Police Behaving Badly

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Everyone should be required to do a day or more of ride-along with police to maybe get a sense of danger they face on daily, otherwise "benign" traffic stops. This might add a little compassion for police and the challenges they face.

It's not an excuse for police violence, but there are two sides to the picture.

Firefighters don't enforce the law (except fire code), and don't face violent criminals, so one would expect them to be seen as "heroes" for rescuing the cat outta the tree. Firefighters (some) also treat frequent flyers quite poorly, and sometimes outright violently, when nobody is looking. They are just as jaded as cops in a sense. I worked EMS long ago, and saw what happens when nobody is looking.

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I understand that a cop can be killed every time they make a traffic stop. The figures show the fatality rate for police to be about the 18th worst, with about half of those being car crashes and the like. However, most deaths in other jobs occur suddenly and unexpectedly. While being shot doing a traffic stop or a routine knock on the door is very rare I can understand police being on edge every time they do one. Chronic stress if you will. Still, I expect police officers to put the lives of the public ahead of theirs, like firefighters, and to a lesser extent health care workers during covid. (Don't look at me; I've been retired forever.)

Running up 76 fkughts of stairs carrying 75 pounds of fire hose takes a special kind of person, and it seems like there were a lot of them in the FDNY. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that firefighting in big eastern cities, especially NYC, is a family tradition, so maybe the sense of duty is particularly strong. Police work also tends to be a family job in those cities; I haven't seen any data on whether police misconduct is any higher or lower in places like that.

I do think it is a good idea for people stopped by the police to consider the officer to be stressed out and potentially in fear for his or her life.

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Originally Posted by TBS

Some big open question to me:
1. What spawned such a large police response - at least three motos and a cruiser. I read he was speeding - was it 85 in a 30, or 35 in a 25? And for how long had the cops lit him up before he stopped?

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I'm not sure where I read it but it was something like they "observed" him going around 60 mph. I believe that was what they estimated based on seeing it and I don't think they got him on radar.

I just assumed Hill was being a douche but here we are and shockingly the police were on a power trip.

My partner got pulled over the other day since school is starting and the police decided to do their fucking job. She had brake lights out, which is hilarious given how many cars have expired plates, lights out, no front plate, etc. While writing her a warning he said he could hop in her car and press the brake so she could go to the back and see which lights were out. Sure just hop in my car and make up probable cause for some other shit. She told him "no," which is a fair bit nicer than I would have been. Then again I'd have barely cracked my window to hand them my info.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that firefighting in big eastern cities, especially NYC, is a family tradition, so maybe the sense of duty is particularly strong. Police work also tends to be a family job in those cities

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Let me introduce you to nepotism and preferential hiring. If you're not born into it, you're locked out.

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Originally Posted by I Skied Bandini Mountain

Let me introduce you to nepotism and preferential hiring. If you're not born into it, you're locked out.

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Yeah, that's the down side. Same nepotism with the trades. Well shit--the rich have always been able to hand wealth down from generation to generation. Let working people hand down jobs.

Does anyone know do popo get paid more for responding to a live scene while on duty? How come 12 cars arrive for a fistfight in a convenience store. And does nobody learn to park in Police Academy? These d-bags created more problems by showing up and parking like dickheads.

Anyway, not a single incident - far more terrifying, it is systemic and irreversible if these assh*les have their way. F*ck the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, and especially its ten-time loser Richard Mack. Do not read before bedtime: The Highest Law in the Land, by Jessica Pishko

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Originally Posted by old goat

I do think it is a good idea for people stopped by the police to consider the officer to be stressed out and potentially in fear for his or her life.

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Agreed. HOWEVER, in this particular instance there is no excuse. The cop pulled over a McClaren widely known to belong to Tyreek Hill, 1 block from the players entrance, just before the big game that the cops were providing security for, and inside was the most famous player on the team. You can literally see through the window on the bodycam footage which would be impossible if the window had any decent tint at all. No cop at any point feared for their safety in the slightest.

These cops were pissed that Tyreek Hill didn't respect their authoritay enough. He didnt cower, didnt say "yessuh" or "nossuh", didnt kiss the ring enough and they wanted to show him who actually had the real power in that situation. And as we all saw, these cops did show how unchecked their power is in the moment, and comfortable they are flexing it.

Maybe you saw a different video but from what I saw the tint made it pretty hard to see inside the car. The cops are still aholes.

Some assholes entitled celebrity status has no bearing on any interaction with police, and they do not have the responsibility to identify someone’s celebrity regardless of what fancy car they are driving. The cops didn’t know who Scottie Scheffler was either.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Some assholes entitled celebrity status has no bearing on any interaction with police, and they do not have the responsibility to identify someone’s celebrity regardless of what fancy car they are driving. The cops didn’t know who Scottie Scheffler was either.

