Dig stoke, who else likes to play in the dirt???

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Originally Posted by rip

Thanks for coming out! It was a great weekend and a great end to the season. I'm with ya on la cura, I love the top but I'm getting to old to be sending the jumps on the bottom on the daily. That parts for the kiddos :biggrin: We've got very primitive plans to build more steep tech like the top part of the trail. The terrain around there is just asking for it. A lot of places just got rid of their old steep fall line trails when they brought in a company like GL but we are committed to keeping ours around and have done a lot of work to them over the years... To make it look like we haven't done anything at all.

I know everyone says they love black tech but I've hung out in enough different bike parks to know if I go searching the old school trails it's usually pretty empty and everyone is out riding the flow. Which is fine.. I love the flow as well but I like being able to take out my dh bike and smash rocks all day or take my 140 trail bike and pump rollers and boost jumps.

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Flow trails are freaking sweet. I get the fear of everything turning into machine built flow trail and how that would create a sort of McRiding experience everywhere but if you don't have fun on a really well built trail do you really like mountain biking? I mean.....really? :D

You would have enjoyed the old stuff down the front face before the park was a thing. They were so rowdy and steep.

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Originally Posted by grskier

I will say that Snowmass has been doing a good job of both ends of that. Animal Crackers, Cowboy Coffee etc in the bike park, plus the OG race trails that have been getting way more attention (from riders) lately.
But after they spent what they did for Valhalla from GL, I could see wanting some more budget friendly type rides.

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I've watched a bunch of Snowmass park vids on YouTube and it looks awesome. I wanted to get up there this summer but I was in Utah so much I couldn't make it work. SW Utah ain't too shabby either though so I wasn't crying about that.

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

Flow trails are freaking sweet. I get the fear of everything turning into machine built flow trail and how that would create a sort of McRiding experience everywhere but if you don't have fun on a really well built trail do you really like mountain biking? I mean.....really? :D

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Well built ones are really fun. But a lot of them are not well built, or are a missed shot and turn out to be total snoozers. And too many of the good ones end up falling apart in a sea of braking bumps because they get no where near enough maintenance vs the traffic they see.

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Originally Posted by evdog

Well built ones are really fun. But a lot of them are not well built, or are a missed shot and turn out to be total snoozers. And too many of the good ones end up falling apart in a sea of braking bumps because they get no where near enough maintenance vs the traffic they see.

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Totally. Dark Hollow is getting pretty gnarly already.

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Originally Posted by evdog

Well built ones are really fun. But a lot of them are not well built, or are a missed shot and turn out to be total snoozers. And too many of the good ones end up falling apart in a sea of braking bumps because they get no where near enough maintenance vs the traffic they see.

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See: Deepest Darkest at Jackson Hole

I rode the new flow/jump trail Fifty Six Twenty at Revelstoke Mtn in August, so named because it drops 5,620ft. The gondola doesn't go all the way to the top, you have to climb 4 mi / 1700ft to get there. Once you hit the part of the trail that can be accessed direct from the gondola the braking bumps were brutal. I didn't even make it down that far before I was completely over it. Spent the rest of the day trying to ride anything but the flow trails.

They're not brake bumps. They're millions of little doubles.

Its a bit of a broad generalization, but in my opinion braking bumps on excavated flow trails are usually the result of:

1. Trail is too steep. It's a common trap. Excavating is expensive, the way to make it cheaper is to make the trail shorter. If the trail is shorter, the trail is steeper. These problems start to show themselves more as the trail gets more popular. Beyond a certain point, it's impossible for the trail crew to keep up and the trail becomes a sea of braking bumps. Fix the braking bumps on Monday, and they're back by Friday. In less busy trail networks you can get away with it because there isn't enough traffic to really make this problem show itself. This is especially true on blue trails in bike parks. These are almost always the busiest trails in the trail network, and can turn into brake bump factories. The money saved by making the trail cheaper (shorter) is completely offset by the amount of maintenance required. And the riding experience is terrible. No one likes a trail that is and endless procession of braking bumps.

