. But comps are a whole different animal. Safety should matter and be taken seriously. A pre-run meeting and the green flag from patrol aren't enough. I don't have all of the answers but I see a need that shouldn't be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

The author is clearly a nitwit that decided to opine without doing any research.

However, IMO, the athletes, organizers, and judges need to have a serious conversation about the comps and how to make them safer. Two deaths in two years is tragic and a trend that can not continue.

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Exactly.




And as a note, I am truly sorry for the friends and families of those this sport has taken over the years. Some of them my friends.
I enjoy the exciting/thrilling/risk-taking aspects of this sport as much as anyone. These are also the reasons its important to consider taking a clear look at what can be done better to prevent our friends/family/athletes from dying.
And just like the kid who dies on a football field from a missed heart condition, accidents happen and we'll never be able to prevent them all. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Dudes,

Dont you see the answer is simple - Giant Nets set up on all the non - ski jumping cliffs.

Fall off a big cliff? Right into the net ala Ringling Brothers Barnum Bailey

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Originally Posted by gonehuckin

See the difference? Even the X-games won't just let anyone compete at that level.


Exactly.

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Actually, I race skiercross, X-Games had *the* most dangerous course in north america this year, the last two features were ridiculous. Made for TV shit show... none of the ski tour/jeep king of the mountain's were that bad, and sun valley only had issues with some features due to snowfall which slowed the track down too much so you weren't making transitions properly.

Big mountain comps are far safer in my mind that skiercross, I've seen a lot more injuries in sx this year too from fellow competitors than I have in big mountain.

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Originally Posted by GoNads

Actually, I race skiercross, X-Games had *the* most dangerous course in north america this year, the last two features were ridiculous. Made for TV shit show... none of the ski tour/jeep king of the mountain's were that bad, and sun valley only had issues with some features due to snowfall which slowed the track down too much so you weren't making transitions properly.

Big mountain comps are far safer in my mind that skiercross, I've seen a lot more injuries in sx this year too from fellow competitors than I have in big mountain.

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how many fatalities in the last two years?

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Originally Posted by powderpond

However poorly made, Meldread, has a point. It is sad to see these kids jacked by corperate mini dollars into thinking they are the greatest becasue they risk more.

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Originally Posted by fun in the sun

What they were doing was trying to get their 15 seconds of fame and a free ski jacket
sorry but I see this as the big corps using kids without regard to their well being or their life.
No different than Burton trying to sell another coat or backpack for having some kids huck themselves into space -- but as soon as they are hurt -- Burton will forget their name

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Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Again, do you think that the people involved are stupid? Do you think they're too dumb to do the math? Which tells you that sometimes at these comps, winning literally means paying the bill to attend and nothing more.

What has happened in the last couple of years? Terrible accidents. The sport is not flawed. In fact, the sport is amazing; so simple, yet so hard to do well. A few people learned lessons for us in front of our own eyes that we will never forget. I'm sure some have stopped participating as a result, but my bet is the majority now tries harder.

My advice is to watch or participate in freeskiing. These tragedies won't be an end to the sport or the start of a mutation in the sport but rather a turning point where there is a new respect present for consequence. As a result there will be stronger, more dedicated, and smarter skiers. It can and will get better.

Or quit watching and chat with Medred if you have an inability to process tragedy in a positive manner. I'm going skiing.

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Originally Posted by GoNads

Actually, I race skiercross, X-Games had *the* most dangerous course in north america this year, the last two features were ridiculous. Made for TV shit show... none of the ski tour/jeep king of the mountain's were that bad, and sun valley only had issues with some features due to snowfall which slowed the track down too much so you weren't making transitions properly.

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And this is acceptable? how so?

Thanks, Drew!

John Nicoletta was a dear friend of mine and a beautiful skier.
He did it often and he did it well. Very well.
His love for life showed through his skiing, every turn and every stomp.

...and we owe it to him to look forward and to honor his life by loving ours in the same way he cherished every minute of his.

It's not our place to doubt and question something he would have (and did) die for (skiing).

