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Isn't this exactly how you have to drive in NYC anyhow? If there is a gap in traffic, make a move to get in there and the driver behind will yield. I was just talking about this with my wife's uncle this weekend. He drove taxis in NYC for 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
Anyone who has white knuckled in the back of a cab in NY has witnessed this.
Comparing NYC cycling or driving behavior to anywhere else in the country is silly.
I was getting at something a bit different than just how you have to make space for yourself--I'm talking about the literally absurd shit you see cyclists do every moment of the day. They routinely fly through red lights at full speed and turn into moving traffic without even glancing at oncoming cars. They know the cars see them and will yield, even though the cyclist is breaking several traffic laws at once. If drivers tried that shit they'd get ticketed constantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by joetron
Now, not all cyclists do this, and I would never try it myself (I've never really biked in the city but used to roller blade everywhere--I'd go through lights all the time, but I'd never just fly into traffic without checking and rely on everyone else yielding to me). My brother was a bicycle messenger for awhile, and according to him cars more or less follow rule, but the only people stupider about traffic than cyclists are pedestrians (IMO it's at best a tie).
For the record, I'm in favor of sharing the road, I always give a lot of room to bikes, and I have no problem with going slow behind a bike when they're forced into the road and can't go as fast as a car. But I've seen a lot of either oblivious or entitled behavior that just pisses everyone off and makes things worse. I can understand why people get so pissed at cyclists--I think the bike people are fooling themselves if they don't acknowledge this (and the fact that there are assholes driving cars doesn't change what some cyclists are doing).
I think the fact that this is sort of a moral crusade for some people just increases the temperature and makes rational discussion difficult.
Obviously NYC is different than other places, but the fact that bikes are exempt from any sorts of rules seems more universal (been driving here since 94 and am way too familiar with idiot cyclists--and drivers, motorcycles, etc.). Probably worth noting that I have two friends who were seriously injured by cyclists (both had to have orthopedic surgery, and one had to have trauma surgery and a fairly long hospital stay). I also have two or three friends who were hit by cars while crossing the street, but I assume given how many more cars there are you can't look at it as equivalent.
You natives are going to love Ft. Morgan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
I moved out of state many, many years ago. It's too douched-out with shitstain New Yorkers and Texans: those assholes don't even know how to drive!Quote:
Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw
Just saw another good one driving on the frontage road wb through Clear Creek. I'm the only car there and come up on the only bicycle. Dude's cycling, in the shoulder, doing every fucking thing you could ask a bicyclist to do... Until I approach, at which time he decides he has to pull into the traffic lane, forcing me into the oncoming lane to avoid him.
No one would have ever been the wiser.
What did he have to say when you asked him what that move was about?
It didn't occur to me to ask, but I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by FLS
in NYC?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
HAHAHAHAHA
he already recognized you so what good would it have done :fmicon:Quote:
Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw
You drive a lot in NYC?Quote:
Originally Posted by acinpdx
Post a video of you personally running a red light in midtown (11th Avenue at 3am on a tuesday doesn't count) and I'll paypal you $5 toward your ticket.
I had a similiar experience coming down from Mt. Lemmon/Summerhaven to Tucson...such a great ride!Quote:
Originally Posted by FLS
thx, that fiver makes it all worth it!Quote:
Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw
I lived there in the 90s
the absurdity of ticketing red light infractions or even the notion that drivers are worried about it is laughable...the only time NYC police deal with traffic citations is when they're making quotas or it's convenient to some other enforcement in progress
buses wouldn't come close to any kind of scheduled route if they didn't run lights regularly
the hubris of pretending cyclists are the epitome of lawlessness in NYC is rich
(even discounting the fact that cyclists DO blatantly flaunt the law there, which they absolutely do)
i feel much safer moving, momentum is crucial to safetyQuote:
Originally Posted by frorider
just like on a MTB, bad shit happens when you brake
How much have you driven here? I can tell you for an absolute fact that if a driver ran light right and left and made illegal, rolling (full speed) rights on red like cyclists do they would get multiple tickets every day. In the past year I have received a ticket for a taillight and for using a cell phone, and I got pulled over a few years ago for (maybe) running a red light (IMO it was still yellow and the cop let me go). Drivers absolutely get tickets here, and there are regular ticket blitzes. I got a speeding ticket on the WS Highway years ago during one such blitz, so I'd say you don't know what you're talking about. Cyclists in NYC are completely lawless, and the one time that they tried enforcing some regulations against them the cycling community acted as if they were being rounded up for death camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by acinpdx
BTW, just drove back from Chelsea, and at a single red light I thought about it (usually don't notice) and counted three cyclists (two were delivery guys) running the light, and two others riding against traffic (the wrong way). You seriously don't know what you're talking about.
edit: would love to see numbers on traffic violations issued for cars vs. bicycles in NYC. I'm guessing the ratio is over 100:1. And I don't really see what you're saying about buses, unless you count when they pull into intersections without enough space and end up there during the red light (blocking the box). I regularly see buses start to slow down when the light is still green and about to turn yellow (I've seen them pretty much run lights as well, but again, nothing close to what bicycles do, and probably with 1/100 the frequency).
double edit: was curious so I just had a look. Seems that every year NYPD issues over 1 million moving violations to motorists, and I couldn't easily find full stats on cycles, but in one month recently about 900 cycling tickets were issued in Brooklyn and Manhattan (where probably 80% of cyclists are, I would guess). So say in the other boroughs there is the same number, and over a year you've got about 20k tickets issued.
triple edit: just saw that the 900 ticket number for Manhattan and Bkln was during a Citibike blitz, and the monthly number before that was about half, so maybe 10k tickets usually issued. Still didn't find a solid number.
