Tahoe '23/'24 - Reserve Now For Best Pricing!!!

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Originally Posted by powdork

On a related note do we know whether trauma was the cause of death, or whether it was a burial? Was he found on top, by avy dogs, or by the probe line? etc

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I haven't read the rest of the replies yet, so somebody may have beat me to it. One of my buddies is hurt right now and spent his ski team afternoon yesterday in the bar. He ended up sitting with the family of the young kid that broke his leg. They're here from Australia on vacation. They were there when the deceased was recovered. It sounds like COD was asphyxiation. My buddy is a first responder. He laughs when he tells the story about a woman being sucked through a snowblower. I've never seen him tear up, but this one got him. Really tough situation. There were a lot more burials and recoveries than people are talking about. There was another slide, burial and rescue over further into Women's DH.

There were a lot of slides by yesterday afternoon. I'm sure a lot triggered by control (big slide under the Palisades, big slide through Chute 75) but some strange ones, too (decent size slide under Red Dog).

It's a wicked snowpack out there on the NE stuff.

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Originally Posted by spnce

In my experience, patrol and bystanders are on scene with beacons long before dogs or a probe line get organized. And reco seems to be a bodyfinder.

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Yeah. RECCO=recovery. I'm not betting my life on that.

I've never seen as many beacons and packs inbounds as yesterday. I didn't wear a pack, but I did wear a beacon and put one on my kid.

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Originally Posted by LightRanger

I wasn't there, but in response to the general question, my take is like what hutash said upthread. The step from wearing nothing to wearing a transceiver is basically not a step at all. But the step from wearing a transceiver to also wearing a pack is a significant step up in fiddle factor--especially when lifts are involved. So, to me, it's kind of a spectrum. YMMV.

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That slide in Alpine bowl is spooky.

I ordered a vest to carry my shovel and probe. It's a Dad thing for me. I can't stand the thought of my kid getting buried and me not having tools to recover him.

My Avi pack is cumbersome. A vest with a shovel and probe is hardly noticeable. Leave it on for the chair rides. No prob.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

Conducting a beacon search with 20+ people around and more being added every ten seconds would be difficult if everyone is still in send mode on arrival. Not saying we shouldn’t wear beacons - but I imagine it would still be a clusterfuck of a search with lots of chaos. Props to the people that responded and dug that guy out.

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Finding a body without a beacon in a 150' wide, 450' field is a needle in a hay stack. I'd rather put a few people on duty making sure that everybody is in search model. I also think its worth carrying a probe and shovel. Hand digging after you have a strong signal is a mind fuck.

This event has changed my perspective. Before kids I just went. After kids we wore beacons. Now I think adding a shovel/probe feels worthwhile on the big days.

Sorry for the blast of replies. This whole thing really wound my brain into overdrive.

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Originally Posted by SnowMachine

Zero? The hard-core locals have been clamoring for KT since opening day. Not getting it open for a pow day is sacrilege.

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Are you new here? They don’t give a fuck about locals, they know where their bread is buttered. Pressure = financial incentive.

(Yes, patrol and mountain ops want to open stuff because they’re real skiers/riders, but that’s aside from the point)

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Are you new here? They don’t give a fuck about locals, they know where their bread is buttered. Pressure = financial incentive.

(Yes, patrol and mountain ops want to open stuff because they’re real skiers/riders, but that’s aside from the point)

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There are many faults with the corporate ski model. The office heads crunch numbers and are too disconnected from reality. People will definitely say that there's no pressure to get things opened but we all know that's not exactly true. The social media races are real.

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Originally Posted by SnowMachine

Finding a body without a beacon in a 150' wide, 450' field is a needle in a hay stack. I'd rather put a few people on duty making sure that everybody is in search model. I also think its worth carrying a probe and shovel. Hand digging after you have a strong signal is a mind fuck.

This event has changed my perspective. Before kids I just went. After kids we wore beacons. Now I think adding a shovel/probe feels worthwhile on the big days.

Sorry for the blast of replies. This whole thing really wound my brain into overdrive.

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I think if you're concerned enough to wear a beacon you should definitely carry everything else. This probably isn't a good comparison but to me it sounds like the dog poop bag people that say they'll pick it up on the way back. It sounds fine and all but it doesn't really work like that.

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

There are many faults with the corporate ski model. The office heads crunch numbers and are too disconnected from reality. People will definitely say that there's no pressure to get things opened but we all know that's not exactly true. The social media races are real.

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Of course. Reference my earlier post where I pointed out it was a Wednesday, well before the holiday weekend. For the bean counters they could have just as easily promoted that KT will be open this weekend - if anything holding back on the opening would increase interest / demand.

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

I think if you're concerned enough to wear a beacon you should definitely carry everything else. This probably isn't a good comparison but to me it sounds like the dog poop bag people that say they'll pick it up on the way back. It sounds fine and all but it doesn't really work like that.

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Hey now I always pick up my poop bags. You are correct though, the comparison is strange.

Kirkwood was excellent yesterday. Hully Gully booter on the backside was yielding many backflips. Got greedy on the last run of the day in Vista and earned a nasty shark bite, should've known better..

