To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

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Originally Posted by DougW

I would never presume that I have the knowledge or background to make a vac or be involved in any way though I did work on a pharma job once. My point which I think you missed was that rich countries did in a timely fashion produce very effective vaccines. Cuba has been making vaccines for years though not on the cutting edge of tech. Yes China isn't socialist really any more but it is a one party state with pretty strong state control of industry, so in a way makes it socialist to a degree by the standard definition of socialism.

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My point which you missed is that it's pretty remarkable that a country with the resources of Cuba can make vaccines. That has to be looked at as a win for socialism, as is the fact that have universal health care. Not that I'm a fan of socialism.

To answer ml242--developing the vaccines was a triumph of science and capitalism (and socialism to a degree)--the mRNA vaccines were developed by small entrepreneurial firms. Remember that Moderna had the private and US govt funding to develop a vaccine despite never having brought one to market--that's the profit driven risk taking upside of capitalism. The Emergent fiasco OTOH is the other side of capitalism, not that the same could have happened under any economic system.

Capitalism is best represented by innovative startups subject to the discipline of the market. It is worst represented by giant multinational corporations who control their markets. And of course by the widening gap between rich and poor, which is inherent in the structure of capitalism (Piketty, "Capital in the 21st Century")

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Originally Posted by old goat

My point which you missed is that it's pretty remarkable that a country with the resources of Cuba can make vaccines. That has to be looked at as a win for socialism, as is the fact that have universal health care. Not that I'm a fan of socialism.

To answer ml242--developing the vaccines was a triumph of science and capitalism (and socialism to a degree)--the mRNA vaccines were developed by small entrepreneurial firms. Remember that Moderna had the private and US govt funding to develop a vaccine despite never having brought one to market--that's the profit driven risk taking upside of capitalism. The Emergent fiasco OTOH is the other side of capitalism, not that the same could have happened under any economic system.

Capitalism is best represented by innovative startups subject to the discipline of the market. It is worst represented by giant multinational corporations who control their markets. And of course by the widening gap between rich and poor, which is inherent in the structure of capitalism (Piketty, "Capital in the 21st Century")

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Here is what Chris Matthews said about Cuba, "Cuba has good education and healthcare for its citizen's, they just haven't figured out how to feed them"

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Originally Posted by bigdude2468

Here is what Chris Matthews said about Cuba, "Cuba has good education and healthcare for its citizen's, they just haven't figured out how to feed them"

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They get enough food, but not too much like the good old USA


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All dosed up with a healthy and exciting mix of AZ and now Moderna an hour ago. Glad to be about to put all this bullshit behind us.

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Originally Posted by old goat

My point which you missed is that it's pretty remarkable that a country with the resources of Cuba can make vaccines. That has to be looked at as a win for socialism, as is the fact that have universal health care. Not that I'm a fan of socialism. ...

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Well you can look at that way that Cuba punched above its weight which is true. But the result compared to big US /global pharma is 6 month late and less effective. But about the same % as Sinovax so still punching above weight. Their motives to fund the endeavor was that didn't trust others would supply and maybe make $$. All countries are going to be looking after this can they really trust allies supply chain so every country will end up having its own vac research and manufacturing capability.

interesting from NYT
One reason that people in Singapore and elsewhere would choose to get a Sinovac shot even when more effective vaccines are available is that they are from mainland China or plan to travel there. Chinese state media organizations have been waging a misinformation campaign that questions the safety of American-made vaccines, and Beijing has said that foreigners who receive Chinese shots will have an easier time getting into the country.

Haters got to hate


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/19/w...02d10920743836

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

All dosed up with a healthy and exciting mix of AZ and now Moderna an hour ago. Glad to be about to put all this bullshit behind us.

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Same, had the AZ first (which kicked my ass for ~36 hours) and got Pfizer this am. Giddyup.

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Originally Posted by old goat

He didn't say. Presumably a vaccine that is 35% effective in preventing infection, will have roughly similar effectiveness in preventing symptomatic disease, hospitalization, and death, based on what has been seen so far with the original strain. The details don't matter as far as the general public* is concerned--clearly one shot mRNA sucks for the delta variant--get both shots. Britain is having to postpone reopening. They have a lot of delta. Perhaps their one shot for everyone first strategy wasn't wise?
There was a lot of discussion months ago about the one shot vs two shot strategy for mRNA vaxes, with the numbers favoring the former, but that was based on data from the trials before the variants had become significant. With 35% effectiveness for one shot instead of 80% or so in the trials the math changes.