Somewhere, Hugh is smiling on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
Please don't tell me you're switching to a position of "people should confine themselves to topics they actually know" at this stage. That could be devastating to this otherwise fine thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
People--drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, people who never leave the house at all--are perverse. Example--I used to run in McKinley Park in Sacto on the dirt jogging path. Walkers shun the immediately adjacent paved sidewalk and walk in large groups on the path. I also used to ride on the American river bike path. There the walkers shun the excellent dirt shoulder and walk on the pavement, usually on the wrong side. People just seem to like getting in someone else's way. (Like the guy do 25 in a 55 on 89 today, 10 cars backed up, and the guy refused to use one of the numerous pullouts. And he wasn't even old--or at least he wasn't as old as me.)
We're growing a lot of pricks in this country who have nothing better to do that obstruct the rest of the population... That's what we get for more fully criminalizing simple assault.
FIFY.Quote:
Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw
Having given up nearly eight minutes of my life following a horse trailer today I really wanted to agree with the first version but I don't think the horse folk show nearly enough dedication.
Not switching at all. But if you claim something that isn't true, based on supposed experience, then I guess all bets are off. Saying that vehicles that go 1/5 the speed of other vehicles should stay on the purpose built road that exists for them (and have to deal with other slow vehicles, like everyone else) isn't making an untrue claim, AFAIK.Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
edit: and if you're going to ask that only people with informed, reliable opinions post in threads you'd have like three people posting in each thread. Max. Kinda goes against the scattershot spirit of this place.
Oblivious people without sense. Obviously this doesn't exist in a lot of places since people don't walk in cities in the U.S., but you get this on the sidewalk all the time. I think sidewalk rage is much more common here than road rage. Oblivious people (sometimes tourists, sometimes not) just stopping to look at something, or walking slowly alongside each other blocking those behind them. Kind of like cyclists, now that I think about it. I think it got so bad in Times Square they've designated walking 'lanes' for people. Not sure how it worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
AFAYK. Of course, AFAYK the speed limit on a road adjacent to a bike path is five times faster than bikes travel on said road, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess that maybe your experience driving from Chelsea shouldn't really inform the traffic laws in other states. I mean, that's possible, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
Not sure I specifically said anything about traffic laws in other states (as you pointed out, I am basing much of this on my own experience, which also includes a lot of driving out of state), but regardless (unless someone mentions something I'm unaware of) I would still say bikes belong on the bike path, and the argument that they don't belong there because people are going too slow for them is no more convincing than the argument that bikes shouldn't be allowed on roads because they're going too slow. Bikes can slow down just like cars, and we shouldn't pretend that a cyclist's burden in slowing down for people on the bike path is somehow unacceptable when you're simultaneously claiming drivers have to tolerate exactly the same thing (due to cyclists) when there isn't a bike path. If drivers can deal with it, so can cyclists. They just need to slow down to a safe speed and pass when safe--like drivers do all the time (actually, the bike path in Chelsea along the West Side Highway is a good example of this working--no cyclists ride on the highway, and the bike path has all sorts of people on it, but the cyclists manage to pass and slow down without apparent trouble--if you really need an unencumbered ride on that particular path I guess you just have to pick the right time). I think it's just being considerate--you don't make everyone else slow down for you just because the road made for your vehicle doesn't allow you the complete freedom you would like. Don't get why cyclists think they should force everyone else to slow down just so they can do what they want. If the situation were reversed and somehow cars were on bike paths ruining whatever cyclists were trying to do I'm pretty sure the pro-bike crowd would find it outrageous. Personally I'm having trouble understanding why this suggestion (which I think a bunch of other people have also suggested) is a problem--unless you really just believe cyclists have an inherent right to do what they want regardless of how it affects others.
edit: to repeat that I personally go out of my way to only pass cyclists when it's very safe--usually try to be a minimum of five feet (or better, a full lane) apart from them. I used to ride a bit on country roads with no bike path and have experienced cars making stupid passes way too close. Last thing I (or most drivers, I assume) would want is to hit someone. I just think the consideration should go both ways.
I think you may have read too much into the earlier comments if you don't mean "it should be the law" when you say "bikes should be on the bike path." As a general matter in normal conditions that idea goes without saying. It's only the question of who is best equipped to decide the exceptions that's really worth discussing. As I mentioned earlier, the cyclist that decides to take the road should have already considered conditions and traffic on both and if, after doing so he opts to trade a little of his own safety for taking the road I don't think that's worth second guessing, particularly by a person whose knowledge of conditions is less and whose personal risk is basically zero. Whining about being inconvenienced is just that: it's one person wishing another would choose differently for their benefit. Sometimes they have a point and sometimes they're just selfish, but when they're ignorant of reality on top of whatever selfishness they bring to it that doesn't exactly build credibility.
Well, OK. It seems we probably agree. However, if I recall correctly, this thread was originally about cyclists who seem oblivious to their impact (or are intentionally trying to be aggravating) to motorists. And I've definitely seen that, along with bad behavior by drivers toward otherwise unobjectionable cyclists (which is probably worse in the sense that it's generally a greater danger). If there are cyclists who decide that their desire to ride alongside each other (for example) is more important than the ability of everyone else to pass quickly and safely, then that's wrong. Likewise if a cyclist rides on the road when a bike path is available just because they prefer not being occasionally slowed by other bike path users, that seems wrong. Obviously if there is some safety issue that 'forces' a cyclist onto the road instead of a bike path I would have no problem with that, and yeah, drivers may misinterpret that decision sometimes. But my original impression of the thread was that the impetus was cyclists who were just being difficult to prove a point or something. And whoever posted about cyclists choosing the road just so they don't have to (sometimes) bike slower I think makes the point about whining about being inconvenienced. There's no reason cyclists should be exempt from inconvenience (especially when they insist others need to endure the same inconvenience that they are causing).