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Originally Posted by powdork

yes and no. it did run like that but that guy is wrong. that crown is new from todays control work. The avalanche happened after about 2" fell from yesterdays storm of 14". They would know that if they didn't turn comments off.

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Regardless, that video is some of the best, most informed coverage of an avalanche from a news source I have seen. Props to that station for actually having someone report on it who is at least somewhat knowledgeable.

Pretty scary stuff. Is it safe to assume that shit will be compacted by all the skier traffic this coming weekend?

I will be out there next week, skiing with my adult (sort of) kid. Zero avalanche gear so we might have to stick to the groomers.

Sharks on the Thunder Saddle approach and out by Jeffs and beyond took their toll on the Moments at the wood yesterday. Saw someone hit Vista from the top, looked like a ski movie!

^^^^A few weeks ago I watched a group three drop in just on the near side of the funnel. Two ladies on skis and a dude on a snowboard. All strong skiers. Two slipped in, and slipped out to the left. One of the women dropped the cornice for an eight foot drop, and got a little Hund up on a rock. She was strong through it and continued down to the right, into the exposure. Dropped another 8-10 footer to a hanging field, scrubbed speed and drop down through two more small, 1-2' bands. Fucking ripper.

I was just re reading the Hospital Air thread and and still ike wow, I've skied with those guys...

I wonder if Pali felt any pressure to get steeps open, with vailwood being 100% open. Optics for those who don't live here might matter. I've no idea if there was pressure from higher up to open. Or if patrol was happy (prior to the slide) with the opening. I doubt we will know, at least not for some time.

I usually ride with a beacon with any new snow. Like said, it is small, and helps create the habit. I usually pack my probe at 6 inches (again, its small) and throw in the shovel at 10". I ride with my BC pack inbounds anyway, from years of skiing with littles with snacks, hot beverages, extra gloves and what nots. So its easy to pack the shovel. I used to ride with the shovel regularly, when my kid was little, so we could dig out and build forts around the mountain. The view off of Whiskey Slide, looking toward the Cirque, is all time.

Stay safe out there everyone.

FWIW I always approached the 1st opening of all avi terrain for the season like a Watch Out situation in Wildland Fire. I am confident the Pali SS folks did as well.

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Regardless, that video is some of the best, most informed coverage of an avalanche from a news source I have seen. Props to that station for actually having someone report on it who is at least somewhat knowledgeable.

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Yeah other than a bit of nomenclature that gets lost on laymen his report was very good for media.

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Originally Posted by powbmps

Pretty scary stuff. Is it safe to assume that shit will be compacted by all the skier traffic this coming weekend?

I will be out there next week, skiing with my adult (sort of) kid. Zero avalanche gear so we might have to stick to the groomers.

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It's wise to assume inbounds terrain will be as safe as ever, perhaps moreso. Skiing involves some risk, as does life. (/me sees you're an EC skier.) If your goal is a ski-run view of the big blue lake, try Heavenly, Incline, or Homewood. PTOV is a few miles from the shore but also has runs with views to the lake. IMO some Heavenly and Incline runs have impressive views where you may feel you're skiing into it.

Northstar is the go to on storm days - lots of trees and few steeps so more lifts/runs open. Homewood might be decent on a storm day as well. Sierra used to be the south lake storm resort, dunno if that's true now that the forest is burnt (my guess is no trees means vertigo city).

eta: see Page 1 for local info

I hope folks are reading through the SAC report and the observations.

Hospital air: Ian had plaguing knee issue at the start of that day. He called me several times that morning for a sanity check because he knew it was “the day,” but his knee was painful and really bugging him. He ignored me and went for it. Seemed like the right call for him.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/californ...i-18603398.php

Wolverine Bowl slide yesterday?

I appreciate the response LSL. Staying in Tahoma and skiing Palisades Monday/Tuesday. Pink pants and sucking wind with a NH accent.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

It's wise to assume inbounds terrain will be as safe as ever, perhaps moreso. Skiing involves some risk, as does life. (/me sees you're an EC skier.) If your goal is a ski-run view of the big blue lake, try Heavenly, Incline, or Homewood. PTOV is a few miles from the shore but also has runs with views to the lake. IMO some Heavenly and Incline runs have impressive views where you may feel you're skiing into it.

Northstar is the go to on storm days - lots of trees and few steeps so more lifts/runs open. Homewood might be decent on a storm day as well. Sierra used to be the south lake storm resort, dunno if that's true now that the forest is burnt (my guess is no trees means vertigo city).

eta: see Page 1 for local info

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

Sierra used to be the south lake storm resort, dunno if that's true now that the forest is burnt (my guess is no trees means vertigo city).

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Sierra isn't the storm resort anymore. All of West Bowl was clear cut and is vertigo city in greybird/whiteout conditions. Grandview still has a bit of shelter, stays low to the ground, and maybe 50% of the trees to on the lower half of the lift were lost. The trees on the top half of the mountain mostly survived and the Castle side is still in ok shape.

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Originally Posted by powbmps

I appreciate the response LSL. Staying in Tahoma and skiing Palisades Monday/Tuesday. Pink pants and rippin' turns screaming "wicked fun!!"with a NH accent.