Ironically, I've found that knowing John Nicoletta during his beautiful life has prepared me to lose somebody as special as him...Because I know he'd keep his head up.

Ski Happy for John!

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Originally Posted by grapedrink

how many fatalities in the last two years?

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Zero fatalities, but in the last year alone on tour there were probably 8-10 torn acl's, probably 10+ dislocated shoulders that many or more concussions and lots of broken bones, and career ending crashes for 3 athletes.

Through all the big mountain comps this year we had 1 fatality, and probably 6-8 bad crashes with people being tobogganed off from what I can recall seeing.

The point I was trying to make is that in a "man-made" environment like skiercross that you have almost complete control over there are as many if not more injuries than an "uncontrolled" environment like big mountain.

So stop trying to control what you can't, the sport has already changed from a 'huckfest' to all around skiing and I think most of the competitors have a healthy respect for the mountains, and what they are capable of as skiers.

Skiing at a high level is going to result in tragic accidents and injuries, sometimes in death. Look at the world cup this year, there were some VERY bad crashes there too, it's not exclusive to big mountain, and I don't think there is anything you can necessarily do to prevent it... except stop completely.

This is a personal view, and I can see if you disagree with me, but it comes back to my ideals and values: is safety "our" responsibility? I mean, all the competitors are adults, no one is forcing them to ski in these comps, and by and large it's a personal choice. I am unwilling to take the risks associated in these comps; I'm sure the specific risks are higher for me than for experienced competitors, but who am I to decide how these are run? I'd like the unnecessary risks to be mitigated--I think everyone would--but's it's not up to me to decide who skis or if these are held.

Especially for big mountain comps: the money is so small that it's not like not competing in these is denying these athletes their livelihood. Deaths are tragic, but the competitors knew the risks involved and made the decision to ski as an adult. Who are we to stop them?

Well said, squatch. And alto. And Gonads.

While skiing today, a group of us watched a guy do a huck that was soooo sketch, there were guys who I would have never expected to back off that did back off. Everyone present respected the decision of the guy who hucked it (he stuck it extremely well) and also respected the decisions of those who didn't. The exposure was intense and a fall would have been ugly. The same spot took a fellow skier a few years ago. But the guy who pulled it off ranks at/near the top of the sport. I really wanted to do it, but I know damn well that I am not in shape, haven't hucked for a while, and that if I fell, I'd be done.

In the same vein, nobody who was in AK got there without earning their spot. Every competitor earned their spot through competing in other comps, was in shape for it physically and mentally, and progressed through a qualifier round. Nobody competing was either unqualified or underqualified and like my friends and me today, these people know when to back off and when to send. And just like today or at any comp, skiing means you perform without a safety net, much like Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade Center towers in 1974. Everyone ooohs and ahhhs the accomplishment of a great feat achieved. Nothing like a demonstration of a sport at the highest levels to show everyone how cool it can be. That's what the comps are - a public demonstration of the best skills involved in the highest levels of everyday skiing.

But they won't let some aged whackjob like me enter unless I prove I have the skill, conditioning and ability to do it without hurting or killing myself.
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Not that it couldn't happen, it's just that the prequalifying events prep people for the finals and only the most competent progess to the AK event.

That's the safety net.

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Originally Posted by splat

Well said, squatch. And alto. And Gonads.

While skiing today, a group of us watched a guy do a huck that was soooo sketch, there were guys who I would have never expected to back off that did back off. Everyone present respected the decision of the guy who hucked it (he stuck it extremely well) and also respected the decisions of those who didn't. The exposure was intense and a fall would have been ugly. The same spot took a fellow skier a few years ago. But the guy who pulled it off ranks at/near the top of the sport. I really wanted to do it, but I know damn well that I am not in shape, haven't hucked for a while, and that if I fell, I'd be done.

In the same vein, nobody who was in AK got there without earning their spot. Every competitor earned their spot through competing in other comps, was in shape for it physically and mentally, and progressed through a qualifier round. Nobody competing was either unqualified or underqualified and like my friends and me today, these people know when to back off and when to send. And just like today or at any comp, competing means you perform without a safety net, much like Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade Center towers in 1974. Everyone ooohs and ahhhs the accomplishment of a great feat achieved. Nothing like a demonstration of a sport at the highest levels to show everyone how cool it can be. That's what the comps are - a public demonstration of the best skills involved in the highest levels of everyday skiing.