2. No grade reversal into the corner. If people have to grab a handful of brake to slow down just before the corner, you get braking bumps. Of course some people hate grade reversals, and prefer diving corners. Fair enough. But properly designed grade reversals can pretty much eliminate braking bumps into excavated corners. You remove just enough speed that people can ride the corner more or less brakeless, or if the braking zone is slightly uphill, the amount of braking bumps are greatly decreased. Of course if you ruin the flow or slow the trail down too much, you create a completely different problem, and the trail isn't fun.

These are broad generalizations of course, and I'm talking specifically about excavated trails. A super flat trail that you have to pedal into the corners will never have braking bumps but it's also boring to ride. Also, the realities of the terrain available for the trail to be built means that sometimes the trail or the corners get forced into less than ideal locations. Sometimes the best possible alignment means you have one or two corners that are less than ideal. I find that extra time spent in the design is critical. Spend the extra time to really find the best alignment before the excavators show up. Use an inclinometer.

This needs to be balanced out in the overall trail network with singletracks and hybrid trails where you can mostly throw the above rules out and build some diving corners and (much) steeper trails. But the same concept applies. Steep diving corners will eventually get blown up and develop braking bumps. But that can be cool in advanced/expert singletracks. Also, if you're building a private trail that is just for a small number of people, you can excavate way steeper and ditch the grade reversals entirely because the trails won't get the traffic to create braking bumps. Finally, if there isn't enough budget set aside for maintenance, the trails will get wrecked. A lot of places fall down in this respect because they don't appreciate the amount of maintenance that goes into having an excavated trail.

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Originally Posted by Clownshoe

2. No grade reversal into the corner. If people have to grab a handful of brake to slow down just before the corner, you get braking bumps. Of course some people hate grade reversals, and prefer diving corners. Fair enough. But properly designed grade reversals can pretty much eliminate braking bumps into excavated corners. You remove just enough speed that people can ride the corner more or less brakeless, or if the braking zone is slightly uphill, the amount of braking bumps are greatly decreased. Of course if you ruin the flow or slow the trail down too much, you create a completely different problem, and the trail isn't fun.

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I just rode a brand new flow trail in UT where the grade reversals were located on the exit of every single corner instead of the entrance. The berms were also pretty short and ended about 3/4 into the turn. And to tie it all together the trail was incredibly soft (freshly built, no rain in a month, shouldn't have been opened until after the winter IMO). It made for interesting riding as you could haul ass into a corner then run out of support halfway through because of softness or berm disappearance. If you managed to make it out of the corner upright you'd have to hammer on the pedals to crest a little hump and get back into the flow. About 1.5 miles and 20 corners worth of that shit. Can't imagine how well it's going to age...

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Originally Posted by Clownshoe

Its a bit of a broad generalization, but in my opinion braking bumps on excavated flow trails are usually the result of:

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Agree with all of that. The few flow trails I've ridden where braking bumps weren't an issue were less steep and had places to bleed off speed naturally before corners so brake use was minimal. And what do you know, if the trail is well laid out you can still carry plenty of speed even with a more gradual grade.

Did some quick math on Mt Revelstoke.... 5,620ft loss over 8 miles is over 13% grade on average. For me it was a brake dragger from top to bottom. Judging from the braking bumps I'm not the only one....

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Originally Posted by Boissal

I just rode a brand new flow trail in UT where the grade reversals were located on the exit of every single corner instead of the entrance. The berms were also pretty short and ended about 3/4 into the turn. And to tie it all together the trail was incredibly soft (freshly built, no rain in a month, shouldn't have been opened until after the winter IMO). It made for interesting riding as you could haul ass into a corner then run out of support halfway through because of softness or berm disappearance. If you managed to make it out of the corner upright you'd have to hammer on the pedals to crest a little hump and get back into the flow. About 1.5 miles and 20 corners worth of that shit. Can't imagine how well it's going to age...