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FIFY

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Originally Posted by umby

More often than not I just keep my beacon in a ski pant pocket (it has a loop for it to be attached to). Having it in my pocket made it something that was always there and not another layer/item to remember to put on under my patrol vest each time.

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I need to adopt a system like this. I keep my beacon in my avy pack, and it takes a conscious effort on my part to take it out for a resort day. I'm going to move it to my boot pack, also going to adopt the approach of needing a reason to not take it with me, rather than needing a reason to take it.

On this last trip, I dug through my pack and pulled out my shovel so that I would have it for the drive up, but decided I wouldn't need the beacon. We started our day at Red Dog since it was both my and my buddy's first day this season, and we didn't think we were ready to be part of the KT opening day frenzy. I think I owe a beer to the Palisades host that helped reinforce that decision.

My motto is moguls from the dirt up, let no snowflake lay undisturbed.
When I started practicing this mentality we thought that we might see an increase in head injuries, etc. cuz of opening with such low tide.
Knock on wood, that is not the case though definitely an increase in lacs.
When you have moguls from the ground up you are mostly dealing with new snow avys, not deep instability.
If you build a deep snowpack without skiing it from the dirt up, you bridge the weak layer.
Now yer huntin the beast, deep slab.
And ya gotta do it basically every time more water weight is added until it slides or stablizes with time and insulation on the buried weakness.
Skier compaction just makes a harder slab above the buried weakness.
And herein lies a problem.
Initial testing weakens the slope if it doesn't avalanche.
I wait at least 24 hrs after hunting the beast before opening that terrain.
This is not a researched industry standard, just my own thinking.
Those explosives actually help anchor the slope when they freeze overnight forming columns of strength.
Have no idea the mitigation performed in this tragedy and when, just passing on how I personally dealt with deep slab.
And as Bunion said above, the majority of in area avalanche fatalities are deep slab upon opening terrain for the first time that winter.
Can't tell you how many times I crossed my fingers opening up big terrain for the first time when it wasn't possible to make moguls from the ground up.
I should add that we suffered a similar incident at Snowbird on my watch years ago; I've been in those shoes...

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

My motto is moguls from the dirt up, let no snowflake lay undisturbed.
When I started practicing this mentality we thought that we might see an increase in head injuries, etc. cuz of opening with such low tide.
Knock on wood, that is not the case though definitely an increase in lacs.
When you have moguls from the ground up you are mostly dealing with new snow avys, not deep instability.
If you build a deep snowpack without skiing it from the dirt up, you bridge the weak layer.
Now yer huntin the beast, deep slab.
And ya gotta do it basically every time more water weight is added until it slides or stablizes with time and insulation on the buried weakness.
Skier compaction just makes a harder slab above the buried weakness.
And herein lies a problem.
Initial testing weakens the slope if it doesn't avalanche.
I wait at least 24 hrs after hunting the beast before opening that terrain.
This is not a researched industry standard, just my own thinking.
Those explosives actually help anchor the slope when they freeze overnight forming columns of strength.
Have no idea the mitigation performed in this tragedy and when, just passing on how I personally dealt with deep slab.
And as Bunion said above, the majority of in area avalanche fatalities are deep slab upon opening terrain for the first time that winter.
Can't tell you how many times I crossed my fingers opening up big terrain for the first time when it wasn't possible to make moguls from the ground up.
I should add that we suffered a similar incident at Snowbird on my watch years ago; I've been in those shoes...

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Ya I hear you on this one. Same conclusions Knox came to back in the 70s, reinforced by most every PMR (post mitigation release). Gonna have a version of Baugher's PMR paper in the Feb TAR- this Palisades accident fits the same profile.

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Let's imagine (using some mostly made up numbers that I'd say are conservative):
-There are 50 ski areas in the U.S. with avalanche prone powder days
-Each of those resorts has 10 of those avalanche prone days per year
-The average first hour of chairlift capacity at those resorts on one of those powder days is 2000 people (KT22 by itself can load 2,100 people per hour, Collins and Wildcat at Alta can load more than 3,000 people in an hour).
-50% of the runs taken on those powder days will be in avalanche terrain
-There have been ~10 inbounds avalanche fatalities in the last decade, so about one fatality per year

Given those numbers, your chance of dying in an avalanche in a resort if you ski one run on one of those pow days would be 1/50x10x2000x0.5, or a 1 in a 500,000 chance. What is the chance of rescuing someone or getting dug out yourself in time if you have a beacon, probe, and shovel? If it brings your chance of living up by 50% (unlikely), then you'd have a probability of inbounds avalanche death at 1 in a million.

If you take 400 runs like that in your life (which is probably a lot if your resort only has 10 avalanche prone pow days per year as in the made up number above), your lifetime probability of dying in an inbounds avalanche would be 1/1250.

Inbound avalanche fatalities happen, but compared to the amount of people skiing avalanche terrain inbounds, the chance of it happening to you is insubstantial. Ski resorts in the US do a great job mitigating risk, but as other people have mentioned, you can't completely control nature.