But they won't let some aged whackjob like me enter unless I prove I have the skill, conditioning and ability to do it without hurting or killing myself.
edit:
Not that it couldn't happen, it's just that the prequalifying events prep people for the finals and only the most competent progess to the AK event.

That's the safety net.

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With all due respect to you Pat, I want to tell a story that I've never told anyone. Three years ago, I was visiting my home mountain of Crested Butte. I and a friend skied Teo Bowl which was open for the first time in years. We took the high traverse and exited via the bottom of Rabbit Ears. As we rounded the corner, we watched a body tumble down a series of rocks to the skiers right of Angle Gully. Angle is where the qualifying round of the CB comp is held. The body continued to tumble another 700 feet. LIFELESS. No breath. No pulse. Nothing.
My friend and I hustled to help. When we arrived, her head was the size of a basketball. She was bleeding from every place imaginable. I was the better skier of the two and my friend had considerable first responder training. So I skied to the NF lift and asked them to radio help. My friend stayed and did everything he knew how to help her. Patrol soon arrived. She was helped and eventually heliod to Grand Junction.

It turns out that she was trying to pre-qualify for the CB comp. The mountain offered one of their staff a free spot in the comp for one lady and one guy, depending on how they did at an informal "ski-off". The "judges" were at the base of the headwall. No patrol present. No standards other than you had to be an employee of the mountain. They didn't help in any way. The prize? a two hundred dollar entry fee. She not only was a mountain employee but she was the daughter of the former head of Aspen and at the time the head of CBMR. She didn't need the 'prize'.

I believe that she ended up being ok. Although it would be hard to tell because she had a few screws loose to begin with (Later, I found out that I knew her). None the less, years of recovery.


I couldn't tell you one way or the other if she ever skied again. But it doesn't matter. What does is that the situation she competed in was faulty. And completely avoidable. Yes she could have fell anywhere anytime, but she didn't. She fell during a so-called comp. With a potential prize. With no set safety. And she suffered brain injury and she easily could have died. In fact, she was dead.

Its time that this sport decided to take itself serious and really put some effort into protecting the athletes. I can't think of any sport where increased safety regulations hurt the level of competition. A perfect example is the UFC. Once they set rules and standards, it became much more legitimate and the athletes stepped up. You can't walk out of just any kickboxing cardio class and fight Chuck Lidell. You can't go from driving your BMW to racing F1. You can't go from playing JV football to the NFL. But you can go from being a skier to being an entrant in any of a number of freeskiing comps.

So that is the basis of my opinion. And I ask you, what does it hurt to have increased safety standards? Lets start with making sure the athletes have helmets that pass certain standards. Then how about requiring back protecting body armor. Then we can require that the sponsors pay for health insurance for their athletes. Testing to make sure the athletes are up to par in their skills. Testing athletes to make sure they are sober (yes I know guys who compete while coked up). Any finally, lets require that the athletes are paid in line with what they bring to the product. Nike sponsors Lebron and pays him a 100+m$. Skiers and especially snowboarders, bring a lot of marketing value to the products who sponsor them. Unionizing or collective bargaining would certainly help. However I don't know if its to that level yet but its certainly heading there. $10K in prize money for a first place finish is retarded. The author is right, the only ones who profit are the companies like Burton or Smith or Subaru. Time to fight back. In order to do so, athletes need to be protected.


-aaron

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Originally Posted by gonehuckin

It turns out that she was trying to pre-qualify for the CB comp. The mountain offered one of their staff a free spot in the comp for one lady and one guy, depending on how they did at an informal "ski-off". The "judges" were at the base of the headwall. No patrol present. No standards other than you had to be an employee of the mountain. They didn't help in any way. The prize? a two hundred dollar entry fee.

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^ I got my sponsorship to ski in the CB comp through one of these^