*PBS viewership is hardly the "general public". And I do get the impression that the News Hour is kinda hoping the pandemic will never end. They certainly emphasize the bad news over the good--but that's the news biz I guess. It's entirely possible that I will have to eat these words, or rather, just delete the post.

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The TV media business is really hurting right now, down big time after five years of Trump and over a year of pandemic. Even PBS has found it profitable (they survive on eyeballs and ads, too) to create a climate of fear.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

The TV media business is really hurting right now, down big time after five years of Trump and over a year of pandemic. Even PBS has found it profitable (they survive on eyeballs and ads, too) to create a climate of fear.

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People still watch TV? :confused:

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Originally Posted by DougW

interesting from NYT
One reason that people in Singapore and elsewhere would choose to get a Sinovac shot even when more effective vaccines are available is that they are from mainland China or plan to travel there. Chinese state media organizations have been waging a misinformation campaign that questions the safety of American-made vaccines, and Beijing has said that foreigners who receive Chinese shots will have an easier time getting into the country.

Haters got to hate


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/19/w...02d10920743836

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Aren't the Chicomm Chinese vaccines not so effective? Chinese probably didn't get all the data when they hacked Pfizer, Moderna Astazeneca, and J&J.

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Originally Posted by DougW

Well you can look at that way that Cuba punched above its weight which is true. But the result compared to big US /global pharma is 6 month late and less effective. But about the same % as Sinovax so still punching above weight. Their motives to fund the endeavor was that didn't trust others would supply and maybe make $$. All countries are going to be looking after this can they really trust allies supply chain so every country will end up having its own vac research and manufacturing capability.

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You have an interesting cutoff for Sinovac-like: the argument that Cuba's 60% is close to J&J's seems just as strong if comparisons matter, especially since Cuba's should have some variant exposure included. IDK how useful it is to categorize these in groups, though.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Same, had the AZ first (which kicked my ass for ~36 hours) and got Pfizer this am. Giddyup.

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I haven't kept up with the science. Are people just jabbing themselves with multiple versions these days or was there some recommendation for AZ people to double down on Pfizer/Moderna after a certain period?

It's what they're doing in Canada.

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Originally Posted by Art Shirk

I haven't kept up with the science. Are people just jabbing themselves with multiple versions these days or was there some recommendation for AZ people to double down on Pfizer/Moderna after a certain period?

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Yeah, Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunizations updated their vaccine recommendations, the biggest change being for anyone who received AZ as their first shot should receive an mRNA vaccine as their second dose. Creates a better immune response.

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Originally Posted by jono

You have an interesting cutoff for Sinovac-like: the argument that Cuba's 60% is close to J&J's seems just as strong if comparisons matter, especially since Cuba's should have some variant exposure included. IDK how useful it is to categorize these in groups, though.

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That's the number I heard on news and stated be better after 3rd shot. Yes its now difficult to compare shots on an equal footing do to variants. Though the Novavax put out good numbers and they're late to the party also. From this point forward would it make more sense to do the trials against other vacs? head to head and maybe head with no water shot

j&j was 'only' 66% to begin with. not really 'one dose' when the efficacy is half of the mrna and everyone is headed back to get additional shots.

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Originally Posted by PB

^^^^^ THIS
Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to be fully vaccinated with some thing so effective 14 months after the initial outbreak. I was guessing maybe 3-5 years, and maybe 80% effective. But let's all focus only on the bad shit.

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well i thot there are still a whole bunch of vax hesitant or covid denyers or sft ?

the vacines did not happen over night there were years of cumulative research according to the scientists in these links

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/jun-...ines-1.6061099

this guy ^^has been working on the delivery system for 40 yrs

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/mar-...ible-1.5955279

this guy ^^had a spike protein model knocked up in < an hr from existing research

maybe if they spun it differently there wouldnt be so many people thinking it was too fast to be safe ?

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Yeah, Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunizations updated their vaccine recommendations, the biggest change being for anyone who received AZ as their first shot should receive an mRNA vaccine as their second dose. Creates a better immune response.

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It’s also funny how these recommendations also appear to line up with vaccine availability.

At first, oh dear we must pause AZ.
Then AZ about to expire…. So okay 40+ can take it!
Then flood of pfizer/moderna starts to come…. Ummm actually AZ isn’t good anymore get mRNA!