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"stop crying."

"When we tell you to do something, you do it, you understand? Not when you want, but when we tell you. You're a little f---- confused."

"Did you have surgery on your ears when we told you to put the window down?"



Cops were yelling the above at a man in handcuffs, on the pavement, who never resisted, is not talking back, and was simply pulled over for speeding. Please, justify it.


The cops knew who they were pulling over (one of the cops is on the video telling the other cops who it was). If the cop felt it unsafe to have Tyreek in the car then pulling him out is fine. How do you justify cuffing him, then gang tackling him, then pulling him up and telling him to go sit on the curb, where they slammed him to the ground again when he tried sitting down, but not quickly enough for their liking?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

"stop crying."

"When we tell you to do something, you do it, you understand? Not when you want, but when we tell you. You're a little f---- confused."

"Did you have surgery on your ears when we told you to put the window down?"



Cops were yelling the above at a man in handcuffs, on the pavement, who never resisted, is not talking back, and was simply pulled over for speeding. Please, justify it.


The cops knew who they were pulling over (one of the cops is on the video telling the other cops who it was). If the cop felt it unsafe to have Tyreek in the car then pulling him out is fine. How do you justify cuffing him, then gang tackling him, then pulling him up and telling him to go sit on the curb, where they slammed him to the ground again when he tried sitting down, but not quickly enough for their liking?

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and handcuffing his two teammates who did nothing threatening.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

The cops knew who they were pulling over (one of the cops is on the video telling the other cops who it was). If the cop felt it unsafe to have Tyreek in the car then pulling him out is fine. How do you justify cuffing him, then gang tackling him, then pulling him up and telling him to go sit on the curb, where they slammed him to the ground again when he tried sitting down, but not quickly enough for their liking?

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Please don't draw conclusions from my statement. My only point was, cops shouldn't have to know celebrity status, it's 100% irrelevant in this discussion.

I agree they were overly aggressive, and Tyreek was acting like an entitled punk (which doesn't justify police behavior), but certainly aggravates it.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Some assholes entitled celebrity status has no bearing on any interaction with police, and they do not have the responsibility to identify someone’s celebrity regardless of what fancy car they are driving. The cops didn’t know who Scottie Scheffler was either.

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Ya, I'ma side with the player on this one. Bad cop, no donut.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

My only point was, cops shouldn't have to know celebrity status, it's 100% irrelevant in this discussion.

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I disagree. Context matters. The celebrity status of the individual, and the timing would tell anyone with common sense that there was no threat present. If thats an average joe on gameday, or even Tyreek at 3am on a tuesday, then sure, the cop needs to see hands to feel safe. But it is simply not believable that the cop was at all threatened by a megastar athlete in a McClaren, in broad daylight, literally a block from the players entrance on gameday. It is simply not believable that the cop thought Tyreek was going to reach for a gun or weapon in that particular situation.

Context matters. Who it is, where they are, and what they are doing are important, and all three were exceedingly obvious. The cop didnt feel his safety was threatened, the cop felt that his authority was being questioned, and so he reacted by cuffing and slamming. Cops are there to serve and protect the public. They are not there to make examples out of people who dare question their authoritay.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

The cop didnt feel his safety was threatened, the cop felt that his authority was being questioned, and so he reacted by cuffing and slamming. Cops are there to serve and protect the public. They are not there to make examples out of people who dare question their authoritay.

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boom

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Everyone should be required to do a day or more of ride-along with police to maybe get a sense of danger they face on daily, otherwise "benign" traffic stops. This might add a little compassion for police and the challenges they face.

It's not an excuse for police violence, but there are two sides to the picture.

Firefighters don't enforce the law (except fire code), and don't face violent criminals, so one would expect them to be seen as "heroes" for rescuing the cat outta the tree. Firefighters (some) also treat frequent flyers quite poorly, and sometimes outright violently, when nobody is looking. They are just as jaded as cops in a sense. I worked EMS long ago, and saw what happens when nobody is looking.

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Why do we need paramilitary units to enforce traffic violations?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Caligrown:

You’re making an assumption that pro athletes have no potential for violence during a routine traffic stop. Also assuming fancy car wasn’t stolen. Athlete wasn’t high on coke. Athlete isn’t a homocidal nut job with CTE. Insert variable.

Cops were dicks, cops over reacted, cops have really dangerous jobs. Celebrities also can be psycho and be just as dangerous as any other citizen.

In terms of paramilitary for traffic stops: almost every country in the world has armed police. Only naivety would assume traffic stops don’t have potential to be very dangerous.