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This perfectly describes the vast majority of flow trails I've ridden. People hate on them because most of the time it's just that they suck. When built right they are super fun though. The new 10 Gallon trail in Mt. Shasta is a great example of how to do it.

I agree with Clownshoe.

Building trails, good trails, is extremely difficult. Critics who have never built annoy me.

This guy rips and builds pro sanctioned stuff. Rumors he may have built some rogue too. [emoji854] I like the perspective of changing up the trail after the fact. I do that constantly. So difficult to get it right the first go around and especially as it gets ridden in as speed changes.

https://santacruztrails.org/blog/mee...dairies-trails

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

I like the perspective of changing up the trail after the fact. I do that constantly. So difficult to get it right the first go around and especially as it gets ridden in as speed changes.

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That's pretty much it right there. If a flow trail rides perfectly on the first try, that's a rare unicorn. I've ridden trails from some of the best builders in the business that were a bit wonky to start. As long as everyone's OK with going back in after a year or so and making some tweaks, it's not the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

That's pretty much it right there. If a flow trail rides perfectly on the first try, that's a rare unicorn. I've ridden trails from some of the best builders in the business that were a bit wonky to start. As long as everyone's OK with going back in after a year or so and making some tweaks, it's not the end of the world.

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Funny, I may have mentioned this previously, but I have changed many sections or turns after the fact. One spot I changed some turns and when I returned a week or so later someone reverted it back to the original. I did get a chuckle out of it, switched it back and a couple weeks later they did it again. Then I flipped it again! Finally, someone reached out to me inquiring and I said it was me. It stuck then. :smile:

I agree with all of this. Building good trails is really hard. Being a critic is easy. Flow trails especially are magnets for criticism. An excavated green or blue trail is rarely what the Pinkbike or TGR commenters want. The reality is these low end trails (at commercial bike parks) are what pay for the gnarlier stuff. It's like the green and blue groomers at your ski resort. They have to be there to make the financial model work.

Building a fun, safe, entertaining flow trail can be really hard.

There's nothing worse than seeing the internet shit talk what you build. I know I make a specific point of never calling any builders or trails out publicly, unless it's to say something positive.

But sometimes it's warranted. I think it's important to be able to check your ego and go back and change things if they don't work. The "ride line" doesn't lie.

Also: here’s a trail building thing that happened to me 5 minutes ago: Pull starting your saw, ripping the pull handle off and punching yourself in the face.

^^ LOL, sucks but funny

Just finished slapping some dirt after a bunch of torrential downpours yesterday on my pumptrack. After a frustrating work week that is pretty therapeutic. Was planning on cutting out a tree that fell last week on my local trails, but this will do for today.

I had a really great week with ACE crews out in Kingman working on Phase 2 of the White Cliffs project.

https://www.cityofkingman.gov/Home/C...2Y-XCr2CwvSHms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ExSCS31zg

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And to reiterate what's already been said, trail building is hard, being a critic is not. There's often a lot of behind the scenes stuff that the GP doesn't even know about that create unfortunate circumstances or challenges for the builders that can have a substantial impact on the outcome of a project.

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

I had a really great week with ACE crews out in Kingman working on Phase 2 of the White Cliffs project.

https://www.cityofkingman.gov/Home/C...2Y-XCr2CwvSHms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ExSCS31zg

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Looks sweet!

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by skinipenem

Looks sweet!

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For sure! I'll need to plan a detour into my next AZ trip.

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

And to reiterate what's already been said, trail building is hard, being a critic is not. There's often a lot of behind the scenes stuff that the GP doesn't even know about that create unfortunate circumstances or challenges for the builders that can have a substantial impact on the outcome of a project.

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We moved an original planned line because we discovered a spotted salamander living under a dead log. Didn't even know if it was his home or if they're nomads, so maybe we're fools, but f it, it's just a mtn bike trail.

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

We moved an original planned line because we discovered a spotted salamander living under a dead log. Didn't even know if it was his home or if they're nomads, so maybe we're fools, but f it, it's just a mtn bike trail.

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Anything with spots is suspect.