I mean I don’t care they all do the same thing in a slightly different way, just stick me with whatever. I also like how my vaccination receipt from the government doesn’t say I got that greasy AZ first dose - just says I got moderna today and that “you have received 2 valid doses.” Boom. Time to go to Vermont for a beer run.

This moderna thing though has my arm all swollen up in a big goose egg at the injection site. The hell are they putting in these things!!


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Originally Posted by paulster2626

It’s also funny how these recommendations also appear to line up with vaccine availability.

At first, oh dear we must pause AZ.
Then AZ about to expire…. So okay 40+ can take it!
Then flood of pfizer/moderna starts to come…. Ummm actually AZ isn’t good anymore get mRNA!

I mean I don’t care they all do the same thing in a slightly different way, just stick me with whatever. I also like how my vaccination receipt from the government doesn’t say I got that greasy AZ first dose - just says I got moderna today and that “you have received 2 valid doses.” Boom. Time to go to Vermont for a beer run.

This moderna thing though has my arm all swollen up in a big goose egg at the injection site. The hell are they putting in these things!!


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I hear ya, got Pfizer dose two and the Az cocktail kicked my butt. I had the option to do the Az again but with variants Pfizer or moderna are the tits. I’m just happy to be double dosed and able to travel!

A coronavirus outbreak hit a Florida government building. Two people are dead but a vaccinated employee wasn't infected

Two people are dead and four of their coworkers were hospitalized after a Covid-19 outbreak swept through a government building in Manatee County, Florida.

The outbreak began in the IT department, according to Manatee County Administrator Scott Hopes, who is also an epidemiologist. Another person who worked on the same floor but in a different department also tested positive for coronavirus last week.

Of the six people infected, five were hospitalized. One employee who was in the hospital died and another employee who was not hospitalized also died, Hopes told CNN's Erin Burnett.

The only exposed employee in the IT office who was vaccinated did not get infected, Hopes said.

"The clinical presentation gives me concern that we're dealing with a very infectious variant that is quite deadly," Hopes told Burnett.

The government building was closed on Friday as a precaution. It reopened Monday but officials didn't implement a mask requirement, instead keeping them optional.

Hopes said he's encouraging workers who aren't vaccinated to wear a mask and the county is making them available to employees and visitors.

"Clearly masks work, but the vaccine is more important at this point," Hopes said.

Manatee County will offer a Covid-19 vaccine clinic for employees at the administration building on Friday.

Fucking Manatee County. Not surprised.

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Originally Posted by riser3

Fucking Manatee County. Not surprised.

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Srsly.

Attachment 377687

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

well i thot there are still a whole bunch of vax hesitant or covid denyers or sft ?

the vacines did not happen over night there were years of cumulative research according to the scientists in these links

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/jun-...ines-1.6061099

this guy ^^has been working on the delivery system for 40 yrs

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/mar-...ible-1.5955279

this guy ^^had a spike protein model knocked up in < an hr from existing research

maybe if they spun it differently there wouldnt be so many people thinking it was too fast to be safe ?

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Well sure, NOW you can say all that .... but in the beginning? When it was a NOVEL corona virus pathogen?? You know, people making all kinds of wild claims and guesses WITH OUT ANY EVIDENCE?? So any one claiming that we would be where we are now, even with all the covidiots refusing the vaccines, in the early 2020 would have been blowing smoke, just like the rest of us, including trump. So, it's definitely amazing how well things unfolded.

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Originally Posted by KQ

The only exposed employee in the IT office who was vaccinated did not get infected, Hopes said.

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Amazing. Putting the "duh" in Floriduh once again.

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Originally Posted by PB

Well sure, NOW you can say all that .... but in the beginning? When it was a NOVEL corona virus pathogen?? You know, people making all kinds of wild claims and guesses WITH OUT ANY EVIDENCE?? So any one claiming that we would be where we are now, even with all the covidiots refusing the vaccines, in the early 2020 would have been blowing smoke, just like the rest of us, including trump. So, it's definitely amazing how well things unfolded.

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in every day life I see people getting all twisted on FB when a little PR could have prevented it all, I don't remembr anyone putting any spin on the science until now a year later,

in any case one of them guys is a snowboarder from texas so we probably should discount every thing he did maybe even refuse the vax