This is why cops get nervous:

“The information is based on FBI data covering all police deaths during traffic stops during an 8-year period. The analysis revealed that 45 percent of the police officers were killed early in the stop. The majority of these were killed during the approach, when they were 6-9 feet from the violator's vehicle. A significant proportion of the police officers were shot while leaving their police vehicles. A substantial number of the violators who killed officers at this juncture had just committed or were wanted for a crime. Violators intended to kill the police officers in 60 percent of the cases. Police officers had some hint of danger in one-third of the cases. Twenty-five percent of the police officers were killed during some sort of roadside argument or scuffle. Seventy-nine percent of the police officers were not wearing vests. The analysis also indicated that all pursuits involve high danger. The videotape advises police officers never to let down their guard. Printed synopsis, statistical summary, instructions to trainers, questions, and discussion topics“

Maybe some people here need to start doing traffic stops, no gun, no radio, just routine traffic stops. What could possibly go wrong?

OK, so they should change the protocols about how they do a traffic stop. Don't bum rush the vehicle with tinted windows if you think the driver is armed. Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, it is the job they voluntarily signed up to do.

On balance, they are fucking clowns. At worst, they act like gangsters with no accountability. I live in a place where people still leave their doors unlocked. Law Enforcement brings the drama upon themselves. And its getting worse.

They’re trained to be cowards. Being a cop is not really a dangerous job. They are reacting to their perceptions

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Caligrown:

You’re making an assumption that pro athletes have no potential for violence during a routine traffic stop. Also assuming fancy car wasn’t stolen. Athlete wasn’t high on coke. Athlete isn’t a homocidal nut job with CTE. Insert variable.

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Context is key. That guy, on that day, in that location, at that time posed zero physical threat, real or imagined. And it's easy to tell that from how the cop treated the situation.


It's a bad idea to be rude to cops.

It's not illegal though, so why is it a bad idea?

Because the odds are so high a cop will then abuse his power against you.


Think about how fucked up it is that EVERYONE's advice is to not do something LEGAL, because it is so likely that police to then do something ILLEGAL in response.

I don’t disagree with your points Cali. But what I find troubling is that we assume ALL cops are this way. Cops perform how many daily interactions in this country? Some huge number. How many are bad?

I have no idea the percentage but the percentage of bad must be really damn low. Does it justify excessive force, no. Did this cop instigate this, yes. Is he likely a douchebag, yes. Was it his first douchebag excessive force interaction, most likely not. I’d Tyreek a punk, yes.

We are judging an entire profession on some really bad apples. But also judging a profession with a lot of good people doing a really horrible job.

We can defund police again, but that seems to have lost political potential because reality is, we need them.

Being a punk isn't illegal.

Not following cops random demands isn't illegal.

Those officers actions were a choice. Yes, there are good cop. They would have handled it differently.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

This is why cops get nervous:

“The information is based on FBI data covering all police deaths during traffic stops during an 8-year period. The analysis revealed that 45 percent of the police officers were killed early in the stop. The majority of these were killed during the approach, when they were 6-9 feet from the violator's vehicle. A significant proportion of the police officers were shot while leaving their police vehicles. A substantial number of the violators who killed officers at this juncture had just committed or were wanted for a crime. Violators intended to kill the police officers in 60 percent of the cases. Police officers had some hint of danger in one-third of the cases. Twenty-five percent of the police officers were killed during some sort of roadside argument or scuffle. Seventy-nine percent of the police officers were not wearing vests. The analysis also indicated that all pursuits involve high danger. The videotape advises police officers never to let down their guard. Printed synopsis, statistical summary, instructions to trainers, questions, and discussion topics“

Maybe some people here need to start doing traffic stops, no gun, no radio, just routine traffic stops. What could possibly go wrong?

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Not sure why you quoted a training video from 1989.

According to this there were 136 fatalities including 47 shooting deaths among all cops in 23. https://nleomf.org/wp-content/upload...port-FINAL.pdf

There are 708,000 police officers. It’s the 22nd most dangerous job and that’s mostly due to traffic accidents.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Not sure why you quoted a training video from 1989.

According to this there were 136 fatalities including 47 shooting deaths among all cops in 23. https://nleomf.org/wp-content/upload...port-FINAL.pdf

There are 708,000 police officers. It’s the 22nd most dangerous job and that’s mostly due to traffic accidents.

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Is it any less relevant?

Citing deaths alone as the primary end point is like saying a school shooting isn't a big deal if only 10 kids got shot and none were killed. It doesn't capture the true danger/result.

We'll never successfully address the "police behaving badly" issue w/out completely remaking police culture. Even so called good cops "go along to get along", and stand behind the "thin blue line" - that is the core issue. There are virtually no individual cops able to stand up to corruption and when the rare one gets into power(Keechant Sewell, NYPD) they are quickly kicked to the curb when some cop needs cover for a misdeed or crime.