Ha! They're pretty cool and good sized. I've come upon a few over the years. They don't move. Not sure if that's a play dead tactic or not. I just cover them back up and move on.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...72425b44e3.jpg

Freaking cute lil critter. I guess there's some Gila monsters around where we are building right now. I don't think I should hold those though.

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Originally Posted by Clownshoe

I agree with all of this. Building good trails is really hard. Being a critic is easy. Flow trails especially are magnets for criticism. An excavated green or blue trail is rarely what the Pinkbike or TGR commenters want. The reality is these low end trails (at commercial bike parks) are what pay for the gnarlier stuff. It's like the green and blue groomers at your ski resort. They have to be there to make the financial model work.

Building a fun, safe, entertaining flow trail can be really hard.

There's nothing worse than seeing the internet shit talk what you build. I know I make a specific point of never calling any builders or trails out publicly, unless it's to say something positive.

But sometimes it's warranted. I think it's important to be able to check your ego and go back and change things if they don't work. The "ride line" doesn't lie.

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Well written. Midgard in particular is so well done

There’s parts of that trail that still bug me that I want to go back and change. But that ship has sailed lol

This tree on my new trail had me a bit nervous, so my pro arborist and rippin biker took care of it for me. Ended up with beer holder too!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...93b479d09a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5214d75072.jpg

Turned this one into a log ride. Have to tweak the skinny end. Not sure what to do to get up on to it. Hard to tell from pic, but you're about 4' off the ground at one end and there's a boulder you do not want to fall on. I think I will try to move that out of the way. I like clean bail out areas. Getting hurt sucks.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d92fd3c071.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bb9c6ea157.jpg
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Adder pic. The boulder isn't really movable, so I'm building up around it so it's not so protruding. I think dirt will be helpful. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ef418a2ff7.jpg

Hopefully its OK that I post this here. If mags have a problem with it I'll delete it

If any of you machine operator types are looking for a job, we're hiring for next summer in the USA. Feel free to post up any questions here or PM me

https://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/careers

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Originally Posted by Clownshoe

Hopefully its OK that I post this here. If mags have a problem with it I'll delete it

If any of you machine operator types are looking for a job, we're hiring for next summer in the USA. Feel free to post up any questions here or PM me

https://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/careers

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Wow! GL appears to be quite the trail building company.

Last hero day of the year with Bourbon and NWSkier based on temp forecasts!

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Not quite gravity logic, but we've been making one of our pseudo flow trails a bit flowier. Bigger berms (made out of dirt as opposed to mostly rotten logs), more jumps, drainage that actually exists, etc. The weather hasn't really been cooperating, but we'll tidy it up in the spring. Should ride well.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0d9553f9e7.jpg

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

Wow! GL appears to be quite the trail building company.

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Ever hear about the bike park the Canadians have at that little ski area called Whistler?

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Not quite gravity logic, but we've been making one of our pseudo flow trails a bit flowier. Bigger berms (made out of dirt as opposed to mostly rotten logs), more jumps, drainage that actually exists, etc. The weather hasn't really been cooperating, but we'll tidy it up in the spring. Should ride well.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0d9553f9e7.jpg

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Looks real nice Toast!

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

Ever hear about the bike park the Canadians have at that little ski area called Whistler?

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Canada? Do they speak American there?

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

Canada? Do they speak American there?

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No. They speak metric

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Originally Posted by NW_SKIER

No. They speak metric

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Well, sometimes. Their dialect often shifts between metric and imperial inexplicably.

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Originally Posted by NW_SKIER

No. They speak metric

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Ah Metric! I've always wanted to learn, but Americans like 12 better than 10. Bigger is always better for Americans

We were just tasked with four new builds before March. If the snow holds off we may be able to pull it off. It it doesn't we're phucked. The land is going to a town vote, so the goal is to have it complete before then.

My plan is just blow them out and then go back and reroute/fix everything thats a mess after the fact, assuming (big ASSumption!) established trails will be grandfathered, therefore tweaks will be able to be made.